Naive Coding Question re: Bitcoins

[BFT3K]

I know this is probably a dumb question for those in-the-know but...

Let's say you have a site and want to try out bitcoins as THE ONLY payment option. A person pays for access, but what program/script generates a un/pw for this person to access the site?

Without a 3rd party biller, how is this done in realtime?

Again, sorry for the naive question - I'm not too bright.

[Dankasaur]

Utilizing Paul Markham's Magic Join Links™ ® ©

[NYMD]

Assuming you have only one site and one subscription type... You host a page that takes sign up submissions and generates an invoice to a bitcoin processor like bitpay or coinbase. The invoice that they generate looks like this:

bitpay-dot-com/invoice?id=nOGLY_LjFKyQWt7RO12DmONjJhB4BcZavkr9Sao qziU=

The person pays it.

When the transaction is complete, the processor posts back the invoice information to you telling you it was a confirmed sale. That is where a script you writes receives the postback, generates a u/p and sends it to the new member.

You'll need a system that tracks the invoice that is generated as well as the email the person uses to sign up. You are responsible for the user management and expiry. And I guess the crux of your question is that it isn't done in realtime -- there is a delay as the person pays the bitcoin invoice and you receive confirmation it is complete.

[BFT3K]

Originally Posted by NYMD

Assuming you have only one site and one subscription type... You host a page that takes sign up submissions and generates an invoice to a bitcoin processor like bitpay or coinbase. The invoice that they generate looks like this:

bitpay-dot-com/invoice?id=nOGLY_LjFKyQWt7RO12DmONjJhB4BcZavkr9Sao qziU=

The person pays it.

When the transaction is complete, the processor posts back the invoice information to you telling you it was a confirmed sale. That is where a script you writes receives the postback, generates a u/p and sends it to the new member.

You'll need a system that tracks the invoice that is generated as well as the email the person uses to sign up. You are responsible for the user management and expiry. And I guess the crux of your question is that it isn't done in realtime -- there is a delay as the person pays the bitcoin invoice and you receive confirmation it is complete.

Thanks, but I'm still a bit confused... I assume the confirmation of the sale will come via an email, no?

Wouldn't that still require you to manually address the email, even if you can dump it into a script to generate the un/pw?

I'm clearly not a coder, so sorry again if these questions are pedestrian, but if a person wants to join while you are away from your computer, how would you be granting access in realtime?

[NYMD]

Originally Posted by BFT3K

Thanks, but I'm still a bit confused... I assume the confirmation of the sale will come via an email, no? Doesn't that still require you to manually address the email, even if you can dump it into a script to generate the un/pw?

I'm clearly not a coder, so sorry again if these questions are pedestrian, but if a person wants to join while you are away from your computer, how would you be granting access in realtime?

The confirmation comes two ways -- via email like you described is one way. So yes you could manually do the accounts when you receive the email.

The second way is a "data postback" -- that means the processor's server sends a packet of information to your server with that same completion information. You need a custom script on your server to handle that information, create accounts, etc.

[Hornydog4cooter]

interesting thread here is a bump for you

[BFT3K]

Originally Posted by NYMD

The confirmation comes two ways -- via email like you described is one way. So yes you could manually do the accounts when you receive the email.

The second way is a "data postback" -- that means the processor's server sends a packet of information to your server with that same completion information. You need a custom script on your server to handle that information, create accounts, etc.

Does this script already exist, or would you have to hire a coder to write one for you, on a specific server-need basis?

[DWB]

You can start by doing it manually if you're trying to get up and running quickly and don't know how to have it post back. Once you get confirmation of the transaction, you can send them user/pass.

When you create a check out page / invoice, you can add user fields like email, username, password, and so on. All of that comes to you.

[NYMD]

Originally Posted by BFT3K

Does this script already exist, or would you have to hire a coder to write one for you, on a specific server-need basis?

I believe the only option is custom at this point. There is a market for CCBill or Epoch or someone to take bitcoins as an option so that there is user management for sites like yours that don't have custom development time available.

[Vapid - BANNED FOR LIFE]

Rpc + Json.

[BFT3K]

Originally Posted by DWB

You can start by doing it manually if you're trying to get up and running quickly and don't know how to have it post back. Once you get confirmation of the transaction, you can send them user/pass.

When you create a check out page / invoice, you can add user fields like email, username, password, and so on. All of that comes to you.

Sure, but doing it manually will not provide realtime access, that's all I'm saying. The bitcoin customer needs to be aware of this, or they will not be happy.

It looks like coinbase.com may be working on the issue, but it's not ready yet (see below):

[woj]

If anyone needs it setup, I can set it up for a few bucks, icq: 33375924 or email me at woj#at#wojfun#.#com to discuss details

[NYMD]

It sounds like subscription means a type of recurring payment not necessarily that they will be handling your user management. Obviously they can't "deduct" from a user's btc wallet so I'm assuming it will just be an email blast to renew their subscription before it expires.

edit: I could be wrong and subscription could very well mean user management

[BFT3K]

Originally Posted by woj

If anyone needs it setup, I can set it up for a few bucks, icq: 33375924 or email me at woj#at#wojfun#.#com to discuss details

Good to know. Looks like a great opportunity for a new script for you to make and sell!

Originally Posted by NYMD

It sounds like subscription means a type of recurring payment not necessarily that they will be handling your user management. Obviously they can't "deduct" from a user's btc wallet so I'm assuming it will just be an email blast to renew their subscription before it expires.

edit: I could be wrong and subscription could very well mean user management

Yeah, I guess it could go either way.

Any coinbase.com people here on GFY yet?

[DWB]

Originally Posted by BFT3K

Sure, but doing it manually will not provide realtime access, that's all I'm saying. The bitcoin customer needs to be aware of this, or they will not be happy.

If you don't have 24 hours support, then you are correct. WOJ just posted above that he can set it up, so there ya go.

For what it's worth, I've seen a handful of porn sites using bitcoin that do mention they have to manually add the user. Growing pains right now, but it will all get worked out really quick I'm sure.

[AmeliaG]

We are beta-testing a gateway for this. Please drop us a line via the contact form at SpookyCash if you are interested in licensing once we finish the beta.

[BFT3K]

Any benefits or pitfalls between accepting Bitcoins via BitPay.com vs CoinBase.com?

[Jel]

Originally Posted by AmeliaG

We are beta-testing a gateway for this. Please drop us a line via the contact form at SpookyCash if you are interested in licensing once we finish the beta.

done

[NYMD]

Originally Posted by BFT3K

Any benefits or pitfalls between accepting Bitcoins via BitPay.com vs CoinBase.com?

Coinbase's API is currently more developed. BitPay is a bit simpler to get integrated. I don't know how the admin panel compares. Coinbase offers a wallet system for end users and tries to help people get bitcoins but BitPay is currently just a payment processor. Both are young companies and still having a few growing pains if you google around.

[BFT3K]

Originally Posted by NYMD

Coinbase's API is currently more developed. BitPay is a bit simpler to get integrated. I don't know how the admin panel compares. Coinbase offers a wallet system for end users and tries to help people get bitcoins but BitPay is currently just a payment processor. Both are young companies and still having a few growing pains if you google around.

Cool, thanks. Do both process globally. I saw somewhere that Coinbase was US only, but I could be wrong. I have to go back and check...

[NYMD]

Originally Posted by BFT3K

Cool, thanks. Do both process globally. I saw somewhere that Coinbase was US only, but I could be wrong. I have to go back and check...

Given some of the comments on how unstable coinbase's software is at this early stage, I'm appreciating the simplicity of BitPay's API right now... www-dot-reddit-dot-com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1cppem/coinbase_are_good_people_my_tale_of_customer/ and www-dot-reddit-dot-com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1coz10/warning_coinbasecom_is_having_major_problems_keep/

[Joshua G]

it would be such an advancement, to get away from all the payment processing bullshit of the current deal. no more needing visa to approve what you produce. no more 15% processing fees. no more annual assrape fees for nothing. no more chargeback bullshit from users.

would be great to see the industry & also customers shift from visa to bitcoin to move that money!

[adultmobile]

Originally Posted by JoshGirls Josh

no more needing visa to approve what you produce. no more 15% processing fees.

In fact I would suggest to run bitcoins (bitcoind) on your server and no need bitpay or coinbase or any third party processor or company. Opensource php libs in github:

https://github.com/search?l=PHP&q=bi...e=Repositories
https://github.com/search?l=PHP&q=mt...e=Repositories
https://github.com/search?l=PHP&q=bt...e=Repositories

Epoch-like or CCBILL-like companies are not really a need there. Any average php guy can use free scripts over your bitcoin demon running in your server, check mtgox + btc-e for price every 15 minutes and so on.

Just I think the real issue is exchange BTC<->USD. Time to time those exchanges BTC<->USD will have bank accounts frozen and perhaps money you have there lost all or in part. Someone remembers webmasterchecks issue? They was (and still are) fully compliant, honest and ok... but because just 1 their accounts used wmc for gambling (without wmc knowledge, and against wmc TOS), this 1 account holder was busted... prosecutor does his job, then all wmc accounts had been frozen (with bank account) for many months, even if those wmc account holders had nothing to do with gambling or illegal - it was very boring event, and of course adult/porn companies are NOT helped by anyone in these cases, we are an hated and lower rights cathegory. Now compare: always there will be "at least one" who use mtgox, btc-e or else money exchange system for bad stuff (let's say .. a lot) and when busted, prosecutor can freeze a whole bank of generic exchanges, so your money is frozen for year(s) or lost. It is much like you host your legal site in same server of illegal stuff, and the server is seized and offline, your're offline too, and perhaps even investigated.

Example from this week:

https://bitfloor.com/
2013.04.17 I am sorry to announce that due to circumstances outside of our control BitFloor must cease all trading operations indefinitely. Unfortunately, our US bank account is scheduled to be closed
2013.04.20 The bank has issued us a check for the remaining account balance. The ETA for receiving the check is around 10 days. Until then, we will be unable to make any further payouts. We are exploring various options for returning your funds.

Said so, there is still cool pieces in bitcoin, just I still believe next versions of cryptocurrencies will replace the flawed bitcoins at some point.

[helterskelter808]

I would suggest banknotes in an aluminum lined envelope.

[BFT3K]

Originally Posted by adultmobile

In fact I would suggest to run bitcoins (bitcoind) on your server and no need bitpay or coinbase or any third party processor or company. Opensource php libs in github:

https://github.com/search?l=PHP&q=bi...e=Repositories
https://github.com/search?l=PHP&q=mt...e=Repositories
https://github.com/search?l=PHP&q=bt...e=Repositories

Epoch-like or CCBILL-like companies are not really a need there. Any average php guy can use free scripts over your bitcoin demon running in your server, check mtgox + btc-e for price every 15 minutes and so on.

Just I think the real issue is exchange BTC<->USD. Time to time those exchanges BTC<->USD will have bank accounts frozen and perhaps money you have there lost all or in part. Someone remembers webmasterchecks issue? They was (and still are) fully compliant, honest and ok... but because just 1 their accounts used wmc for gambling (without wmc knowledge, and against wmc TOS), this 1 account holder was busted... prosecutor does his job, then all wmc accounts had been frozen (with bank account) for many months, even if those wmc account holders had nothing to do with gambling or illegal - it was very boring event, and of course adult/porn companies are NOT helped by anyone in these cases, we are an hated and lower rights cathegory. Now compare: always there will be "at least one" who use mtgox, btc-e or else money exchange system for bad stuff (let's say .. a lot) and when busted, prosecutor can freeze a whole bank of generic exchanges, so your money is frozen for year(s) or lost. It is much like you host your legal site in same server of illegal stuff, and the server is seized and offline, your're offline too, and perhaps even investigated.

Example from this week:

https://bitfloor.com/
2013.04.17 I am sorry to announce that due to circumstances outside of our control BitFloor must cease all trading operations indefinitely. Unfortunately, our US bank account is scheduled to be closed
2013.04.20 The bank has issued us a check for the remaining account balance. The ETA for receiving the check is around 10 days. Until then, we will be unable to make any further payouts. We are exploring various options for returning your funds.

Said so, there is still cool pieces in bitcoin, just I still believe next versions of cryptocurrencies will replace the flawed bitcoins at some point.

Lots of good info, thanks.

I wouldn't personally use my own server to do this, out of numerous fears and concerns, but I may try a site out using CoinBase or BitPay, just to see how it goes.

The lag time between a surfer wanting to join, and their need to purchase bitcoins to do so (which apparently takes some effort) is a pitfall, as is the currency fluctuation, but it may worth an experiment or two.

I've written this before, in a few of these threads...

I am not a gambling man. If I were to ever use bitcoins as a payment option for a site membership, I would never hold any bitcoins in reserve.

A person pays $10 to $20 in bitcoins, and as soon as humanly possible, I would want that money wired into my account.

I think coinbase pays out once daily (but I could be wrong). There is always the chance that the exchange goes up or down a bit before you get paid, and that is a risk, but if you cash out on a daily basis the risk is relatively low. Even if the currency crashes 100% the most you would lose is one day of bitcoin join sales, so no big deal.

I would not trade or horde bitcoins however, as again, I am not a gambling man.

[BFT3K]

Originally Posted by JoshGirls Josh

it would be such an advancement, to get away from all the payment processing bullshit of the current deal. no more needing visa to approve what you produce. no more 15% processing fees. no more annual assrape fees for nothing. no more chargeback bullshit from users.

would be great to see the industry & also customers shift from visa to bitcoin to move that money!

Yup, but on the downside, at the moment there does not appear to be any logical recurring billing scenario that would make any sense, and I have no idea how you would track or compensate affiliates.

A great idea for experimental stand-alone sites though... or maybe as a decline-redirect page for people without NATS or multiple biller options.

There is also the possibility that the whole system gets shut down, should the bankers and governments of the world find it to be too easy for people to conduct business in the shadows, so it's long-term existence is not guaranteed.

I would cash out daily, just to be safe.

[Nathan]

The point about using BitPay is that they can directly convert the bitcoins you charge into USD and they also allow you defining a USD price instead of a bitcoin price. Makes it a bit safer in terms of revenue.

In general, the systems work just like any other biller BFT3K. I do not see where the confusion is. All these billers work the same way. You pay via Bitcoin, something like BitPay does a postback to your backend, or use use bitcoind to take coins directly and that handles the postback in some shape.

The bigger problem I see with bitcoins from a tech standpoint that transactions are not INSTANT! They require CONFIRMATION to be safe and permanent. Meaning for you to know they are real transactions, they need multiple confirmations in the blockchain. I am not sure how BitPay handles this, so not sure how it would work.

[NYMD]

Bitpay advised that with a digital product, we should go with the highest speed transaction not requiring a confirmation. They've not had any transactions not eventually confirm even at the high speed. If I were selling physical goods, I would go with at least 1 node confirm required or their slowest speed, which requires 6.

[adultmobile]

Originally Posted by NYMD

Bitpay advised that with a digital product, we should go with the highest speed transaction not requiring a confirmation. They've not had any transactions not eventually confirm even at the high speed. If I were selling physical goods, I would go with at least 1 node confirm required or their slowest speed, which requires 6.

They say for "digital product" is enough wait 1 block confirm (10-15 min), well, that's because they think digital = no cost if lost. But for cam site you have to pay the model, and deposits of $100 to $300 at once are not rare at all. So I would set this to 3 to 6 blocks, perhaps depending on amount. From bitcoin faq:

* Transactions are broadcasted within seconds and verified (added to next block in blockchain) within 10 to 60 minutes, average 15-20. see: http://bitcoinstats.org/
* Double Spend: a malicious user tries to spend to two different recipients at the same time. Bitcoin mining + blockchain create a consensus on the network about which of the two transactions will win. This means it can happen you get confirmation on first block but then on second or third block (so after 10 * 2 or 10 * 3 minutes) you see the "other" transaction won, and you're scammed.
* Confirmation: a transaction has been verified by the network (added in next block of blockchain). Each new confirmation decreases the risk of a reversal exponentially. For larger amounts ( ex. 1000 $USD and above ), wait for more confirmations, for ex: 6. Then 6 blocks or 1 hour is enough to make reversal computationally impractical (no double spend).

Now if you provide revenue share paid quickly AND accept bitcoins verified at just 1st block added (after just the about 10 minutes), some smart one could do double spend to you AND him, and have part of his sales going to HIM after you accounted his revshare. Of course you system should be very retard not to doublecheck after 1st block chain for double spend case AND alert you AND blacklist the affiliate - but most systems are very retard after all.

[Jel]

the real fun and games are going to start when mr pirate rips your site, and sets up bitcoin billing.

atm you go to bitpay, create merchant account, and pretty much that's it. enter your pricing, a bank account to transfer to, and you're set up as far as any checking goes - there pretty much isn't any.

[borked]

Originally Posted by adultmobile

They say for "digital product" is enough wait 1 block confirm (10-15 min), well, that's because they think digital = no cost if lost. But for cam site you have to pay the model, and deposits of $100 to $300 at once are not rare at all. So I would set this to 3 to 6 blocks, perhaps depending on amount. From bitcoin faq:

* Transactions are broadcasted within seconds and verified (added to next block in blockchain) within 10 to 60 minutes, average 15-20. see: http://bitcoinstats.org/
* Double Spend: a malicious user tries to spend to two different recipients at the same time. Bitcoin mining + blockchain create a consensus on the network about which of the two transactions will win. This means it can happen you get confirmation on first block but then on second or third block (so after 10 * 2 or 10 * 3 minutes) you see the "other" transaction won, and you're scammed.
* Confirmation: a transaction has been verified by the network (added in next block of blockchain). Each new confirmation decreases the risk of a reversal exponentially. For larger amounts ( ex. 1000 $USD and above ), wait for more confirmations, for ex: 6. Then 6 blocks or 1 hour is enough to make reversal computationally impractical (no double spend).

Now if you provide revenue share paid quickly AND accept bitcoins verified at just 1st block added (after just the about 10 minutes), some smart one could do double spend to you AND him, and have part of his sales going to HIM after you accounted his revshare. Of course you system should be very retard not to doublecheck after 1st block chain for double spend case AND alert you AND blacklist the affiliate - but most systems are very retard after all.

great informational post

[BFT3K]

[adultmobile]