Can The Porn Business Change?

[The Porn Nerd]

Being in my mid-forties now I can look back on 30+ years of porn and can honestly say I've seen it change from good to bad to worse to OMG please stop treating those girls that way.

But as I look forward further into this century I wonder: can porn really change? "Adapt Or Die" is an often-used phrase and I understand its' context when it comes to business models. But how about actual models? As in, can performers themselves (and thus performances) change?

Porn seems stuck in 2005 mode. I've written extensively on my distaste for what I term "filmed consensual rape" where the girls are slapped, gagged, basically abused mercilessly and expected to LOVE IT! This type of porn is everywhere and therefore it's the "niche"-type sites that many are turning to for both variety and a sense of reality (or purer fantasy). So why don't the larger porn companies change the way they shoot porn?

Everyone seems to be complaining about declining sales in the porn business yet I see so many established "players" continuing to film the same old shit over and over ad nauseum...

As I said above, I've seen porn change over the decades but now porn seems "stuck" in one extreme, nasty mode all the while bitching about how things aren't like 2005 anymore. Maybe they should film like it's 2012 and reflect today's values and tastes in sex. Then maybe today's surfers and audiences would connect more with the adult performances and see what they either experience in their own lives or would like to experience.

Crazy thoughts, I know.

[Roald]

Actually I think it's moving away already with all the "art" sites for example which are getting quite some attention.

[DamageX]

The only constant thing in life is change.

[Tom_PM]

I saw a clip recently that was of a super hot brunette with a great body being felt up then she got to her knees and was sucking a dick and then the fuckwit slapped her hard across the face and dragged her to her feet by her neck.

There was no label that it was a choke fetish or abuse video so it pretty much just left me pissed off.

[J. Falcon]

That kind of porn disgusts me too and gives the industry a bad rep. But there are so many niches to choose from these days that there are no real niches left.

[devilspost]

I am glad to see a little runway patch coming back in style.

[Theo]

A lot of things have changed since '05

[Eyeball]

Arty porn movies are ok for a while, your MRs will enjoy them for a bit too. But before long you are back searching for the filthiest sluts that you can find online while your wife is reading 50 shades dreaming of getting her ass fucked nice and deep by a complete stranger that she has never or will ever meet.

They are a fad.

[J. Falcon]

Originally Posted by Eyeball

Arty porn movies are ok for a while, your MRs will enjoy them for a bit too. But before long you are back searching for the filthiest sluts that you can find online while your wife is reading 50 shades dreaming of getting her ass fucked nice and deep by a complete stranger that she has never or will ever meet.

They are a fad.

This is actually so true.

[tony286]

IMO Since there so much more porn production, that to get attention out in a crowded market people feel they have to keep pushing the edge.
Also there is so much porn out there people are very desensitized to vanilla porn

[fuzebox]

I thought abuse style content was on the decline... 6-8 years ago the envelope was being pushed a lot harder than it is today.

[DWB]

Originally Posted by MisterPeabody

Being in my mid-forties now I can look back on 30+ years of porn and can honestly say I've seen it change from good to bad to worse to OMG please stop treating those girls that way.

Porn seems stuck in 2005 mode. I've written extensively on my distaste for what I term "filmed consensual rape" where the girls are slapped, gagged, basically abused mercilessly and expected to LOVE IT! This type of porn is everywhere and therefore it's the "niche"-type sites that many are turning to for both variety and a sense of reality (or purer fantasy). So why don't the larger porn companies change the way they shoot porn?
Crazy thoughts, I know.

If girls are being pressured into filming something they don't want to do, the power is in their hands to stop it. They just have to say no. When you have girls who say yes to everything, for whatever reason they may say yes, you get what we have now.

The one with the pussy holds the power. They just have to understand that and learn how to use it.

On the other hand, maybe more girls like that sort of thing that we know.

[tony286]

Originally Posted by DWB

If girls are being pressured into filming something they don't want to do, the power is in their hands to stop it. They just have to say no. When you have girls who say yes to everything, for whatever reason they may say yes, you get what we have now.

The one with the pussy holds the power. They just have to understand that and learn how to use it.

On the other hand, maybe more girls like that sort of thing that we know.

I agree with you but I think alot of girls fall into porn because of financial need, its not a career choice. The girl is hired for a vague boy/girl shoot. The money will be paying the rent,she gets there and its much harder then she was described on the phone. She can say no but then rent aint paid.So then she does it.

[Ad-Min]

Nevermind,i need to read the entire post and not just the title and suspect something else :-/

but,you are right,it´s moving more and more to hard stuff.
the next generations are overwhelmed and very very wrong if they believe what they see online.

[BlackCrayon]

unless they are just lying there are so many interviews with porn girls who say they love rough sex in their personal lives. was watching this one with jessie rogers who says she going to take time off shooting around her 19th birthday so she doesn't have to worry about bruises from the rough sex she plans to have.

[davethedope]

Originally Posted by BlackCrayon

unless they are just lying there are so many interviews with porn girls who say they love rough sex in their personal lives. was watching this one with jessie rogers who says she going to take time off shooting around her 19th birthday so she doesn't have to worry about bruises from the rough sex she plans to have.

They're either lying or deluded by their youth. Most of these girls don't REALLY even enjoy sex, which is why they're in porn to begin with.

Now, they'll say they're in the business because they enjoy sex- wrong- they're in it for easy money.

Most aren't as attractive as they are raised up to be.

It's all very complicated.

[Struggle4Bucks]

Originally Posted by MisterPeabody

Being in my mid-forties now I can look back on 30+ years of porn and can honestly say I've seen it change from good to bad to worse to OMG please stop treating those girls that way.

But as I look forward further into this century I wonder: can porn really change? "Adapt Or Die" is an often-used phrase and I understand its' context when it comes to business models. But how about actual models? As in, can performers themselves (and thus performances) change?

Porn seems stuck in 2005 mode. I've written extensively on my distaste for what I term "filmed consensual rape" where the girls are slapped, gagged, basically abused mercilessly and expected to LOVE IT! This type of porn is everywhere and therefore it's the "niche"-type sites that many are turning to for both variety and a sense of reality (or purer fantasy). So why don't the larger porn companies change the way they shoot porn?

Everyone seems to be complaining about declining sales in the porn business yet I see so many established "players" continuing to film the same old shit over and over ad nauseum...

As I said above, I've seen porn change over the decades but now porn seems "stuck" in one extreme, nasty mode all the while bitching about how things aren't like 2005 anymore. Maybe they should film like it's 2012 and reflect today's values and tastes in sex. Then maybe today's surfers and audiences would connect more with the adult performances and see what they either experience in their own lives or would like to experience.

Crazy thoughts, I know.

What`s wrong with gagged and slapped girls? Like it`s something from the last few years...??? Like it`s so 2005 and why are they still producing that shit? Bdsm is a well known, large niche and to my knowledge content was allready produced in the 50s http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bettie_Page

It`s a large community of people that are into it. They are into it because they are into it ,not because producers produce it. It`s not that they are into it because there is no other porn to turn to.

Filming like it`s 2012 and reflect today`s values and tastes in sex? Sexuality has nothing to do with trends. A few years ago bdsm became "a trend" in mainstream media...
That means media gave it more attention because media gave it more attention, not because all of a sudden more people were into it; not like people getting into it because it was a trend. That would be the same as: being gay or having gay sex becomes a trend so a lot of hetero sexuals now want to try it because it`s a trend.
Sexuality has nothing to do with changing trends, values and tastes. There is a wide variety of people and a wide variety of sexuality and i think that most people can find the content that match their sexuality.

Regarding to the models... some are into it, some are not. Some models would never do it and some models that are not into it still want to do it and do it for the money. They think... well a little bit of slapping is not going to be very perfect but it`s also not going to kill me and if it pays good... why not?

[Robbie]

Struggle4Bucks is exactly right.

Sexual fantasies have never changed and never will.

All we do is create stuff to satisfy men's fantasies. Sometimes I like to jerk my cock looking at "art" type stuff.
Sometimes I like to watch a big butt black girl get fucked.
Sometimes I enjoy "teen" porn like the stuff Paperstreet or Nubiles produces.
Sometimes I like the kind of porn that is being talked about in this thread...Kink's Public Disgrace site is fucking AWESOME for that kind of thing:
http://www.publicdisgrace.com/site/s...RACE,230,0,0,0

[tony286]

I think the tone has changed.

[Tiffany Preston]

i think its all about those tubes sites owner again giving away free porn , i remember in 2008 when youporn first launch their affiliate program and where driving me more then 20 sales a day on only one of my sites that was serious money and now since they are own by MANWIN i rarely see sales from this site anymore. Its about giving a way free content and if everyone's will be ok to set specific rules about video length to find on those sites it will fix the issue and surfers will get back to put their hands into their pockets to purchase porn again. my 2 cents

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by tony286

I think the tone has changed.

Not in people's fantasies. lol

I remember back in the early 1990's I had a great gonzo video that somebody had made from his collection of porn vids And one of the scenes was a group of women sitting around the house watching t.v.}
Suddenly a gang of guys wearing masks broke into the house and fucked the hell out of all of them.
It was a very hot "rape fantasy" type video...nothing like a real rape of course since the girls were sucking cock and riding it and dp'ing etc.

Of course...NOW we aren't really allowed to film anything like that for online because online billing processors claim that VISA won't bill for it.
But if you go to an adult bookstore you can damn sure use your VISA to buy it on DVD. lol

Anyway, my point is that rough sex and aggressively "taking" the pussy has always been one of many fantasies that men and women have...note the word "fantasy", not talking real life.
It's nothing new, and it's always been produced.

The only real new things I've seen over the last few years has been the huge amount of fat girls, grannies, and other niches that were once thought "undesirable" until the internet came along and educated us that "yes" those niches have a huge following.

[stever]

Originally Posted by Robbie

Struggle4Bucks is exactly right.

Sexual fantasies have never changed and never will.

All we do is create stuff to satisfy men's fantasies. Sometimes I like to jerk my cock looking at "art" type stuff.
Sometimes I like to watch a big butt black girl get fucked.
Sometimes I enjoy "teen" porn like the stuff Paperstreet or Nubiles produces.
Sometimes I like the kind of porn that is being talked about in this thread...Kink's Public Disgrace site is fucking AWESOME for that kind of thing:
http://www.publicdisgrace.com/site/s...RACE,230,0,0,0

damn thats a serious public disgrace lol

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by stever

damn thats a serious public disgrace lol

Yeah, Kink doesn't fuck around.

I can't figure out how they can shoot stuff like that and bill for it though.
I had a scene with Claudia Marie where I had her tits tied up in rope in a POV where the storyline was she was being paid back by a jealous woman whose husband she had fucked.

Nothing crazy like the Kink stuff. Just some hot wax and a vibrator applied to her clit by a gloved hand to make her cum against her will.

CC Bill (one of the processors we use in NATS) gave me hell about it a year or so after it was up and told me that Visa doesn't allow that kind of "forced" sex video!
I couldn't believe it. But they said we would lose our CC Bill account if I didn't take that video off the site.

It was total bullshit and completely stupid. But just goes to show you that people these days can't discern between what is real and what is fantasy.

I guess the people at CC Bill and Visa and MasterCard probably saw The Expendables 2 at the theater and believe that Sylvester Stallone actually shot all those people with REAL bullets and killed them all for real.

[peterk]

porn now is more self shot and exgf style.

[mce]

Ask Paul Markham for the answer

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by mce

Ask Paul Markham for the answer

That's where this thread should have been the whole time! In the new Paul Markham section!

Peabody....what the hell were you thinking?

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by Robbie

That's where this thread should have been the whole time! In the new Paul Markham section!

Peabody....what the hell were you thinking?

I must be off my meds....LOL

But to clarify a point or two:

I am not talking about "niche" porn, BDSM, Kink, anything like that. I'm talking about "mainstream" boy/girl scenes. A dude, a girl and a couch.

Rough sex has always been a fantasy, true, no disputing that truth. But when I see (nearly) every single scene filmed that way it disturbs me and makes me wonder. Hard, fast, machine-like pounding, ass-spanking, choking, cock-gagging - it's all part of the "norm" these days, or seems to be the norm.

ErosExotica (shameless plug), XArt, sites like these make money and stand out because they are counter-marketed in today's violent, overly-aggressive porn universe.

[pornmasta]

Originally Posted by mce

Ask Paul Markham for the answer

yes indeed

[oppoten]

I've long believed that "nasty" American porn is basically intended to put the American surfer in combat mode, and make him think of his dick as a gun.

"Hunting" and "destroying" pussy ain't too different from hunting and destroying Taliban. It's the same with sports and steroids. Pumped up = good, subtle = weak. Hopefully the art porn sites will help change a few attitudes.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by oppoten

I've long believed that "nasty" American porn is basically intended to put the American surfer in combat mode, and make him think of his dick as a gun.

"Hunting" and "destroying" pussy ain't too different from hunting and destroying Taliban. It's the same with sports and steroids. Pumped up = good, subtle = weak. Hopefully the art porn sites will help change a few attitudes.

You obviously haven't looked at much European porn (especially for a guy in the U.K.). lol

But thanks for the faux psycho-analytical b.s. that really doesn't fly when it comes to complex human sexuality and fantasy.

[flyfishing]

its moving towards cams i'd say

[oppoten]

Originally Posted by Robbie

You obviously haven't looked at much European porn (especially for a guy in the U.K.). lol

But thanks for the faux psycho-analytical b.s. that really doesn't fly when it comes to complex human sexuality and fantasy.

I look at lots of European porn, just not the stuff that models itself on American porn. Private screwed itself up for doing that IMO.

You didn't need to reply. I get the picture and I respect where you're coming from.

[Barry-xlovecam]

We don't allow forced or imitated forced sex or BDSM. Being in the Netherlands we could probably get away with it but for legal reasons, that would affect our bottom line profits, we don't allow it.

We are not so much moralists as we are realists. We are happy to lose the extreme customer to abuse models elsewhere. Controlling and limiting the situation on a one-on-one basis is not doable at our volume.

[AsianDivaGirlsWebDude]

I've stayed pretty true to my original values after over a decade of shooting porn.

I shoot what interests me, and the types of things that interest me are what I do in my own sex life, and some mild fantasy exploration, so my site is more glam style (but with a realistic feel), and the hardcore content is more sensual couples-oriented hardcore.

All of my scenes still are storyboarded with a plot, and I break many of the trend "rules" of the industry (I score licensed music on my videos, frequently shoot with multiple cameras, etc)

When I delve into BDSM/fetish, it is more from an inquisitive or educational exploration perspective, basically to introduce the fetish, and to demonstrate it's psychological appeal to those with that particular fetish.

I also don't shoot a lot of extreme/fetish/BDSM, because I am not into those things so much in my personal life, so I feel that my work will come across as disingenuine to true fetishists, so I mostly stick to what I enjoy and know.

In my case, I am not pandering to the market, I simply do what I can to have the market for my niche/site find me.



ADG

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by oppoten

I look at lots of European porn, just not the stuff that models itself on American porn. Private screwed itself up for doing that IMO.

You didn't need to reply. I get the picture and I respect where you're coming from.

I'm pretty sure that "European Porn" was deemed too extreme for years here in the U.S.

Matter of fact...even Max Hardcore was filming two versions of his movies. One for the U.S. and one "harder" one for Europe.

Am I mistaken on that?

[Raz]

Something we can't imagine right now will be the hot new porn niche in five years. It won't necessarily be a new concept, but it will where the money is it. Art porn isn't really new, sensitive porn films designed to be inclusive of a more feminine viewpoint were done 20 years ago. Same thing with blacks and asian babes or latinas. Once a small niche nobody cared about, now a bit more relevant. Maybe we'll be marketing art porn holograms. Who knows?

[Cherry7]

Porn is just so poor in so many ways...that lack of fantasy, the same scene poorly shot over and over again, blow job, fuck, come in face... all shot on amateur cameras with crap sound etc...

Visa fears about real force have a grounding in the fact that most porn is done for real and not acted, so the girl is really spanked hard not pretend. Hollywood does not actually use real bullets.

It would be good if fantasy could be signaled and approved.

Porn is a sub culture which the majority of the population don't understand, like ballet.

There is a market for erotic material appealing to people who find porn dull, anti women, and strange, but it is very difficult to reach them because of censorship in normal media and being forced into the porn ghetto

[KyleC]

I'd disagree with the ones saying porn is stuck in the degrading stages of the 2000's. The top selling material seems to be femdom or humiliation niches. These are all involving men taking the brunt of exploitation. And as far as running out of ideas and niches. There will always be new niches coming out. People say the same about mainstream movies and music...that it's all been done before and there is nothing new to come up with. Create!

[Bat_Man]

I gone through the post...but I feel nothing can can change this big demand.....

[DamageX]

This thread is beyond fucking retarded. It's like discussing politics, none of the posters can do a damn thing about it, yet you all keep arguing. Get back to making money and making the best out of the situation.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by davethedope

They're either lying or deluded by their youth. Most of these girls don't REALLY even enjoy sex, which is why they're in porn to begin with.

Now, they'll say they're in the business because they enjoy sex- wrong- they're in it for easy money.

Most aren't as attractive as they are raised up to be.

It's all very complicated.

Bullshit. Sorry Dave but it is. I've shot girls or been shot with them for 40 years+ and my impression of the majority is they love sex. Some carry baggage, but still enjoy sex. It depends who they are with and how they are treated.

As for the OP.

Do you think it's down to the shooters, publishers or audience? IMO the last one is the least effecting this trend. A small % of people want to see a girl abused. Problem is they want to see a girl really having a great time and few shooter can get that out of a girl these days.

How the industry has changed. https://gfy.com/showthread.php?t=1081654

Will add to it, going to rest. Been updating my blog. Might go for a walk.

[Mutt]

huh? there's way less of that type of porn now than 5 and 10 years ago - you don't have all the reality sites ridiculing the 'dumb bitches' anymore, look at Brazzers, RK/Bangbros and Naughty America, the biggest brands in hardcore porn - it's all vignette porn, and pretty tame really.

Meatholes is long gone, Rob Black is long gone, Steve Sweet is long gone, and others like them. That extreme mysoginistic porn has faded.

Girls continue to evolve sexually, they grow up now seeing a lot more porn, lots of them like the intense hard sex they see in videos - they want guys like James Deen or Manuel Ferrara to fuck the shit out of them, choke them a bit, whatever else they do.

[The Ghost]

Going on 16 years in the business.

What I've seen over and over again is this; content trends in this business come in waves.

Harder - Softer - Harder - Softer


Content gets harder and harder until there is a backlash, and customers and producers change their stylings. Then it gets "softer" and ramps back up again out of customer boredom with it being soft.

Customers rare stay into the SAME style of content throughout their life. They experiment and enjoy all different types of content at different times. Their tastes evolve, then possibly revert.



There it is.

[redhead]

I think Peabody has a point, though I understand what Robbie's saying too.
What i have noticed is that women are changing.

I'll explain, up until 18 months ago I'd been married for 10 years (monogamously ) when my marriage split up I started dating again, 12 girls in 14 months. Every one of those girls told me they liked sex to be rough (they brought the subject up), they all came from different backgrounds, aged from 23 to 34 and they all said this on or before the FIRST date. I am 47 and have talked about this with sexual partners before but never that early. BTW none of the girls worked in adult or knew that I do.

Also when was the last time you fucked a girl who had pubes?

[tony286]

Originally Posted by oppoten

I've long believed that "nasty" American porn is basically intended to put the American surfer in combat mode, and make him think of his dick as a gun.

"Hunting" and "destroying" pussy ain't too different from hunting and destroying Taliban. It's the same with sports and steroids. Pumped up = good, subtle = weak. Hopefully the art porn sites will help change a few attitudes.

I agree it's not fetishes its just angry.

[The Porn Nerd]

Attitudes towards sex vary so greatly from culture to culture it's hard to make an all-inclusive accurate statement regarding people's tastes. So I won't. LOL What I'm getting at is mainstream porn, not "niches".

We as human beings get a lot of our information and communication non-verbally which we often forget. So when I watch a porn scene I am actually processing a LOT of info: the sounds, the movement, the music, the lighting, and - MOST important of all - the expressions of the performers.

Many do this UNconsciously (noticing the facial expressions) but I now do so consciously. Watch the faces of the MEN in the scenes. They are angry, rage-fueled faces, pounding that pussy in fury and contempt. The girls? Watch closely - every once in a while the "truth" of what they're feeling comes across their faces as they wince, shudder and almost cry.

BUT IT'S SO HOT!!

Not.

[topnotch, standup guy]

Originally Posted by MisterPeabody

BUT IT'S SO HOT!!

Not.

"Hot" like "beauty" is in the eye of the beholder.

Nothing new going on here. That maxim has applied since the dawn of recorded history.

.

[BlackCrayon]

Originally Posted by MisterPeabody

Attitudes towards sex vary so greatly from culture to culture it's hard to make an all-inclusive accurate statement regarding people's tastes. So I won't. LOL What I'm getting at is mainstream porn, not "niches".

We as human beings get a lot of our information and communication non-verbally which we often forget. So when I watch a porn scene I am actually processing a LOT of info: the sounds, the movement, the music, the lighting, and - MOST important of all - the expressions of the performers.

Many do this UNconsciously (noticing the facial expressions) but I now do so consciously. Watch the faces of the MEN in the scenes. They are angry, rage-fueled faces, pounding that pussy in fury and contempt. The girls? Watch closely - every once in a while the "truth" of what they're feeling comes across their faces as they wince, shudder and almost cry.

BUT IT'S SO HOT!!

Not.

you could argue that sex is by nature somewhat of a violent act. a dick stabbing a pussy is kinda like (now this is a bit of a stretch but..) a knife stabbing flesh...the same kind of adrenaline is released during a fight and during sex. etc, etc.

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by BlackCrayon

you could argue that sex is by nature somewhat of a violent act. a dick stabbing a pussy is kinda like (now this is a bit of a stretch but..) a knife stabbing flesh...the same kind of adrenaline is released during a fight and during sex. etc, etc.

That is an extremely excellent point! In eastern philosophies there's the hard and soft energies typified by the penis and vagina. (I'll let you figure out which one is soft and hard energy in this example...). There's a distinction between the two energies and the roles they play.

I've also seen studies where they've dissected the male (human) brain and found that the sections that control violence and sex are right next to each other so perhaps this is why many male performers need to "go there" (the violent part of their brain) in order to get aroused.

But still, we are not merely animals and do have the ability to control and even override parts of our brain. WE control our own actions tho I admit that doing tons of drugs and being desperate for cash makes controlling one's actions more difficult. LOL

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by MisterPeabody

What I'm getting at is mainstream porn, not "niches".

Many do this UNconsciously (noticing the facial expressions) but I now do so consciously. Watch the faces of the MEN in the scenes. They are angry, rage-fueled faces, pounding that pussy in fury and contempt. The girls? Watch closely - every once in a while the "truth" of what they're feeling comes across their faces as they wince, shudder and almost cry.

BUT IT'S SO HOT!!

Not.

I think you're way off-base if you're talking about the big generic porn companies ("mainstream porn" as you called it)

As Mutt pointed out earlier...all their shit is vignette based and pretty tame and lame. Brazzers stuff is getting lighter and lighter as Fabian gets more worried and listens to too many lawyers...they just dropped one of their sites a few weeks ago that was themed about porn stars wanting rough sex and sent out notices to us affiliates the it didn't "fit" with Brazzers anymore.

Naughty America is also one of the biggest "mainstream" as you call it...generic as I call it, porn companies. Claudia Marie has shot with them many times, and I've been an affiliate since they were called SoCal Cash back in the day...they have ALWAYS been super vanilla and tame. They have a list of rules when they shoot to make sure that the girl isn't degraded in any way at all.

Twistys Hardcore has never, ever shot anything like you're describing.

The only big generic companies that did were Nasty Dollars...and they kinda went "soft" in comparison to the old days. The last 7 years or so of their content have been pretty much looking exactly like Naughty America's stuff. Which is what Brazzers did too. Copied the NA style and even stole their directors.

They all use the same girls and guys, same directors, same ideas.

None of them are on the level of Kink or Max Hardcore's stuff.

So I have to disagree with you on that point.

As for your main concept...Look, people like different shit. You hate seeing the girl nailed rough. Other guys LOVE it. Some guys like tiny, skinny anorexic girls. Some guys like obese women. Some guys dig watching girls do anal. Some guys are disgusted by it.

It's all fantasy and there are plenty of people who enjoy different things.

And yes, that even includes the women in the scenes. Some girls in this business HATE sex and have a general hatred of men. And conversely I know lots of girls who LOVE sex and can't fuck enough. And some girls who just like romantically "making love"...and some girls who actually enjoy gangbangs.

And when the right girl is matched to the right type of scene...you get fireworks and a great scene.