rayadp05

I am currently in the process of setting up the Elevated-X CMS for my paysite, and have been wondering if whether or not I should offer zip files in the members area. Of course, I understand that for the members, this is a very convenient option. And since my website has approxmately 950 galleries (with about 100 to 300 exclusive pictures in each one) - this seems to be a very reasonable option to offer. There are videos on the site too, but the site is primarily a photo based site.

However, I can see it both ways. From the members standpoint, having the ability to download zip files is very convenient, and saves a lot of time. But what about from the webmasters point of view? Wouldn't a webmaster prefer for the members to log in to the members area when they want to see the content, instead of browsing through the folders on their computers? Personally, I would rather the members log in, so they could become familar with the other sections of the site, and the members area, in general - as well as with the content that resides within it.

Obviously, that's one of the reasons why you want to update your members area regularly, and always on time (so that the members will return) and I have done this for 7 years, without missing 1 single weekly update, so I understand that...but still, what is the benefit to the webmaster for offering the members to download zip files? Other than getting a higher rating at the review sites? I really would love for you to contribute your opinions, because I don't now what I am going to do. So yeah, I am leaning both ways - 50/50.

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NerdScott

I dont offer zip files and my members dont complain about it. Give them a totally user friendly picture viewer and a comfortable way to download single pictures manually. That will keep your members happy and keep the pirates away. Pirates are lazy and not passionate about your content. They will just move on to the next site that allows them to bulk download.

Or offer the zip download option once they are a member for X months.. just food for thought.

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Nautilus

Convenience increases members loyalty which is a big deal nowadays. Rebills are everything. Preventing pirates from downloading your content is important, but pirates focus more on videos anyway so it wouldn't matter much if you have zips or not piracy wise.

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Barefootsies

I focus on keeping them a member, not giving them every reason to sign up for a single month, download everything on the site, cancel and chargeback. In short, I do not do zips for a reason. Same as we have started eliminating downloads across the board on all pay sites, and adding in throttling.

Will you lose a few members here and there? Maybe. Same as you would on DRM. However, these are members who you probably did not want anyway. Just as you do not want every client, you do not want every member. Not all of them are there for the appreciation of your site. Some are there to smash, grab, and chargeback.

That being said, this is a business. My business is to keep them coming back, and rebilling. Not handing them everything on the site within a month so they can leave via easy of nice convenient downloads. The quality of members you want will not need those zips, or to be able to download a whole site in a single billing period (i.e. throttling their downloads).

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DamianJ

Look at what the music and movie industry and how they fucked up online. They tried to make everything work the way THEY wanted, not they way the CUSTOMERS wanted.

And they turned to piracy to avoid DRM, download limiters etc etc.

Then iTunes/netflix happened and gave them a good experience and they started paying.

Think about what YOU would want as a customer and forget about EVERYTHING else.

raymor

A middle ground some people do is to offer zips, but don't let them take them all over night. Say eight zip sets per day might be totally reasonable to jack off with, but the pirates won't want to keep coming back.day after day.

That's how most people use Throttlebox - give them plenty enough to jack off twice a day while not allowing the bad guys to download (and repost) everything in just a day or two.

DWB

Can Throttlebox limit ONLY my photo zip files? Or do you have to apply it to all site downloads?

DWB

Strongbox anti-slurp also stops bulk downloading of zips, correct?

AJHall

Very well said. Personally I would not bother with limiting downloads of zips. Videos, yes, zipped photos, no. Instead I would opt to either not have zips at all, allow them in full or only offer a lower quality zip download so if members want to see the good stuff they have to login to the site.

AJ

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rayadp05

Thank's for the comments guys. I don't think I will offer the zip download option. I've never really seen any sort of benefit to the webmaster for doing so, (other than getting higher scores at the review sites) and I have never offered them in the past, so will most likely skip on the idea. I was just curious to see what other people on the board thought about it, so thank's again for checking out the thread, and feel free to add additional comments, if you wish.

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SmutHammer

Never thought I'd see the day you posted something I agree with

AJHall

Damian knows some stuff ;)

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DWB

I don't believe music / movie piracy was a result of those industries doing things there way. There wasn't a spike in CD theft in music stores. DVD theft didn't rise. Only the online theft of those products surged and they only did so because they had a simple way to steal them. If what you say is correct, there would have also been a rise in CD and DVD theft.

Once it because easy to steal (take Naptster as the example), then it was game on. Itunes could have been around at that time with $1 tracks and it wouldn't have mattered. Give someone a somewhat anonymous way to steal something where they don't feel guilty for stealing it, and lots of people will steal it. That's just human nature.

People who want free get free if given the choice. People who pay will pay. I'm sure there are some who do both. It's not complex. It's not because of DRM. It's not because of download limits. It is because they can get away with it and not feel guilty for doing it. It's because it's super easy to steal anything you want with virtually no consequences.


This I agree with. However, reasonable limits do not bother me. Why do I need to download 100+ videos within 24 hours? Why would I get upset if I couldn't? Why do I need to rip every photo and video from your site in 1 day? I came to your site to rub one off and I can do so with no problem. Ripping your entire site wasn't the purpose of my join. Perhaps those who have that purpose should not be catered to in the first place.

DRM also never bothered me a bit when I started getting music from iTunes. It allowed up to 5 devices to play it. How many devices do I really need if I'm not sharing it with others? I had my laptop, my desktop, and my iPad. Why do I need more than 5?

DamianJ

I don't get this. Make the experience WORSE than if they go to a piracy site, and guess what, they'll go to a piracy site!

DamianJ

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but when netflix and iTunes came out, there was an explosion of legal downloading. Go figure.





But when iTunes came out, there was unprecedented growth in legal downloading.

You do the math.

Why on earth do you think everyone abandoned DRM then?

Why do many review sites have users complaining about download limits?

Why would you want to make a legal experience considerably WORSE than a legal one?

DRM and dlkownload limits did nothing whatsoever to discourage piracy and file sharing. Unarguable fact. They just make the UX worse for the legitimate customers.

What you want to do is make the legal experience BETTER than piracy. Not worse.

The Ghost

We offer photo set zips from the moment they join. Also for affiliates with members area access.

Customer service #1

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raymor

Yes, it can apply to ONLY zips. Typically you'd set X number of zips, Y number of videos, etc, choosing the numbers so that only the people abusing the site are affected.

That's what DamianJ seems to be ignoring - the option of setting it intelligently so that customers never see a limit. Only site rippers, the thieves who download everything and post it, hit a limit. By preventing your whole members' area from being posted, your business does better and you're able to better serve your customers.

raymor

Yes, Strongbox has two features that help with site ripping. One is automatic, anti-slurp works when you add some hidden links to your templates. So Strongbox helps, stopping most site rippers. That's not the main purpose if Strongbox, of course, so those features aren't bulletproof.

Throttlebox takes it up a notch, enforcing absolute rules to prevent ripping.

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DamianJ

How do you differentiate between a user and a thief?

In my experience, most legit customers of pay sites are collectors. They want to own ever pic and vid of girl x. So, they join, they have good speed, they download everything they have just paid for.

How does your your software work out that they are legit and other people doing the same thing are thieves?

What percentage of people that have PAID to access a website would you estimate are thieves?

I fail to see how treating every customer as a thief is A Good Thing.

J. Falcon

As a client I like zip files, more comfortable.

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u-Bob

A certain percentage of your users will be so called 'collectors'. they'll love zips.

Not every porn site user surfs with his dick in hand looking for that one scene or video that will help him get off.

DWB

This is very simple. The easier it gets to download, the more people do it. It has nothing to do with measures people have put on their content to protect it. It has everything to do with ease of use. It's that simple. iTunes wrote the book on ease of use.

I would bet that most people would not steal anything online if their name was publicly attached to everything they downloaded. If a public record was kept with this data, the people with a brain would not be stealing. This is why they don't steal from an offline store.


DRM was abandoned because they did it wrong. Period. Nothing else to say about it. Now everyone is too afraid to try something new, so they don't and say it can't be done.

Review site users complain about everything, as do review sites themselves. That's just how it goes. You will always find people who don't like something.

raymor

Here's one good hint:


Those are the top twelve users. Guess which one is trying to rip the site.


About 1/4 to 1/2 of 1% upload 80% of the content on tubes. So it's that 1 person out of 200-400 who steals in a way that matters.
You capitalized PAID. Since they are thieves, they will of course use stolen passwords whenever possible. So controlling password theft reduces site ripping.


On the other hand, thieves who rip the site and repost everything download every pic and vid of every girl on the site.


That WOULD be be dumb. Treating the customers as customers and treating the thieves as thieves is smart.

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anexsia

I know in the gaming industry, DRM effected their sales very negatively and now many companies have stopped using it. Several well known gaming companies advertised NO DRM and even with piracy their sales were phenomenal...they offered a good game for a great price. Not saying this applies to porn but it's an example of what DRM does to a customer base.
There's also ease of use, with STEAM I can get games at a good price and it's easy to download and install with having all of them in one place...sure I could go on TPB and download them for free but when the prices are good and it's so nice having games all in one place like itunes does with music it gives me a great reason to not download stuff illegally.

AJHall

Thankfully there are millions of people who think just like you do.

Consumers don't just pay for content. They pay for an experience, they pay for convenience, they pay for quality and for the peace of mind of knowing they can trust the source of the content. "Free" doesn't always trump these things. If it did, the very same people crying on forums about how nobody is willing to pay for porn anymore would be way too busy doing odd jobs to make ends meet to sit on gfy all day.

I agree with Raymor 100%. Having a security script in place that prevents site rips is an absolute must for any pay site.

If you're really looking to monetize content and control it in today's market, I honestly believe the easiest way is to change from subscription to on demand.

Let users buy a package just like Netflix that gives them credits to use to buy content. We do it with Elevated X and have a plug-in that will let you sell zips for 1 price, full videos for another price, clips for another price. There's no way to leech the site. No reason to limit zips, if someone wants it, they can buy it for $0.50 or $1 or whatever you want to charge. Problem solved.

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