Raising the Minimum Wage Is Good for Business (But the Corporate Lobby Doesn't Think So) - GoFuckYourself.com

GrantMercury · 02-22-2013, 10:04 AM

Great article.

Quote:

As soon as Barack Obama called on Congress to raise the minimum wage to $9 an hour in his State of the Union address Tuesday night, you could see Speaker John Boehner, seated behind the president, uttering his religious mantra: "Job killer." And even if you couldn't read his lips, you could read his mind: "Campaign contributions." He and his Republican colleagues could expect huge donations from business lobby groups - especially those that depend on low-wage workers, like the hotel industry, restaurants and fast-food chains, nursing homes and hospitals and big-box retailers - to keep Congress from embracing Obama's modest proposal.

Boehner's "job killer" grumble should come as no surprise. Business groups and their political allies have been "crying wolf" about the minimum wage ever since President Franklin D. Roosevelt proposed it during the Depression to help stimulate the economy. The critics warned that enacting a minimum wage would destroy employees' drive to work hard and would force many firms out of business. The minimum wage law, warned the National Association of Manufacturers (NAM) in 1937, "constitutes a step in the direction of communism, bolshevism, fascism, and Nazism." Congressman Edward Cox, a Georgia Democrat, said that the law "will destroy small industry." These ideas, Cox claimed, "are the product of those whose thinking is rooted in an alien philosophy and who are bent upon the destruction of our whole constitutional system and the setting up of a Red Labor communistic despotism upon the ruins of our Christian civilization." Roosevelt and most members of Congress ignored these warnings and adopted the Fair Labor Standards Act in 1938, establishing the federal minimum wage of 25 cents an hour.

Since then, each time Congress has considered raising the minimum wage, business groups and conservatives have repackaged the same arguments. In 1945, NAM claimed that, "The proposed jump from an hourly minimum of 40 to 65 cents at once, and 70 and 75 cents in the following years, is a reckless jolt to the economic system. Living standards, instead of being improved, would fall - probably to record lows." Instead, the next three decades saw the biggest increased in living standards in the nation's history. ...

http://truth-out.org/news/item/14672...oesnt-think-so

stinkyfingers · 02-22-2013, 10:06 AM

why would they do that ? they want to tank the country.

TheSquealer · 02-22-2013, 10:07 AM

What a strange and unfulfilled life you must lead. Clearly you don't spend your time making money, which is a shame. A lot of misguided and wasted energy. Probably too afraid you might be viewed as exploiting a pixel or two.

purecane · 02-22-2013, 10:09 AM

it cuts into their bottom line... and i was really surprised to hear him say that because he knows damn well people on welfare still make more than someone making 9$/hour... it's all a ploy to keep the sheep complacent.

sperbonzo · 02-22-2013, 10:09 AM

http://simplefactsplainarguments.blo...less-jobs.html

Minimum Wage Laws Equal Less Jobs
With Obama's recent push for an increase in the minimum wage to $9/hour, it's important to look at the consequences of a minimum wage of any (economically relevant) amount. Unfortunately, when one looks at the situation from a logical, supply-and-demand point of view, it becomes obvious that the minimum wage is another example of a law backed by good intentions with unintended, harmful consequences.

Notice the word "equilibrium." That's important.

Firstly, it's completely dishonest to claim that without the minimum wage, we'd all be starving and forced to live off six pennies a day. If a company posted a job for $0.25/hour, I can almost guarantee that they wouldn't get any applications. Labor is a market, and there's a balance. While workers may have to impress employers with their experience and education and such, employers also have to compete for workers. To attract workers to their business, they might offer competitive pay, good medical benefits, advancement opportunities, a good work environment, etc. In a free market, this balance between available jobs and workers is kept relatively stable. It's when the government involves itself through economic regulations like price (wage) controls that the market gets distorted and one group is put at a disadvantage to another.

The problem is that enacting a minimum wage law doesn't suddenly give all the working poor a decent-paying job. Instead, it forces employers to consider many people to be unemployable because their sudden increase in pay may not be justifiable by their production, experience, or education. The increase in pay due to the minimum wage may even make it economically impossible for the business owner to keep that worker's position anyway; what if the job itself just isn't worth $9/hour?

This is the exact reason why proponents of the minimum wage don't follow their logic to its necessary conclusion. Why doesn't Mr. Obama, if he cares about the little man so much, increase the minimum wage to $15/hour? Or $25/hour? Because by raising the minimum wage, the government forces people out of their jobs, and their jobs out of the country. It's entirely possible to put the entire workforce out of work just by following the logic of minimum wage proponents.

On average, unemployment for young people is 15% higher than it is for adults. Why are young people having difficulty finding jobs today? Because, due to the minimum wage and other regulations, it's too expensive for most companies to risk the time and money necessary to train an inexperienced high school or college graduate who will probably move on to something else within a year or two anyway.

Instead, the business is forced to minimize the risk posed by a higher minimum wage by only hiring over-qualified, over-experienced workers for entry-level jobs that used to be worked by teenagers and college grads. This creates a vicious cycle of unemployment for young people that can't get the experience they need to begin their professional careers; this cycle is compounded in a weak economy. I'm sure every college graduate reading this can at least remember a time when they were staring at a posting on Indeed or Careerbuilder and muttering, "so I need experience before I can get experience?"

I'm still trying to figure it out myself.

Don't let its proponents fool you: they claim that the minimum wage protects the poor and the marginalized of society. The truth is the minimum wage will only create more unemployment and misery for the workers it's supposed to protect. Minimum wage laws, by their very nature, only outlaw jobs that pay less than a totally arbitrary dollar amount while doing nothing to create a more favorable environment for businesses to employ people.

So what's the solution? How about "freedom of contract?" Wouldn't it be a novel idea for people to negotiate their own pay, hours, benefits, etc., without involving government force? If someone wants to take a $5/hour job rather than sit around and do nothing, why shouldn't they be able to? Should a willing worker go jobless or be forced on welfare because his or her experience, education, or production may not merit the government-enforced minimum wage? In a free society, the price of one's labor is an issue that should be decided between the worker and his potential employer, not the government."

.

HelmutKohl · 02-22-2013, 10:11 AM

AFTER wwII man working full time on minimum wage was able to support his unworking wife, 4 kids, had a single family house and a car- full middle class lifestyle- all that for a minimum wage 40 hour week. Now the same job lends the same man in a food stamp program below poverty line. If that was up to Republicans, minimum wage would be $0.25 per hour and children would work instead of wasting time in schools! Americans, keep voting for GOP and starve later

GrantMercury · 02-22-2013, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sperbonzo

http://simplefactsplainarguments.blo...less-jobs.html

Minimum Wage Laws Equal Less Jobs
With Obama's recent push for an increase in the minimum wage to $9/hour, it's important to look at the consequences of a minimum wage of any (economically relevant) amount. Unfortunately, when one looks at the situation from a logical, supply-and-demand point of view, it becomes obvious that the minimum wage is another example of a law backed by good intentions with unintended, harmful consequences.

Notice the word "equilibrium." That's important.

Firstly, it's completely dishonest to claim that without the minimum wage, we'd all be starving and forced to live off six pennies a day. If a company posted a job for $0.25/hour, I can almost guarantee that they wouldn't get any applications. Labor is a market, and there's a balance. While workers may have to impress employers with their experience and education and such, employers also have to compete for workers. To attract workers to their business, they might offer competitive pay, good medical benefits, advancement opportunities, a good work environment, etc. In a free market, this balance between available jobs and workers is kept relatively stable. It's when the government involves itself through economic regulations like price (wage) controls that the market gets distorted and one group is put at a disadvantage to another.

The problem is that enacting a minimum wage law doesn't suddenly give all the working poor a decent-paying job. Instead, it forces employers to consider many people to be unemployable because their sudden increase in pay may not be justifiable by their production, experience, or education. The increase in pay due to the minimum wage may even make it economically impossible for the business owner to keep that worker's position anyway; what if the job itself just isn't worth $9/hour?

This is the exact reason why proponents of the minimum wage don't follow their logic to its necessary conclusion. Why doesn't Mr. Obama, if he cares about the little man so much, increase the minimum wage to $15/hour? Or $25/hour? Because by raising the minimum wage, the government forces people out of their jobs, and their jobs out of the country. It's entirely possible to put the entire workforce out of work just by following the logic of minimum wage proponents.

On average, unemployment for young people is 15% higher than it is for adults. Why are young people having difficulty finding jobs today? Because, due to the minimum wage and other regulations, it's too expensive for most companies to risk the time and money necessary to train an inexperienced high school or college graduate who will probably move on to something else within a year or two anyway.

Instead, the business is forced to minimize the risk posed by a higher minimum wage by only hiring over-qualified, over-experienced workers for entry-level jobs that used to be worked by teenagers and college grads. This creates a vicious cycle of unemployment for young people that can't get the experience they need to begin their professional careers; this cycle is compounded in a weak economy. I'm sure every college graduate reading this can at least remember a time when they were staring at a posting on Indeed or Careerbuilder and muttering, "so I need experience before I can get experience?"

I'm still trying to figure it out myself.

Don't let its proponents fool you: they claim that the minimum wage protects the poor and the marginalized of society. The truth is the minimum wage will only create more unemployment and misery for the workers it's supposed to protect. Minimum wage laws, by their very nature, only outlaw jobs that pay less than a totally arbitrary dollar amount while doing nothing to create a more favorable environment for businesses to employ people.

So what's the solution? How about "freedom of contract?" Wouldn't it be a novel idea for people to negotiate their own pay, hours, benefits, etc., without involving government force? If someone wants to take a $5/hour job rather than sit around and do nothing, why shouldn't they be able to? Should a willing worker go jobless or be forced on welfare because his or her experience, education, or production may not merit the government-enforced minimum wage? In a free society, the price of one's labor is an issue that should be decided between the worker and his potential employer, not the government."

.

The "equilibrium" needs to be adjusted when we see a wildly lopsided distribution wealth (which didn't just happen - it was engineered). Productivity is WAY up. Corporate profits are WAY up. Wages are not. That "equilibrium" shit is working very well for a very few.

GrantMercury · 02-22-2013, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HelmutKohl

AFTER wwII man working full time on minimum wage was able to support his unworking wife, 4 kids, had a single family house and a car- full middle class lifestyle- all that for a minimum wage 40 hour week. Now the same job lends the same man in a food stamp program below poverty line. If that was up to Republicans, minimum wage would be $0.25 per hour and children would work instead of wasting time in schools! Americans, keep voting for GOP and starve later

+1

GrantMercury · 02-22-2013, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

What a strange and unfulfilled life you must lead. Clearly you don't spend your time making money, which is a shame. A lot of misguided and wasted energy. Probably too afraid you might be viewed as exploiting a pixel or two.

I'm doing just fine for myself, bro. You needn't worry about me.

Grapesoda · 02-22-2013, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

What a strange and unfulfilled life you must lead. Clearly you don't spend your time making money, which is a shame. A lot of misguided and wasted energy. Probably too afraid you might be viewed as exploiting a pixel or two.

yes only assholes earn money because it fucks everybody else when you EARN money.... it's just like stealing from the 'poor'

sperbonzo · 02-22-2013, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HelmutKohl

AFTER wwII man working full time on minimum wage was able to support his unworking wife, 4 kids, had a single family house and a car- full middle class lifestyle- all that for a minimum wage 40 hour week. Now the same job lends the same man in a food stamp program below poverty line. If that was up to Republicans, minimum wage would be $0.25 per hour and children would work instead of wasting time in schools! Americans, keep voting for GOP and starve later

There is nothing factually correct about this post.

And the GOP is just as bad as the Democrats. They all just want to government to control you.

You guys should really pick up at least a basic economics and history lesson prior to just looking up stuff on google and posting about it.

.

.

GrantMercury · 02-22-2013, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purecane73

it cuts into their bottom line... and i was really surprised to hear him say that because he knows damn well people on welfare still make more than someone making 9$/hour... it's all a ploy to keep the sheep complacent.

Well, I don't really know who makes more, but I too was surprised he suggested $9/hr. It should have been higher - at least as an opening bid.

Remember that a rising tide lifts all boats - if the minimum is set at 9, many jobs will pay more than that. Minimum wage doesn't effect only those making the minimum.

Wizzo · 02-22-2013, 10:29 AM

My question is what adult is worried about minimum wage? I don't know a single person that is concerned about working for minimum wage except my 17year old daughter who even makes above min wage, granted not much more but she would like .75 a hour raise to $9.

BlackCrayon · 02-22-2013, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wizzo

My question is what adult is worried about minimum wage? I don't know a single person that is concerned about working for minimum wage except my 17year old daughter who even makes above min wage, granted not much more but she would like .75 a hour raise to $9.

the working poor. you may not associate with them but there are a lot of them. not everyone in life is a winner but i'd sooner have a prosperous society that treats everyone with respect rather than having to step over homeless people in the streets.

GrantMercury · 02-22-2013, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sperbonzo

There is nothing factually correct about this post.

And the GOP is just as bad as the Democrats. They all just want to government to control you.

You guys should really pick up at least a basic economics and history lesson prior to just looking up stuff on google and posting about it.

.

.

This is what corporate fascists do, you know? When you look around and see millions of working people living in poverty, millions without health care, millions desperate...don't suggest for a moment that there's something wrong with the picture. If you do, expect to be patronized. You'll be directed to various charts, and pompous asswipes will go on at length about "equilibrium" or some such shit. And finally you'll be told you don't have the brains to understand how it all works.

GrantMercury · 02-22-2013, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackCrayon

the working poor. you may not associate with them but there are a lot of them. not everyone in life is a winner but i'd sooner but a prosperous society that treats everyone with respect rather than having to stop over homeless people in the streets.

YOU SOCIALIST SCUM!!!!

GrantMercury · 02-22-2013, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wizzo

My question is what adult is worried about minimum wage? I don't know a single person that is concerned about working for minimum wage except my 17year old daughter who even makes above min wage, granted not much more but she would like .75 a hour raise to $9.

A rising tide lifts all boats. A bump in the minimum would bump the rest. Think of it as "seeping up" rather than "trickle down". It would create demand by putting money back into the economy. I know lots of adults that are concerned with the state of the economy.

tony286 · 02-22-2013, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wizzo

My question is what adult is worried about minimum wage? I don't know a single person that is concerned about working for minimum wage except my 17year old daughter who even makes above min wage, granted not much more but she would like .75 a hour raise to $9.

Actually if you go to grocery stores and places like gnc, fast food. You see less and less kids and more older people doing those jobs. Factory jobs are very few,so where do those people go? They all cant be small business owners or go get degrees. Just hard working folks who are truly fucked.

GrantMercury · 02-22-2013, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

yes only assholes earn money because it fucks everybody else when you EARN money.... it's just like stealing from the 'poor'

What? What a retard.

GrantMercury · 02-22-2013, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony286

Actually if you go to grocery stores and places like gnc, fast food. You see less and less kids and more older people doing those jobs. Factory jobs are very few,so where do those people go? They all cant be small business owners or go get degrees. Just hard working folks who are truly fucked.

That's right.

Quote:

Some minimum-wage workers are younger workers, perhaps saving for college or even contributing to their family expenses, but most minimum wage workers are 20 or older. Additionally, more than a third (35.8 percent) are married, and over a quarter (28.0 percent) are parents. For American families struggling to make ends meet, raising the minimum wage will make a significant difference. Moreover, 21 million children have a parent who will see an increase in their pay as a result of increasing the minimum wage.

http://www.epi.org/publication/snaps...-minimum-wage/

purecane · 02-22-2013, 10:52 AM

please tell me you are not that pompous mike....why do you think most people from other countries immigrate to america? minimum fucking wages....i guess women and children working for pennies a day is fine for you? whatever keeps those nikes on your feet and that little polo guy on your shirt...........

pornguy · 02-22-2013, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sperbonzo

On average, unemployment for young people is 15% higher than it is for adults. Why are young people having difficulty finding jobs today? Because, due to the minimum wage and other regulations, it's too expensive for most companies to risk the time and money necessary to train an inexperienced high school or college graduate who will probably move on to something else within a year or two anyway.

Instead, the business is forced to minimize the risk posed by a higher minimum wage by only hiring over-qualified, over-experienced workers for entry-level jobs that used to be worked by teenagers and college grads. This creates a vicious cycle of unemployment for young people that can't get the experience they need to begin their professional careers; this cycle is compounded in a weak economy. I'm sure every college graduate reading this can at least remember a time when they were staring at a posting on Indeed or Careerbuilder and muttering, "so I need experience before I can get experience?"

.

In and of its self this makes no or little sense.

If you hire someone for minimum wage that has more then enough experience and is " Over qualified " he is just as likely to leave as a young person who you spent the time and money training. Your going to have to train the over qualified about as much as the under. At least the under will be doing it the way you want.

Makes more sense to bring in the younger one and mold them teach them train them and PAY them to stay. People leave because they get offered a better position. Time for the companies to step up and pay what its worth to keep them.

Wizzo · 02-22-2013, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony286

Actually if you go to grocery stores and places like gnc, fast food. You see less and less kids and more older people doing those jobs. Factory jobs are very few,so where do those people go? They all cant be small business owners or go get degrees. Just hard working folks who are truly fucked.

I forget parts of the country aren't like it is here, I could easily find at least dozen help wanted signs within 10 miles of my house for all sorts of jobs and that's usually the last resort people take for hiring people. I have a number of friends with businesses that have a hard time keeping enough people and not paying min. wage but much higher. Hopefully the rest will recover soon, I couldn't imagine getting out of bed for even $9 a hour.

GrantMercury · 02-23-2013, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wizzo

Hopefully the rest will recover soon, I couldn't imagine getting out of bed for even $9 a hour.

Me either. But lots of people do because it's all they've got.

brandonstills · 02-23-2013, 10:35 AM

brandonstills · 02-23-2013, 10:44 AM

And another from the S-dawg

Vendzilla · 02-23-2013, 11:06 AM

Minimum Wages are higher in California than the federal limit, yet here the state is almost bankrupt, you have to get a permit to have a going out of business sale.

What's killing small business for the most part is insurance. Taxes are a joke with all the loop holes. Barry says he wants to close them, but that's not going to happen, Facebook gave Barry 100k and for 2012 they got a 429 million dollar refund.

brandonstills · 02-23-2013, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vendzilla

Minimum Wages are higher in California than the federal limit, yet here the state is almost bankrupt, you have to get a permit to have a going out of business sale.

What's killing small business for the most part is insurance. Taxes are a joke with all the loop holes. Barry says he wants to close them, but that's not going to happen, Facebook gave Barry 100k and for 2012 they got a 429 million dollar refund.

Barry is more of a crony capitalist than the Republicans. He just incites hatred of the rich to get the votes of the left. He doesn't care about anyone except for his cronies. His actions are all about giving taxpayer dollars to corrupt corporations.

PornMD · 02-23-2013, 11:39 AM

I think the problem is that at some point, the American Dream went from "earn a lot of money" to "earn as much money as possible", and that's how many companies, especially investor backed ones, operate. Why pay someone $10 an hour when you can outsource for $3 an hour with only a minimal drop in production and work quality? Why price a product at $2 when you can price it at $3 and most people would still buy it?

Joshua G · 02-23-2013, 11:45 AM

bonzo. that book you just wrote completely fails to account for the overall supply of jobs relative to the supply of labor. AKA, the unemployment rate is caused by too many laborers chasing too few jobs. the wage rate is a pittance as compared to this imbalance.

your right. the minimum wage is higher then the market will bear given this discrepancy. There would be more "jobs" without one. that may be great for the "job creators" & the yacht owners. But the little guy will basically be slaves. So i would argue there is a social benefit for the poor with the minimum wage, even if the natural rate would be lower.

this is why repubs fail at economics. They fail to see the lessons of the late 1800's monopolies, that unfettered capitalism is a trickle up system that ultimately creates a few john d rockellers & a nation of poor people.

as bud fox once said in a good movie, how many more yachts can you buy before your happy?

Joshua G · 02-23-2013, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PornMD

I think the problem is that at some point, the American Dream went from "earn a lot of money" to "earn as much money as possible", and that's how many companies, especially investor backed ones, operate. Why pay someone $10 an hour when you can outsource for $3 an hour with only a minimal drop in production and work quality? Why price a product at $2 when you can price it at $3 and most people would still buy it?

yeah. the religion of shareholder value, globalism & free trade has been a boon for the waltons & the buffets. It has been a disaster for the middle class. & repubs think it would be better without the minimum wage. the lessons of standard oil is totally lost.

96ukssob · 02-23-2013, 12:08 PM

Totally fucking stupid. This now costs most employers not just more money to pay someone, but also more in payroll taxes.

Now prices everywhere will go up to cover these costs then more consumers will bitch about increased costs from food to shitty products at Walmart.

Fact is half the population believes they deserve more than what they are worth and refuse to take a job below $50k a year while they can sit and collect unemployment or welfare. What is the extra $1 to $1.75/hr really going to do for the average employee? Just enough to get them off welfare?

Vendzilla · 02-23-2013, 12:17 PM

Cost of doing business with raised fees for things like Obama Care and increased minimum wages are good for Business?
California is proof that liberals are not about business
Texas is proof that a conservative approach works

http://economy.money.cnn.com/2012/10...ichard-fisher/ funny read

brandonstills · 02-23-2013, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoshGirls Josh

your right. the minimum wage is higher then the market will bear given this discrepancy. There would be more "jobs" without one. that may be great for the "job creators" & the yacht owners. But the little guy will basically be slaves. So i would argue there is a social benefit for the poor with the minimum wage, even if the natural rate would be lower.

this is why repubs fail at economics.

You admit that it will eliminate jobs. How is that a good thing?

What's your definition of a slave? If you have someone that wants to work but have eliminated their job you have just made a poor person.

Economics is not about benefit. It is the science of scarcity and how resources get allocated. It's not republicans that are against minimum wage per say. It is anyone who knows that it won't work.

It will drive labor over seas where there is no such regulation.

If minimum wage works so great, then why not set the minimum wage at $100,000 per hour?

It's nice to want to help the poor, but you don't do that by violating laws of economics. You can't throw rocks into a bucket and hope there will be food. Why do you think there will be economic prosperity by raising the minimum wage. There is no logic or evidence for it.

Just because you want to help the poor doesn't mean your actions will. You're ignoring the law of cause and effect. The action you propose will have the OPPOSITE effect.

BlackCrayon · 02-23-2013, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bossku69

Totally fucking stupid. This now costs most employers not just more money to pay someone, but also more in payroll taxes.

Now prices everywhere will go up to cover these costs then more consumers will bitch about increased costs from food to shitty products at Walmart.

Fact is half the population believes they deserve more than what they are worth and refuse to take a job below $50k a year while they can sit and collect unemployment or welfare. What is the extra $1 to $1.75/hr really going to do for the average employee? Just enough to get them off welfare?

i think people would be more willing to take lower paying jobs if it actually resulted in prices of products and services going down but of course prices will never go down regardless of what pay cuts people take. houses are too expensive, cars are too expensive, food is too expensive, gas is too expensive and now people are expected to work for less? that doesn't make much sense.

brandonstills · 02-23-2013, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoshGirls Josh

So i would argue there is a social benefit for the poor with the minimum wage, even if the natural rate would be lower.

That's a proposition. Your argument is unsound.

You admit that raising minimum wage would eliminate jobs below the equilibrium point.

So if you raise minimum wage, then the person you want to help will not be making more. Therefore, you haven't helped them. Not only that but now they are unemployed. Congrats.

brandonstills · 02-23-2013, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackCrayon

i think people would be more willing to take lower paying jobs if it actually resulted in prices of products and services going down but of course prices will never go down regardless of what pay cuts people take. houses are too expensive, cars are too expensive, food is too expensive, gas is too expensive and now people are expected to work for less? that doesn't make much sense.

All those things are getting cheaper than ever. Look at the stats in terms of amount of time and effort needed to acquire those goods. It's SO much easier. The rise in money required is simply inflation (money is worth less because they print more).

brandonstills · 02-23-2013, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrantMercury

The "equilibrium" needs to be adjusted when we see a wildly lopsided distribution wealth (which didn't just happen - it was engineered). Productivity is WAY up. Corporate profits are WAY up. Wages are not. That "equilibrium" shit is working very well for a very few.

You're right, we need to change the physical laws of the universe in order to make them more fair.

BlackCrayon · 02-23-2013, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brandonstills

All those things are getting cheaper than ever. Look at the stats in terms of amount of time and effort needed to acquire those goods. It's SO much easier. The rise in money required is simply inflation (money is worth less because they print more).

regardless of the reasons why prices continue to rise while wages are not and now people are expected to work for less and less. it just doesn't work for people.

Best-In-BC · 02-23-2013, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stinkyfingers

why would they do that ? they want to tank the country.

Because Americans or The Ones With Solid Moral Grounds Are Not In Charge Anymore

and

Thats from a Canadians point of view

This shit is happening here too, we are slowly turning into British rule.

uniquemkt · 02-23-2013, 02:06 PM

A rise in minimum wage always brings a rise in inflation to compensate. The only reason minimum wage has ever risen is to meet the current (or projected) inflation-adjusted cost of living. You aren't magically making more wealth, you're just making more paper dollars to compensate for that dollar's value being reduced. Raising the minimum wage ahead of inflation will increase the rate of that inflation, raising it behind has at least some potential to reduce the rate.

I am often surprised at how otherwise intelligent and informed people just can't put those pieces together. Historically, minimum wage has never been enough to support a single worker family of 4.

tony286 · 02-23-2013, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brandonstills

You admit that it will eliminate jobs. How is that a good thing?

What's your definition of a slave? If you have someone that wants to work but have eliminated their job you have just made a poor person.

Economics is not about benefit. It is the science of scarcity and how resources get allocated. It's not republicans that are against minimum wage per say. It is anyone who knows that it won't work.

It will drive labor over seas where there is no such regulation.

If minimum wage works so great, then why not set the minimum wage at $100,000 per hour?

It's nice to want to help the poor, but you don't do that by violating laws of economics. You can't throw rocks into a bucket and hope there will be food. Why do you think there will be economic prosperity by raising the minimum wage. There is no logic or evidence for it.

Just because you want to help the poor doesn't mean your actions will. You're ignoring the law of cause and effect. The action you propose will have the OPPOSITE effect.

Why does it always to go to the extreme and silly? Fact we are a consumer based economy ,if people cant afford to consume it doesnt work.
Also the other person saying are sitting on welfare because they cant get a job that pays over 50k. Do you realize two things welfare isnt for life its 5 yrs.That was changed 1996,also do you realize welfare gives them shit. People are under this illusion its big money.
Also walmart paying people as close to nothing as possible ,makes them a ton of money and costs the taxpayer about 400k a store. You are still paying for benefits for these poorly paid people and Walmart makes big profits. Some misfit buying cigarettes or steak with food stamps is treason but the Waltons using gov dollars to fill in what they should be paying thats fine.

tony286 · 02-23-2013, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vendzilla

Minimum Wages are higher in California than the federal limit, yet here the state is almost bankrupt, you have to get a permit to have a going out of business sale.

What's killing small business for the most part is insurance. Taxes are a joke with all the loop holes. Barry says he wants to close them, but that's not going to happen, Facebook gave Barry 100k and for 2012 they got a 429 million dollar refund.

You must not be up on current events
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-...budget-surplus

tony286 · 02-23-2013, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brandonstills

Barry is more of a crony capitalist than the Republicans. He just incites hatred of the rich to get the votes of the left. He doesn't care about anyone except for his cronies. His actions are all about giving taxpayer dollars to corrupt corporations.

Incites hatred for the rich? Please tell me that they should pay what they paid when Clinton was president is really incitement . OR fat cat wall st bankers? He called them mean words but no legal action. And we get stupid shit like HBSC is too big to prosecute. Oh yeah lets grab the pitch folks. Obama is to the right of Nixon. Yep he is this big liberal which when you look at his polices liberal is code for black nothing more.
We are still in two wars and actually he has been more aggressive than bush.
No bankers have gone to jail.
Gave the banks tons of money with no real rules, even after tarp.
Aig gets tons of money and pays out big bonuses not a fucking word. But for homeowners its only for the "responsible" ones they want to help.
The obamacare is a cash grab for insurance companies.
One more time I will ask this. If the Bush tax cuts were so great, why didn't bush make them permanent ? He had the house and the senate.

Vendzilla · 02-23-2013, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony286

You must not be up on current events
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-...budget-surplus

I know all about it and that's based on a proposed budget that might work, as it stands right now, California as of May last year was 15 billion in the hole.

Governor Moonbeam is doing the same thing Barry did, base numbers on a projected increase in tax revenue that will never happen.

Like I said, he wants this, it probably won't happen and if it does, it won't work as projected, it never does

Robbie · 02-23-2013, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony286

Why does it always to go to the extreme and silly? Fact we are a consumer based economy ,if people cant afford to consume it doesnt work.

But what about the price of everything going up more to compensate for the higher wages being paid?

In other words...let's say Minimum Wage Guy (most likely a guy who is brand new at his job and hasn't worked long enough or done a good enough job to get a raise yet) made $100 (just using an easy number)...and his living expenses were $99.

Now the miminum wage goes up and he makes $105. But businesses raise the price of goods to reflect the new higher price of labor costs. So now his living expenses are $104.

Seems to me that all the minimum wage does is just keep driving prices up over the years.

Also, doesn't the minimum wage only apply to full time employees? Sounds to me like a lot of folks are about to become "part time".

Yes...it would be great in a world of unicorns and rainbows if we could just raise the minimum wage and everybody would now have more spending power.

But here in the real world...the price of things will just go up and the new "spending power" will be nullified.

I'd much rather have the minimum wage at $1 an hour and have the cost of things back to where that would actually buy you stuff.

Labor costs are a HUGE part of any business. Wages, matching taxes, retirement funds, health care...it's just ridiculous.

I know that I'm not here on this Earth to take care of other people like they are babies. So why would any other business want to?

I don't see how anybody could think that raising the minimum wage would ever actually help anybody.
And I especially can not understand the thinking behind doing it when unemployment is already so high.

We should be coming up with ways to employ MORE people. Not creating new ways to make labor cost more expensive.

Barefootsies · 02-23-2013, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

We should be coming up with ways to employ MORE people. Not creating new ways to make labor cost more expensive.

Novel concept fine sire.

PornoMonster · 02-23-2013, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sperbonzo

http://simplefactsplainarguments.blo...less-jobs.html

Minimum Wage Laws Equal Less Jobs
With Obama's recent push for an increase in the minimum wage to $9/hour, it's important to look at the consequences of a minimum wage of any (economically relevant) amount. Unfortunately, when one looks at the situation from a logical, supply-and-demand point of view, it becomes obvious that the minimum wage is another example of a law backed by good intentions with unintended, harmful consequences.

Notice the word "equilibrium." That's important.

Firstly, it's completely dishonest to claim that without the minimum wage, we'd all be starving and forced to live off six pennies a day. If a company posted a job for $0.25/hour, I can almost guarantee that they wouldn't get any applications. Labor is a market, and there's a balance. While workers may have to impress employers with their experience and education and such, employers also have to compete for workers. To attract workers to their business, they might offer competitive pay, good medical benefits, advancement opportunities, a good work environment, etc. In a free market, this balance between available jobs and workers is kept relatively stable. It's when the government involves itself through economic regulations like price (wage) controls that the market gets distorted and one group is put at a disadvantage to another.

The problem is that enacting a minimum wage law doesn't suddenly give all the working poor a decent-paying job. Instead, it forces employers to consider many people to be unemployable because their sudden increase in pay may not be justifiable by their production, experience, or education. The increase in pay due to the minimum wage may even make it economically impossible for the business owner to keep that worker's position anyway; what if the job itself just isn't worth $9/hour?

This is the exact reason why proponents of the minimum wage don't follow their logic to its necessary conclusion. Why doesn't Mr. Obama, if he cares about the little man so much, increase the minimum wage to $15/hour? Or $25/hour? Because by raising the minimum wage, the government forces people out of their jobs, and their jobs out of the country. It's entirely possible to put the entire workforce out of work just by following the logic of minimum wage proponents.

On average, unemployment for young people is 15% higher than it is for adults. Why are young people having difficulty finding jobs today? Because, due to the minimum wage and other regulations, it's too expensive for most companies to risk the time and money necessary to train an inexperienced high school or college graduate who will probably move on to something else within a year or two anyway.

Instead, the business is forced to minimize the risk posed by a higher minimum wage by only hiring over-qualified, over-experienced workers for entry-level jobs that used to be worked by teenagers and college grads. This creates a vicious cycle of unemployment for young people that can't get the experience they need to begin their professional careers; this cycle is compounded in a weak economy. I'm sure every college graduate reading this can at least remember a time when they were staring at a posting on Indeed or Careerbuilder and muttering, "so I need experience before I can get experience?"

I'm still trying to figure it out myself.

Don't let its proponents fool you: they claim that the minimum wage protects the poor and the marginalized of society. The truth is the minimum wage will only create more unemployment and misery for the workers it's supposed to protect. Minimum wage laws, by their very nature, only outlaw jobs that pay less than a totally arbitrary dollar amount while doing nothing to create a more favorable environment for businesses to employ people.

So what's the solution? How about "freedom of contract?" Wouldn't it be a novel idea for people to negotiate their own pay, hours, benefits, etc., without involving government force? If someone wants to take a $5/hour job rather than sit around and do nothing, why shouldn't they be able to? Should a willing worker go jobless or be forced on welfare because his or her experience, education, or production may not merit the government-enforced minimum wage? In a free society, the price of one's labor is an issue that should be decided between the worker and his potential employer, not the government."

.

Exactly... Also most jobs do not give raises to the people who have worked up to or past current min wage, thus a Pay Decrease for most workers....

I remember many many years ago when I worked as a security guard during college. I had been there just over a year with 2 raises. Then min wage went up, and the New people now made what I did.

PornoMonster · 02-23-2013, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wizzo

I forget parts of the country aren't like it is here, I could easily find at least dozen help wanted signs within 10 miles of my house for all sorts of jobs and that's usually the last resort people take for hiring people. I have a number of friends with businesses that have a hard time keeping enough people and not paying min. wage but much higher. Hopefully the rest will recover soon, I couldn't imagine getting out of bed for even $9 a hour.

Here in the mid west, I see lots of help wanted signs, and the job section of the newspaper is once again several pages long. Problem is, welfare and other benefits pay more than $9 an hour, so why work...

Cherry7 · 02-23-2013, 05:41 PM

The idea that it is a fair contract between a rich employer and a worker is laughable.

The worker has to find money to live and eat, the capitalist has the wealth and power.

Only Trade Union and socialist political parties can help redress the balance. Then we see whose side the government is really on, when it uses the full force of the state to cripple the unions, slander and destroy any real political opposition to the dictatorship of the rich.

Those proposing not having a minimum are barking mad, you need a minimum amount to keep alive and to breed new workers. Remember if you have a slave you have to feed him and house him, not paying a minimum means you want to have a situation worse than slavery.

A civilized society would have a living wage and a MAXIMUM wage. A maximum wage 3 times the minimum wage.

The government showing which side its on.

02-22-2013, 10:06 AM	#2
stinkyfingers Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 657	why would they do that ? they want to tank the country. __________________ how can i help you today ?

02-22-2013, 10:07 AM	#3
TheSquealer BANNED Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: In Your Head Posts: 23,982	What a strange and unfulfilled life you must lead. Clearly you don't spend your time making money, which is a shame. A lot of misguided and wasted energy. Probably too afraid you might be viewed as exploiting a pixel or two. __________________ Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens. Rochard

02-22-2013, 10:09 AM	#4
purecane Annakin Skywalker Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: megaminds' secret lair Posts: 1,324	it cuts into their bottom line... and i was really surprised to hear him say that because he knows damn well people on welfare still make more than someone making 9$/hour... it's all a ploy to keep the sheep complacent. __________________ [email protected]

02-22-2013, 10:09 AM	#5
sperbonzo I'd rather be on my boat. Industry Role: Join Date: May 2003 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 9,739	http://simplefactsplainarguments.blo...less-jobs.html Minimum Wage Laws Equal Less Jobs With Obama's recent push for an increase in the minimum wage to $9/hour, it's important to look at the consequences of a minimum wage of any (economically relevant) amount. Unfortunately, when one looks at the situation from a logical, supply-and-demand point of view, it becomes obvious that the minimum wage is another example of a law backed by good intentions with unintended, harmful consequences. Notice the word "equilibrium." That's important. Firstly, it's completely dishonest to claim that without the minimum wage, we'd all be starving and forced to live off six pennies a day. If a company posted a job for $0.25/hour, I can almost guarantee that they wouldn't get any applications. Labor is a market, and there's a balance. While workers may have to impress employers with their experience and education and such, employers also have to compete for workers. To attract workers to their business, they might offer competitive pay, good medical benefits, advancement opportunities, a good work environment, etc. In a free market, this balance between available jobs and workers is kept relatively stable. It's when the government involves itself through economic regulations like price (wage) controls that the market gets distorted and one group is put at a disadvantage to another. The problem is that enacting a minimum wage law doesn't suddenly give all the working poor a decent-paying job. Instead, it forces employers to consider many people to be unemployable because their sudden increase in pay may not be justifiable by their production, experience, or education. The increase in pay due to the minimum wage may even make it economically impossible for the business owner to keep that worker's position anyway; what if the job itself just isn't worth $9/hour? This is the exact reason why proponents of the minimum wage don't follow their logic to its necessary conclusion. Why doesn't Mr. Obama, if he cares about the little man so much, increase the minimum wage to $15/hour? Or $25/hour? Because by raising the minimum wage, the government forces people out of their jobs, and their jobs out of the country. It's entirely possible to put the entire workforce out of work just by following the logic of minimum wage proponents. On average, unemployment for young people is 15% higher than it is for adults. Why are young people having difficulty finding jobs today? Because, due to the minimum wage and other regulations, it's too expensive for most companies to risk the time and money necessary to train an inexperienced high school or college graduate who will probably move on to something else within a year or two anyway. Instead, the business is forced to minimize the risk posed by a higher minimum wage by only hiring over-qualified, over-experienced workers for entry-level jobs that used to be worked by teenagers and college grads. This creates a vicious cycle of unemployment for young people that can't get the experience they need to begin their professional careers; this cycle is compounded in a weak economy. I'm sure every college graduate reading this can at least remember a time when they were staring at a posting on Indeed or Careerbuilder and muttering, "so I need experience before I can get experience?" I'm still trying to figure it out myself. Don't let its proponents fool you: they claim that the minimum wage protects the poor and the marginalized of society. The truth is the minimum wage will only create more unemployment and misery for the workers it's supposed to protect. Minimum wage laws, by their very nature, only outlaw jobs that pay less than a totally arbitrary dollar amount while doing nothing to create a more favorable environment for businesses to employ people. So what's the solution? How about "freedom of contract?" Wouldn't it be a novel idea for people to negotiate their own pay, hours, benefits, etc., without involving government force? If someone wants to take a $5/hour job rather than sit around and do nothing, why shouldn't they be able to? Should a willing worker go jobless or be forced on welfare because his or her experience, education, or production may not merit the government-enforced minimum wage? In a free society, the price of one's labor is an issue that should be decided between the worker and his potential employer, not the government." . __________________ Michael Sperber / Acella Financial LLC/ Online Payment Processing [email protected] / http://Acellafinancial.com/ ICQ 177961090 / Tel +1 909 NET BILL / Skype msperber

02-22-2013, 10:29 AM	#13
Wizzo 2011 GFY Hall of Fame! Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Back in Texas! Posts: 15,227	My question is what adult is worried about minimum wage? I don't know a single person that is concerned about working for minimum wage except my 17year old daughter who even makes above min wage, granted not much more but she would like .75 a hour raise to $9. __________________ Looking for Opportunity!

02-22-2013, 10:11 AM	#6
HelmutKohl Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 378	AFTER wwII man working full time on minimum wage was able to support his unworking wife, 4 kids, had a single family house and a car- full middle class lifestyle- all that for a minimum wage 40 hour week. Now the same job lends the same man in a food stamp program below poverty line. If that was up to Republicans, minimum wage would be $0.25 per hour and children would work instead of wasting time in schools! Americans, keep voting for GOP and starve later

02-22-2013, 10:52 AM	#21
purecane Annakin Skywalker Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: megaminds' secret lair Posts: 1,324	please tell me you are not that pompous mike....why do you think most people from other countries immigrate to america? minimum fucking wages....i guess women and children working for pennies a day is fine for you? whatever keeps those nikes on your feet and that little polo guy on your shirt........... __________________ [email protected]

02-23-2013, 10:35 AM	#25
brandonstills Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Chatsworth, CA Posts: 1,964	__________________ Brandon Stills Industry and programming veteran [email protected] \| skype: brandonstills \| ICQ #495-171-318

02-23-2013, 10:44 AM	#26
brandonstills Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Chatsworth, CA Posts: 1,964	And another from the S-dawg __________________ Brandon Stills Industry and programming veteran [email protected] \| skype: brandonstills \| ICQ #495-171-318

02-23-2013, 11:06 AM	#27
Vendzilla Biker Gnome Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: cell#324 Posts: 23,202	Minimum Wages are higher in California than the federal limit, yet here the state is almost bankrupt, you have to get a permit to have a going out of business sale. What's killing small business for the most part is insurance. Taxes are a joke with all the loop holes. Barry says he wants to close them, but that's not going to happen, Facebook gave Barry 100k and for 2012 they got a 429 million dollar refund. __________________ Webair died? Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants think about that

02-23-2013, 11:39 AM	#29
PornMD Mainstream Businessman Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: San Diego Posts: 9,291	I think the problem is that at some point, the American Dream went from "earn a lot of money" to "earn as much money as possible", and that's how many companies, especially investor backed ones, operate. Why pay someone $10 an hour when you can outsource for $3 an hour with only a minimal drop in production and work quality? Why price a product at $2 when you can price it at $3 and most people would still buy it? __________________ Want to crush it in mainstream with Facebook ads? Hit me up.

02-23-2013, 11:45 AM	#30
Joshua G dumb libs love censorship Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 8,198	bonzo. that book you just wrote completely fails to account for the overall supply of jobs relative to the supply of labor. AKA, the unemployment rate is caused by too many laborers chasing too few jobs. the wage rate is a pittance as compared to this imbalance. your right. the minimum wage is higher then the market will bear given this discrepancy. There would be more "jobs" without one. that may be great for the "job creators" & the yacht owners. But the little guy will basically be slaves. So i would argue there is a social benefit for the poor with the minimum wage, even if the natural rate would be lower. this is why repubs fail at economics. They fail to see the lessons of the late 1800's monopolies, that unfettered capitalism is a trickle up system that ultimately creates a few john d rockellers & a nation of poor people. as bud fox once said in a good movie, how many more yachts can you buy before your happy?

02-23-2013, 12:08 PM	#32
96ukssob So Fucking Banananananas Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: If I was in your ass you'd know it Posts: 12,991	Totally fucking stupid. This now costs most employers not just more money to pay someone, but also more in payroll taxes. Now prices everywhere will go up to cover these costs then more consumers will bitch about increased costs from food to shitty products at Walmart. Fact is half the population believes they deserve more than what they are worth and refuse to take a job below $50k a year while they can sit and collect unemployment or welfare. What is the extra $1 to $1.75/hr really going to do for the average employee? Just enough to get them off welfare? __________________ Email: Clicky on Me

02-23-2013, 12:17 PM	#33
Vendzilla Biker Gnome Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: cell#324 Posts: 23,202	Cost of doing business with raised fees for things like Obama Care and increased minimum wages are good for Business? California is proof that liberals are not about business Texas is proof that a conservative approach works http://economy.money.cnn.com/2012/10...ichard-fisher/ funny read __________________ Webair died? Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants think about that

02-23-2013, 02:06 PM	#41
uniquemkt Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 305	A rise in minimum wage always brings a rise in inflation to compensate. The only reason minimum wage has ever risen is to meet the current (or projected) inflation-adjusted cost of living. You aren't magically making more wealth, you're just making more paper dollars to compensate for that dollar's value being reduced. Raising the minimum wage ahead of inflation will increase the rate of that inflation, raising it behind has at least some potential to reduce the rate. I am often surprised at how otherwise intelligent and informed people just can't put those pieces together. Historically, minimum wage has never been enough to support a single worker family of 4.

02-23-2013, 05:41 PM	#50
Cherry7 Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: UK Posts: 3,564	The idea that it is a fair contract between a rich employer and a worker is laughable. The worker has to find money to live and eat, the capitalist has the wealth and power. Only Trade Union and socialist political parties can help redress the balance. Then we see whose side the government is really on, when it uses the full force of the state to cripple the unions, slander and destroy any real political opposition to the dictatorship of the rich. Those proposing not having a minimum are barking mad, you need a minimum amount to keep alive and to breed new workers. Remember if you have a slave you have to feed him and house him, not paying a minimum means you want to have a situation worse than slavery. A civilized society would have a living wage and a MAXIMUM wage. A maximum wage 3 times the minimum wage. The government showing which side its on. __________________ My Neighbour Butterfly PORN-The Musical The Long Goodbye Cinema Erotique