Shaving accusation

[CurrentlySober]

OK, so I know the source isnt the best, and I have no idea if its true.

But I thought I'd share with GFY...

Here yah go.

[rayadp05]

I have personally known Neil for 5 years now. I have been over at his house on multiple occasions and he has always been a real nice and trustworthy type of guy. Sure, I am not 100% sure either way regarding this email information....but I will say that from my personal experiences in dealing with him, he has always been very cool, fair and trustworthy type of guy. I smell bullshit with this email.

[CurrentlySober]

Well, let me just say that I dont know Neil, I dont have anything on clips for sale, and I dont have a dog in the fight.

I simply posted it as 'Something I saw elsewhere, that *may* be of interest to gfy'...

[KillerK]

I don't doubt it, shaving is all over the place.

[rayadp05]

Originally Posted by CurrentlySober

Well, let me just say that I dont know Neil, I dont have anything on clips for sale, and I dont have a dog in the fight.

I simply posted it as 'Something I saw elsewhere, that *may* be of interest to gfy'...

No problem guy - and like I said, I really don't know for sure. I am just saying that this doesn't sound like the Neil that I know but I don't know for sure either way.

[cjhmdm]

Originally Posted by rayadp05

I have personally known Neil for 5 years now. I have been over at his house on multiple occasions and he has always been a real nice and trustworthy type of guy. Sure, I am not 100% sure either way regarding this email information....but I will say that from my personal experiences in dealing with him, he has always been very cool, fair and trustworthy type of guy. I smell bullshit with this email.

That's what everyone said about Chris Mallick too..

Just remember, you never really know someone...

[rayadp05]

Originally Posted by cjhmdm

That's what everyone said about Chris Mallick too..

Just remember, you never really know someone...

I hear what your saying and I agree - but I never said that Neil wasn't involved in this. I simply stated that this doesn't sound like the Neil that I know and that my personal experiences with him have always been very positive.

I am not Neil...so I don't know.

[DWB]

I believe it. Don't put anything past anyone these days.

There are some others shaving that I know about as well but I'm not going to open that can of worms and end up sued. Not worth it because all of you dick heads would keep using them anyway.

[comeplay]

Originally Posted by DirtyWhiteBoy

I believe it. Don't put anything past anyone these days.

There are some others shaving that I know about as well but I'm not going to open that can of worms and end up sued. Not worth it because all of you dick heads would keep using them anyway.

maybe you could put a series of hints within a barcode..

[DWB]

Originally Posted by comeplay

maybe you could put a series of hints within a barcode..

Maybe a barcode within a barcode, encrypted, and then a series of hints?

Honestly, if I thought it would make any difference at all I would out a few right now, with one of them being a fucking bombshell. But the truth is it could make every news source and board from here to China and 99.999% of the people would just keep on sending them traffic or using their service. Not worth the hassle, the bannings or the law suits that would come from it. Ya'll niggiz is on your own.

[CaptainHowdy]

Just passing by...

[Paul Markham]

The only way to find out is to make some buys and see what comes up in your stats.

It's easy enough to do and until I see someone who has done this and the results I'm undecided.

We stopped submitting to C4S when the returns dived.

[TheSenator]

nothing new here....move on and close this thread.

[SwirlsGirl]

Originally Posted by CurrentlySober

Well, let me just say that I dont know Neil, I dont have anything on clips for sale, and I dont have a dog in the fight.

I simply posted it as 'Something I saw elsewhere, that *may* be of interest to gfy'...

Very Kind of you to post this type of thread, definitely turns me on when an industry colleague grows a set and calls out a big fish.

I will add that I suspected RIPS4SALE shaved sales a few months ago in sept 2010 (even made thread about it) when I saw the order of my top selling clips rotate and completely change about 10 times in one day with ZERO sales coming in.

There were fresh updated clips added to store...then top selling clips order started shuffling away like they would if sales come in, and in lo and behold not a stinking dime came in for two days.

I called clips4sale on it and was promised a return call and answer but no one ever responded.

They were forced to admit that your top clip order should never change without a sale!!!!!!!!

Now if you still doubt that this is happening on a larger scale than any of us would believe, then just wait until the disgruntled ex employee from your FAVORITE processor comes forward, and you will see the shockwaves unleashed through this industry.

Thats why at all costs life, limb, included, "they" will use all available resources to keep a lid on what is and has been happening to our sales!

[SwirlsGirl]

Skip Sale PHP CODE.......LOL Now I never would have guessed!!!!

You mean, when hundreds of webmasters report Monday 10 sales, tuesday 15 sales, wednesday 0 sales, then thursday back to 16 sales......

You mean like that kind of SKIP SALES activity....LOL

Let him that is deceived be decieved...gotta love sheister logic...."if they are that dumb to trust us with their sales .....screw them and their money.....HEHEEHEHEHE"

[sologirlcontent]

Originally Posted by rayadp05

I have personally known Neil for 5 years now. I have been over at his house on multiple occasions and he has always been a real nice and trustworthy type of guy. Sure, I am not 100% sure either way regarding this email information....but I will say that from my personal experiences in dealing with him, he has always been very cool, fair and trustworthy type of guy. I smell bullshit with this email.

money corrupts ALL..nice or not

[Va2k]

This would make a lot of since come to think about it now!

[CyberHustler]

Originally Posted by SwirlsGirl

Now if you still doubt that this is happening on a larger scale than any of us would believe, then just wait until the disgruntled ex employee from your FAVORITE processor comes forward, and you will see the shockwaves unleashed through this industry.[/SIZE]

More info please...

[signupdamnit]

Originally Posted by rayadp05

I have personally known Neil for 5 years now. I have been over at his house on multiple occasions and he has always been a real nice and trustworthy type of guy. Sure, I am not 100% sure either way regarding this email information....but I will say that from my personal experiences in dealing with him, he has always been very cool, fair and trustworthy type of guy. I smell bullshit with this email.

Doesn't mean much. People often tend to specify different ways of acting with different people. It's easy for a sponsor to come up with a justification for shaving their affiliates (or partners).

"I do most of the work anyway."
"I'm the one taking most of the risk."
"Affiliates are overpaid for what they do. They don't deserve that much."
"Most of these guys are just part timers. I'm only taking their beer money."
"Everyone shaves. I'm not as bad as company X."
"They should be happy I allow affiliates"
"If they don't like it let them make their own site"
"I'm only protecting myself against affiliate fraud."
"They'd be working at McDonalds if it weren't for me."

etc.

I don't know whether these particular allegations are true or not but I would not be surprised. If you don't think you are being shaved in general within this industry I think you're incredibly naive. Sure not everyone does it but it's very common and often it's not even hidden all that well. Usually the sponsor's attitude about related things kind of tips their hand to show what they think of the relationship between themselves and affiliates. After all, chances are if they have the guts to openly take sales from you they also have the guts to do so behind the scenes too. Numbers often give it away as well.

[SwirlsGirl]

Oh wait a minute, do you mean like.... 200 member discrepancy from server logins versus admin sales????

Do you mean, could the skip sale code cause 200 extra logins to be generated without 200 credits showing up in admin???? 200 x 29.95 = $5705.00

$5705.00 not a bad slice of shave for ONE WEBSITE is it?? Just divide it up between a few programmers and company reps, and keep it moving...thats how we roll, we the shit

"The slaves can't touch us, what they going to do?? we bad, they can't stop us from shaving, if they stop us from shaving they ruin it for everyone else in the biz...LOL we are invincible....yeah we gangsta with it"

[spazlabz]

Originally Posted by SwirlsGirl

Now if you still doubt that this is happening on a larger scale than any of us would believe, then just wait until the disgruntled ex employee from your FAVORITE processor comes forward, and you will see the shockwaves unleashed through this industry.

Thats why at all costs life, limb, included, "they" will use all available resources to keep a lid on what is and has been happening to our sales!

OH quit teasing and dish girlfriend dish!!

[cherrylula]

well ya don't say! congrats to the weiners as usual.

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by SwirlsGirl

Oh wait a minute, do you mean like.... 200 member discrepancy from server logins versus admin sales????

Do you mean, could the skip sale code cause 200 extra logins to be generated without 200 credits showing up in admin???? 200 x 29.95 = $5705.00

$5705.00 not a bad slice of shave for ONE WEBSITE is it?? Just divide it up between a few programmers and company reps, and keep it moving...thats how we roll, we the shit

"The slaves can't touch us, what they going to do?? we bad, they can't stop us from shaving, if they stop us from shaving they ruin it for everyone else in the biz...LOL we are invincible....yeah we gangsta with it"

not sure if it's that easy, at least in my case the security script and my own DB would not let this happen

[ShellyCrash]

Originally Posted by DirtyWhiteBoy

Honestly, if I thought it would make any difference at all I would out a few right now, with one of them being a fucking bombshell. But the truth is it could make every news source and board from here to China and 99.999% of the people would just keep on sending them traffic or using their service.

QFT

[CyberHustler]

So, what sponsors have been proven to shave like this and still receive 99.999% of peoples traffic?

[nation-x]

I would like to take this opportunity to point out that Elevated X has a great plugin that allows it's version 3.2 users to run their own token based clips store and will work with NATS 4 or CCBILL Dynamic Pricing (which allows you to change pricing on the fly).

[Barefootsies]

"Shaving" is something done by shady companies, or those on their way out of business. Not companies who are making money hand over fist like Clips4Sale.

Sounds like some piss ant with an axe to grind against C4S. Probably for getting their store cut off for not having licensed content or some variant.

[signupdamnit]

Originally Posted by NanoBot

So, what sponsors have been proven to shave like this and still receive 99.999% of peoples traffic?

"Proven" is a tough one. Exactly what does that mean? But in my experience look towards the top and you'll see quite a few. Any programmer will tell you that almost anything is possible. You could set it to simply discard a % of clicks and sales or you might do something more complex such as shave off 80% of all growth (from an average past baseline) so it might appear to the affiliate that their traffic and sales levels are about the same over time when they have actually been rising a much greater level than shown (a very clever trick). Or perhaps you might set a minimum conversion ratio. The affiliate could really be doing 1:300 but the program is set up to never allow the affiliate to be shown ratios better than 1:1000. The extra sales are pocketed and the affiliate just thinks his traffic is average when it's actually much better. Also don't assume that everyone is treated the same. That rep checking you out for fraud when you sign up just as well could also be deciding what to set the shave factor to. Think about it. What better way to be selective about it?

Most people who are relatively sure aren't going to come out and say it on the boards (especially not here) because they don't want to risk all the drama. But hit up a few close webmaster friends in private and ask candidly and you might be surprised. Some will be misunderstandings or bullshit but others will be real.

Btw, someone good with numbers and familiar with techniques could conceivable reverse engineer (in addition to simple test signups) any shaving algorithm. It's not something that is impossible to detect but it seldom is. There have been whitepapers on the subject in the past.

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

"Shaving" is something done by shady companies, or those on their way out of business. Not companies who are making money hand over fist like Clips4Sale.

Sounds like some piss ant with an axe to grind against C4S. Probably for getting their store cut off for not having licensed content or some variant.

i admire your trust and optimism

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

i admire your trust and optimism

There is something to be said for actually knowing the owner (Neil) for the better part of a decade. Not just spit balling accusations around, and feeding the flames, based on some unknown stranger on the message board giving half the story.

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

There is something to be said for actually knowing the owner (Neil) for the better part of a decade. Not just spit balling accusations around, and feeding the flames, based on some unknown stranger on the message board giving half the story.

there's people who said that about Chris Mallick too

i cannot say if it's true or not what that guy wrote - technically possible it is.

but nowadays i won't put my hands in the fire for anyone anymore

[signupdamnit]

Originally Posted by signupdamnit

Btw, someone good with numbers and familiar with techniques could conceivable reverse engineer (in addition to simple test signups) any shaving algorithm. It's not something that is impossible to detect but it seldom is. There have been whitepapers on the subject in the past.

Just to back up my statement here is a very old one which is focused on click shaving (when PPC was more common). Most have undoubtedly already seen this one.

"Detecting Hit Shaving in Click-Through Payment Schemes"
http://www.usenix.org/event/ec98/ful...ter/reiter.pdf

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

there's people who said that about Chris Mallick too

i cannot say if it's true or not what that guy wrote - technically possible it is.

but nowadays i won't put my hands in the fire for anyone anymore

I understand your point of view fine sire. However, "technically possible" is not PROOF of accusation that some company is doing something. CCBill could "technically possible" skim sales as well. Not paying the affiliate or the website owner while allowing access. We could play these 'possibilities' all day long. That does not make them fact.

I require more than speculation from some stranger on the internet before I pass judgement on another company. While many on GFY relish smearing someone's business and livelihood over speculation, and agenda setting. I require a bit more meat on the bone.

[Kolargol]

If there are customers who bought video clips and they were not counted then someone should probably get emails from one of these customers just like we get emails from counted customers.

[Agent 488]

links pulled.

[sologirlcontent]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

there's people who said that about Chris Mallick too

i cannot say if it's true or not what that guy wrote - technically possible it is.

but nowadays i won't put my hands in the fire for anyone anymore

Quote for truth

[sologirlcontent]

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

"Shaving" is something done by shady companies, or those on their way out of business. Not companies who are making money hand over fist like Clips4Sale.

Sounds like some piss ant with an axe to grind against C4S. Probably for getting their store cut off for not having licensed content or some variant.

You are the LAST person, that should speak about people not ripping people off..since you tried to take your money back from me through a Paypal charge back for content you received months prior, ultimately getting both of our accounts closed. so this is where I politely say fuck u and your opinion

[Agent 488]

haven'e people being saying sales have went to shit after that dude took over? so it makes sense.

[DWB]

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

"Shaving" is something done by shady companies, or those on their way out of business. Not companies who are making money hand over fist like Clips4Sale.

Companies and people are only shady when they are caught. Until then, they are ALWAYS honest and upstanding people.

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by sologirlcontent

You are the LAST person, that should speak about people not ripping people off..since you tried to take your money back from me through a Paypal charge back for content you received months prior, ultimately getting both of our accounts closed. so this is where I politely say fuck u and your opinion

1. My account was not closed. Yours was.

2. Anyone can run a search on all your previously banned nicks, and that should sum it up nicely.

Carry on.

[Jim_Gunn]

How about creating a more descriptive header that says C4S or Clips4Sale shaving accusation insteadof just "Shaving accusation"?

[Deej]

Well this thread should get crazy... or lame...

Seen two unfounded accusations so far...

[ShellyCrash]

Originally Posted by NanoBot

So, what sponsors have been proven to shave like this and still receive 99.999% of peoples traffic?

People still by and large support the companies that supported Zango / spyware. That's the first thing that comes to my mind anyway. While it may not be an example of shaving, it is a very public example of stealing both traffic and potential sales not only from other sponsors but from the affiliates who worked hard to promote them.

[SwirlsGirl]

Originally Posted by signupdamnit

"Proven" is a tough one. Exactly what does that mean? But in my experience look towards the top and you'll see quite a few. Any programmer will tell you that almost anything is possible. You could set it to simply discard a % of clicks and sales or you might do something more complex such as shave off 80% of all growth (from an average past baseline) so it might appear to the affiliate that their traffic and sales levels are about the same over time when they have actually been rising a much greater level than shown (a very clever trick). Or perhaps you might set a minimum conversion ratio. The affiliate could really be doing 1:300 but the program is set up to never allow the affiliate to be shown ratios better than 1:1000. The extra sales are pocketed and the affiliate just thinks his traffic is average when it's actually much better. Also don't assume that everyone is treated the same. That rep checking you out for fraud when you sign up just as well could also be deciding what to set the shave factor to. Think about it. What better way to be selective about it?

Most people who are relatively sure aren't going to come out and say it on the boards (especially not here) because they don't want to risk all the drama. But hit up a few close webmaster friends in private and ask candidly and you might be surprised. Some will be misunderstandings or bullshit but others will be real.

Btw, someone good with numbers and familiar with techniques could conceivable reverse engineer (in addition to simple test signups) any shaving algorithm. It's not something that is impossible to detect but it seldom is. There have been whitepapers on the subject in the past.

brilliantly detailed,written,and explained and is NOT the kind of dialogue that company reps and managers like to see between clients...

[Deej]

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

I understand your point of view fine sire. However, "technically possible" is not PROOF of accusation that some company is doing something. CCBill could "technically possible" skim sales as well. Not paying the affiliate or the website owner while allowing access. We could play these 'possibilities' all day long. That does not make them fact.

I require more than speculation from some stranger on the internet before I pass judgement on another company. While many on GFY relish smearing someone's business and livelihood over speculation, and agenda setting. I require a bit more meat on the bone.

That pushing it with the sideskirting, question mark after the statement bullshit isnt it?

You lay that out about ccbill and then follow it up with a self contradicting and self righteous remark like that ?? Good stuff man

If you were just using them as an example... poor use of choice and words...

[Tjeezers]

Originally Posted by signupdamnit

Doesn't mean much. People often tend to specify different ways of acting with different people. It's easy for a sponsor to come up with a justification for shaving their affiliates (or partners).

"I do most of the work anyway."
"I'm the one taking most of the risk."
"Affiliates are overpaid for what they do. They don't deserve that much."
"Most of these guys are just part timers. I'm only taking their beer money."
"Everyone shaves. I'm not as bad as company X."
"They should be happy I allow affiliates"
"If they don't like it let them make their own site"
"I'm only protecting myself against affiliate fraud."
"They'd be working at McDonalds if it weren't for me."

etc.

I don't know whether these particular allegations are true or not but I would not be surprised. If you don't think you are being shaved in general within this industry I think you're incredibly naive. Sure not everyone does it but it's very common and often it's not even hidden all that well. Usually the sponsor's attitude about related things kind of tips their hand to show what they think of the relationship between themselves and affiliates. After all, chances are if they have the guts to openly take sales from you they also have the guts to do so behind the scenes too. Numbers often give it away as well.

That sums it up nicely

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by Deej

If you were just using them as an example... poor use of choice and words...

You completely missed the point, but with you, that's nothing new.

Carry on.

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by Jim_Gunn

How about creating a more descriptive header that says C4S or Clips4Sale shaving accusation insteadof just "Shaving accusation"?

That wouldn't make it quite as spicy now would it?

[Deej]

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

You completely missed the point, but with you, that's nothing new.

Carry on.

No i didnt miss the point.

To me it looks like you have a hidden bone with CCBill and just used this thread as an excuse to badmouth them under guise.

THats what it looks like. But then I realized you at times choose your words poorly.

Either way. Douche move...

[Tjeezers]

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

"Shaving" is something done by shady companies, or those on their way out of business. Not companies who are making money hand over fist like Clips4Sale.

Than there is something called " Greed "
When a company is on its way out caused by a economical crisis, it is not by definition impossible they handle the same strategy like the bigger companies did to survive, car companies, banks, phones, etc, they cut back. And you can call it shaving or cutting, but when shit hits the van, and your boat is overloaded, first thing you throw away are those things you can buy new again somewhere else. In this case, your affiliates.... Internet is a very fragile instrument, often under or over estimated, and for sure there are people daily making choices between good and right, and those people are everywhere.

These managers who sell shaving as an " Dump your baggage to safe the boat " strategy do not have to work by definition for shady companies. The word shaving is now replaced by good sounding synonyms that sound acceptable and are sold to us in smoke cloud lines, we should feel better. Lot of sponsors play with their affiliates on that way. I dont border me calling them out here. But they used also strategies this year that actually cut in the pockets of the affiliate, and brings them cash on the long run with a higher result of earnings for them. I mean, I call it shaving, someone else calls is a Cut Back. And some people call it a budget necessary evil.


So your " i`ll draw a line between good and wrong " is just not doing it for me. You cant tell me Shaving is by definition connected to shady companies.