Should you hire web programmers or just learn to do it yourself?

[clickhappy]

If you want to build your own data driven websites how hard is it to learn how to program? Can you go from 0 to really good in a few months?
And it php the only thing you really need to learn?

I usually just buy a system but then I have to hire someone to customize it, and Im wondering if its best to do it myself, or if im looking at error-city

[nextri]

you need to learn php, mysql, html, css, javascript, and you're good to go. Takes a long time to master it all though. So if you're at 0 now. You're probably not gonna make professional web applications within a few months..

[HomerSimpson]

hire some one...
it can be cheaper in the end...

some newbie mistakes can be costly...
http://www.awmzone.com/services

[_Richard_]

both..

8char

[Dvae]

Originally Posted by clickhappy

If you want to build your own data driven websites how hard is it to learn how to program? Can you go from 0 to really good in a few months?
And it php the only thing you really need to learn?

I usually just buy a system but then I have to hire someone to customize it, and Im wondering if its best to do it myself, or if im looking at error-city

Doing yourself is better but its both a blessing and a curse as projects never seem to end.
Theres always new features to add and it becomes a viscious cycle.

[Barefootsies]

That really comes down to you.

My time and energy is better spent on the creative, developmental, and administrative side. For me to spend the time to learn something I can farm out for a few bucks is really is a waste of resources. I could better spend my time making money versus worrying about trying to save a few pennies. It simply is not an effective use of time and my skills. When I used to do it myself, I would spend a week or a month on something a talented programmer could knock out in a few days.

In short, you need to know what your skill sets are, and how they are best used.

[you-big-dummy]

Hiring somebody will save ya a lot of aggravation

[Matt 26z]

You don't need to master anything. It's really just a matter of understanding things enough to know what to look up when you need to do it.

[Jakez]

Originally Posted by Dvae

Doing yourself is better but its both a blessing and a curse as projects never seem to end.
Theres always new features to add and it becomes a viscious cycle.

QFT lol.

Originally Posted by Matt 26z

You don't need to master anything. It's really just a matter of understanding things enough to know what to look up when you need to do it.

I'd say go the hiring someone route and make sure you're making a profit from the site first, and meanwhile go through the files and figure out how it works.

[Supz]

If you want your website up and running in 2-3 years. when your new fresh idea is already played out. learn it yourself.

Pay someone and get it done. I always think you should work with what your strong suit is, and pay for the rest. If you want to learn over a course of time, working with other programmers etc. that would probably be a smarter way to learn.

[redwhiteandblue]

Originally Posted by clickhappy

If you want to build your own data driven websites how hard is it to learn how to program? Can you go from 0 to really good in a few months?

No.

Originally Posted by clickhappy

And it php the only thing you really need to learn?

No.

[livexxx]

I've never seen the monkey grinding the organ, hire one.

[Babaganoosh]

Definitely hire one. You can cause some serious headaches if you don't know what you're doing.

[raymor]

Originally Posted by HomerSimpson

hire some one...
it can be cheaper in the end...

some newbie mistakes can be costly...
http://www.awmzone.com/services

Qft
See the thread below about downloading MP4 files. A very simple script, yet "professionals" routinely make the same three major errors in that type of simple script. Two of the errors cause your server to occasionally crash. The other error let's visitors to your site read the config and password files, thereby being able to take over your server.

There are two reasons these same costly mistakes are so very, very common.
First, people learn the PHP language without first learning programming.
That's like learning the English language and then expecting that by knowing English you'll be able to write an Economics book in the English language.
Just because you know a language doesn't mean what you say in that language won't be stupid.
Programming first, languages to program in second. Included in programming is security 101, a topic many skipped. Then web systems, then web programming.

The second reason 90% of scripters make the same three major errors with that same simple script is because they learn by looking up one thing at a time, until it seems to work. By only studying what's obviously broken without a big picture view of language features like the PHP buffer system, they are unaware of the things they don't know. They work on it until "it sends to work for me." Yeah, and it also works for hackers. What they don't realize is that the next time the site gets busy their script will crash the whole server. "It seems like it's working for me" isn't good enough.
You need to understand the bigger picture and general concepts.

A few months? I've been studying computer science for 30 years and I've been a full time professional for 14 years. I STILL study constantly and I still do dumb every so often. I did a dumb today.

There are two differences with decades of experience. I've learned how to catch my errors in testing, rather than having a server hacked. Secondly, I now learn mostly from more knowledgeable people. I used to study random tutorials, now I study the kernel source and ask questions of kernel maintainers. I'm still studying, though.

Web programming is some of the most challenging to do well because you're code is constantly subject to attacks and may have to serve thousands of users per hour or per minute. Windows programming is much easier because you don't have hackers hitting your software all day, and you only have to serve one user at a time.

What can you learn in a couple of months?

I've hired a couple of people with computer science degrees. I have a couple of people I do peer review with. A reasonable amount of study to code GOOD web software under the supervision of someone more knowledgeable is a couple of years of study. After say 5-10 years I expect someone to be able to work by themselves with peer review rather than direct supervision. For real high quality code, Linus, Ralf, myself, and others who have decades of experience still have a team review the code. So for example about six experienced programmers will review my patch before it becomes part of Apache.

In a few months, you can learn enough to figure out if you want to learn more. In a few months, you can learn enough to shoot yourself in the foot. In a few months, you can learn enough to install and configure scripts other people wrote, and intelligently write good bug reports, feature proposals, etc.

[blackmonsters]

Originally Posted by clickhappy

If you want to build your own data driven websites how hard is it to learn how to program? Can you go from 0 to really good in a few months?
And it php the only thing you really need to learn?

I usually just buy a system but then I have to hire someone to customize it, and Im wondering if its best to do it myself, or if im looking at error-city

It all comes down to money.

Doing the programming yourself, which I do, does not save money!
NO FUCKING WAY!
The cost in "work hours" will always exceed any pre-made script cost.

A $50 script can have $30,000 of programming hours in it.....Easy!

But if you don't have money then doing it yourself might get you further.


The simple answer is :

If you have the money to hire then hire.


Bottom Line :

I'm selling the slomoplayer in my sig because I would like to make back some of
the "work hours" spent to develop it, but I would have never developed it if I had
found a similar flv player for $100.

Being able to develop the slomoplayer enabled me to get exactly what I wanted,
but it cost me thousands in work hours.

If I had worked at McDonalds instead of working on the slomoplayer then I wouldn't
be pissed right now about not yet getting approved for food stamps.

Keeping it real.

[plsureking]

Originally Posted by blackmonsters

Doing the programming yourself, which I do, does not save money!
...
I'm selling the slomoplayer in my sig because I would like to make back some of
the "work hours" spent to develop it, but I would have never developed it if I had
found a similar flv player for $100.

as you can see, most developers feel the same. buying is always better than building if it meets your specs. and that is from a group of guys who probably love coding as much as i do.

buy vs. build is a very standard question in IT, not just here in our little porn closet. every company asks that same question when deciding on a new software solution. as blackmonster said, it all comes down to money.

regarding the OPs specific question, the only reason to "learn" to program is if you want to eventually get a job programming. and you have a long, long way to go just to be competitive.
.

[bronco67]

I think programming is very much like art. If you're not born to do it, don't bother.

If you were born to do it, you'd already be doing it at a high level. See what I'm saying?

Hire an expert.

[VladS]

Most likely, the hire / buy route wins.

Do you want to make a career in programming? If not, don't bother with the heavy stuff, just learn basic html / css / javascript and if possible, a little bit of php so you can manage yourself the small things and only go the hire / buy route for the advanced stuff.

This depends on many factors as well, but if existing scripts meet your requirements, you'll be better with that over something custom, no need to reinvent the wheel, but again, it depends on many factors.

[Mr Pheer]

I mostly hire someone to write my PHP but I know enough to edit it, add new functions, and make changes myself. Saves money and time when you want small changes or upgrades.

[HandballJim]

It depends on what your trying to learn and what your budget is.

Sometimes relying on your programmer can be a pain in the ass...

[blackmonsters]

Originally Posted by raymor

Qft
See the thread below about downloading MP4 files. A very simple script, yet "professionals" routinely make the same three major errors in that type of simple script. Two of the errors cause your server to occasionally crash. The other error let's visitors to your site read the config and password files, thereby being able to take over your server.

There are two reasons these same costly mistakes are so very, very common.
First, people learn the PHP language without first learning programming.
That's like learning the English language and then expecting that by knowing English you'll be able to write an Economics book in the English language.
Just because you know a language doesn't mean what you say in that language won't be stupid.
Programming first, languages to program in second. Included in programming is security 101, a topic many skipped. Then web systems, then web programming.

The second reason 90% of scripters make the same three major errors with that same simple script is because they learn by looking up one thing at a time, until it seems to work. By only studying what's obviously broken without a big picture view of language features like the PHP buffer system, they are unaware of the things they don't know. They work on it until "it sends to work for me." Yeah, and it also works for hackers. What they don't realize is that the next time the site gets busy their script will crash the whole server. "It seems like it's working for me" isn't good enough.
You need to understand the bigger picture and general concepts.

A few months? I've been studying computer science for 30 years and I've been a full time professional for 14 years. I STILL study constantly and I still do dumb every so often. I did a dumb today.

There are two differences with decades of experience. I've learned how to catch my errors in testing, rather than having a server hacked. Secondly, I now learn mostly from more knowledgeable people. I used to study random tutorials, now I study the kernel source and ask questions of kernel maintainers. I'm still studying, though.

Web programming is some of the most challenging to do well because you're code is constantly subject to attacks and may have to serve thousands of users per hour or per minute. Windows programming is much easier because you don't have hackers hitting your software all day, and you only have to serve one user at a time.

What can you learn in a couple of months?

I've hired a couple of people with computer science degrees. I have a couple of people I do peer review with. A reasonable amount of study to code GOOD web software under the supervision of someone more knowledgeable is a couple of years of study. After say 5-10 years I expect someone to be able to work by themselves with peer review rather than direct supervision. For real high quality code, Linus, Ralf, myself, and others who have decades of experience still have a team review the code. So for example about six experienced programmers will review my patch before it becomes part of Apache.

In a few months, you can learn enough to figure out if you want to learn more. In a few months, you can learn enough to shoot yourself in the foot. In a few months, you can learn enough to install and configure scripts other people wrote, and intelligently write good bug reports, feature proposals, etc.

QUOTED FOR TRUTH MAN!

I've got 30 years of programming under my belt also and there is never a day where
I think I know enough.

Don't you just love ActionScript programming when somebody wants you to modify
a .fla? It's like, hmmmmmm? Is it AS1, AS2 or AS3?
Should I publish it as Flash 8, 9 or 10(let me know if there's another number).
I can save it as CS4 but you won't be able to open it with CS3, ya know?
And no, I don't have CS5 because the upgrade cost more than you're fucking paying.



WTF!!!!!!

With all the shit thrown at us today the answer to the question has become :

Q: "what is a programmer"

A: "A genius without a fucking dollar".

[raymor]

Originally Posted by blackmonsters

QUOTED FOR TRUTH MAN!

I've got 30 years of programming under my belt also and there is never a day where
I think I know enough.

Don't you just love ActionScript programming when somebody wants you to modify
a .fla? It's like, hmmmmmm? Is it AS1, AS2 or AS3?
Should I publish it as Flash 8, 9 or 10(let me know if there's another number).
I can save it as CS4 but you won't be able to open it with CS3, ya know?
And no, I don't have CS5 because the upgrade cost more than you're fucking paying.



WTF!!!!!!

With all the shit thrown at us today the answer to the question has become :

Q: "what is a programmer"

A: "A genius without a fucking dollar".

Flash programming, Action Script is horrible. I just did my second round of that. Normally I totally avoid it. We had one project that needed "very minor adjustments". Fortunately I have someone on staff work some experience. I still took a loss on the project.
Have I gotten you to email over your contact information for my "rolodex"?

[blackmonsters]

Originally Posted by plsureking

regarding the OPs specific question, the only reason to "learn" to program is if you want to eventually get a job programming. and you have a long, long way to go just to be competitive.
.

And after he becomes competitive, a new programming skill will become "the rave"
and he will be out of a job because employers no longer believe in re-training time.
Employers just "clean house" of programmers and hire a new batch.

Anyone planning a "career" in programming should expect to get laid off multiple times
because of some new shit that does nothing more than the old shit but that's what the
company wants and you are not even given two weeks to learn it.
The company rather spend six weeks finding someone "with experience".

[plsureking]

Originally Posted by raymor

Flash programming, Action Script is horrible. I just did my second round of that. Normally I totally avoid it. We had one project that needed "very minor adjustments". Fortunately I have someone on staff work some experience. I still took a loss on the project.

thank Buddha they came up with jquery...
.

[blackmonsters]

Originally Posted by raymor

Flash programming, Action Script is horrible. I just did my second round of that. Normally I totally avoid it. We had one project that needed "very minor adjustments". Fortunately I have someone on staff work some experience. I still took a loss on the project.
Have I gotten you to email over your contact information for my "rolodex"?

>> "very minor adjustments"



When has that ever been true????

I wish I had $10 for every $50 job that I spent 3 days testing in browsers.

My contact is : tube [at] econfirmpro dot com

[icymelon]

i have long wondered the same thing. can anyone suggest a place to start learning. i have tried youtube a few times

[blackmonsters]

Originally Posted by icymelon

i have long wondered the same thing. can anyone suggest a place to start learning. i have tried youtube a few times

w3schools.com has about everything.

But honestly, that will not make you a "programmer".

Like someone said in an above post :

"learning the language will not stop you from saying something stupid".

W3schools is a good place to start, but you will have to learn "programming" by
doing it.

I use w3schools as a reference because I already know programming and that's
actually what it's best used for.

So use w3schools but read carefully, because they will show you code that works but
then on the following pages they will show why doing it that way is fucked up.