America fucked up in the Middle East.

[Martin]

You remove the secular dictators that crushed any and all up rising with extreme prejudice and this is what you get. All these different groups/tribes have always been there since Jesus walked the earth. These guy had their thumb on them. Now you're trying to fight these battle with one hand tied to your dicks and hoping drone strikes slow them down when you end up just helping their cause. I only see this getting worse and might even end up putting troops back on the ground.


I wish I could find the clip were Bin Landen said after 911 that he was going draw the US into the middle east and bleed you dry. Taking a play they used against the USSR.

[Martin]

Go onto youtube and watch project for a new american century. These are the men who got you into this mess..

[dyna mo]

................

[SuckOnThis]

[Barry-xlovecam]

In retrospect: There was no fight to pick with Saddam -- we should have left him alone to kill his own (an any one else in the area) in the Iraqi way

Trading one evil for another made no sense.
Assassinating bin Laden and others involved in al-Qaeda would have made sense and saved a fuck-load of money and lives too.

George W. Bush's America -- that is an America I would prefer to put in the past.

[L-Pink]

Originally Posted by SuckOnThis

And Saddam's fucked up kids would have ruled for many years after.

[dyna mo]

america was mucking up the me long before bushie. just like the other countries involved over there.

it all pretty much started with creation of israel, then syria shit, then iran shit, then more shit etc., using the region to counter russia/communism. add in greed for oil combined with the fact that me foreign policy for any country is a joke.

[Rob]

The U.S. and her allies have been trying to form the Middle East into a financial free-for-all since the end of WWII. Ever wonder why Iran hates America so much? It has nothing to do with Muslim vs. Christian. Look up the Shah of Iran and how the U.S. ROYALLY FUCKED the Iranian people. Then you'll understand why the U.S. is so hated not only in the Middle East, but all over the world. I hate to admit it, but we're nothing more than global raiders.

The French Resistance was doing pretty much the same thing against the Nazis in WWII that so called terrorist groups are doing today. Did we label them as terrorists or nationalist? Patriots? What if Iran came over and tried to impose their economic will on the United States using their superior military. Would U.S. citizens take it laying down or go full blown Wolverine on their asses? Then we would be considered terrorists by the media and vilified by the world. It's a fucked up situation any way you look at it.

[Rob]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

america was mucking up the me long before bushie. just like the other countries involved over there.

This. Multiplied by 100,000.

it all pretty much started with creation of israel,

Blame Hitler for that one. He wanted all the Jews in a centralized locations, Palestine, so when the Nazis won the war, they could wipe them out in one swift blow.

then syria shit, then iran shit, then more shit etc.,

That was greed perpetuated by rich industrialists buying politicians and drumming up phony wars.

using the region to counter russia/communism.

Afghanistan is and will always be a quagmire. No force will ever conquer that area, regardless of military or economic strength . They bankrupted the USSR and now they're doing it to the U.S. Did we not learn anything from the Russians during the Cold War?

add in greed for oil combined with the fact that me foreign policy for any country is a joke.

Don't forget about the drug trade! Afghanistan produces like 90% of the heroin in the world. What better way to fund illegal wars than with illegal money. Can't rightfully pay for black ops without black market money. Ask Reagan about the Iran-Contra scandal and the CIA selling cocaine and crack in the U.S. to fund their clandestine missions. Or how about the CIA and Air America in Vietnam/Cambodia? This shit has been going on for longer than Bush, Obama, and even Reagan.

[klinton]

and of course it is not America that will get "fruits" of its own actions - but mostly other countries (from Europe and Middle East)

Originally Posted by Martin

You remove the secular dictators that crushed any and all up rising with extreme prejudice and this is what you get. All these different groups/tribes have always been there since Jesus walked the earth. These guy had their thumb on them. Now you're trying to fight these battle with one hand tied to your dicks and hoping drone strikes slow them down when you end up just helping their cause. I only see this getting worse and might even end up putting troops back on the ground.


I wish I could find the clip were Bin Landen said after 911 that he was going draw the US into the middle east and bleed you dry. Taking a play they used against the USSR.

[Barry-xlovecam]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

america was mucking up the me long before bushie. just like the other countries involved over there.

When the oil resources became known the fighting started. Like everywhere this is really all about who owns the wealth.

Before that, the ME was just a sand pile for 500 years.

[Martin]

Originally Posted by Rob

The U.S. and her allies have been trying to form the Middle East into a financial free-for-all since the end of WWII. Ever wonder why Iran hates America so much? It has nothing to do with Muslim vs. Christian. Look up the Shah of Iran and how the U.S. ROYALLY FUCKED the Iranian people. Then you'll understand why the U.S. is so hated not only in the Middle East, but all over the world. I hate to admit it, but we're nothing more than global raiders.

The French Resistance was doing pretty much the same thing against the Nazis in WWII that so called terrorist groups are doing today. Did we label them as terrorists or nationalist? Patriots? What if Iran came over and tried to impose their economic will on the United States using their superior military. Would U.S. citizens take it laying down or go full blown Wolverine on their asses? Then we would be considered terrorists by the media and vilified by the world. It's a fucked up situation any way you look at it.

I agree with you Rob. Im talking in regards to the most resent actions taken. They just had to kick the hornets nest.

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam

When the oil resources became known the fighting started. Like everywhere this is really all about who owns the wealth.

Before that, the ME was just a sand pile for 500 years.

that happened during ww2.

[Rob]

The Ottoman Empire had the Middle East on lock down until WWI. Once the empire collapsed, it turned into a free-for-all money grab.

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by Rob

The Ottoman Empire had the Middle East on lock down until WWI. Once the empire collapsed, it turned into a free-for-all money grab.

now that you mention it, i think i recall that the oil in the ME was realized by the west around ww1.

[JuicyBunny]

This thread PROVES AGAIN Noam Chomsky speaks the truth culling facts from historical data yet so many here hate him.
The west is about done. Long live the new flesh.

[Mutt]

Originally Posted by Rob

This. Multiplied by 100,000.

Blame Hitler for that one. He wanted all the Jews in a centralized locations, Palestine, so when the Nazis won the war, they could wipe them out in one swift blow.

Amazing, the mountain of research done by the world's best WWII historians for the past 70 years and you've uncovered Hitler wanted to send the Jews to Palestine.

Stop reading websites written by Nazi loving conspiracy kooks.

[Barry-xlovecam]

Actually, the weirdest theory I ever heard was that Hitler was the :messiah: He shamed the world into partitioning Palestine into a Jewish and Palestinian-Arab state.

[Mutt]

After doing some reading - the Nazis did have a plan to export not exterminate the Jews early in the 1940s, to take the island of Madagascar which was controlled by France from France after defeating them and sending all European Jews there where it would be run as a police state by the Nazis. It was an unworkable plan.

As far as Palestine, many Jews had already made their way there in the early 20th century escaping the Russian Empire, settling in with the Arabs dwelling in Palestine. During the 1930's with Hitler in power, German and other European Jews who could see something wicked coming wisely got out, including Albert Einstein, emigrating to America and Palestine. The numbers of Jews in Palestine had now grown to about 150,000, 30% of the population of Palestine at the time which didn't make the Arabs happy. Britain since the end of WWI controlled Palestine under a mandate.

The Nazis hooked up in battle with Great Britain in North Africa early in WWII, had they defeated Britain in North Africa they did plan to move into Palestine and wipe out the Jews there with help from the Arabs.

[Rob]

Originally Posted by Mutt

Amazing, the mountain of research done by the world's best WWII historians for the past 70 years and you've uncovered Hitler wanted to send the Jews to Palestine.

Stop reading websites written by Nazi loving conspiracy kooks.

I read a book titled, "Inge: A Girl's Journey Through Nazi Europe", and they referenced that several times. You got the wrong dude if you think I read conspiracy theory websites, especially Nazi loving ones. I've heard several scholars suggest Palestine in Hitler's final solution and plans during the Holocaust. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. It won't be the first time.

[PSDan]

It's time for countries like the US, GB, Canada etc. to get out of the Middle East, and let the chips fall where they fall. It's a no win scenario that only worsens the strife, and makes everyone hate us. Call a day a day, and let them work it out themselves. Provide training to fight insurgents etc., and third party diplomacy. Other than that, nothing has changed since we punched our way in decades ago. Enough of our blood has been spilled, and enough of our money has been spent on the futility ot it.

[PSDan]

Originally Posted by SuckOnThis

I agree. He was SOB bastard and completely ruthless, but he kept the peace. His mistake was playing WMD games with the Americans: especially Bush and Cheney who needed little excuse (or evidence) to take him out. Left a vacuum in Iraq. Vacuums in the Middle East tend to be filled senseless and violent tribal chaos.

[Mutt]

Originally Posted by Rob

I read a book titled, "Inge: A Girl's Journey Through Nazi Europe", and they referenced that several times. You got the wrong dude if you think I read conspiracy theory websites, especially Nazi loving ones. I've heard several scholars suggest Palestine in Hitler's final solution and plans during the Holocaust. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. It won't be the first time.

The 'Final Solution' is well documented, it came midway through the war, and that was to build/convert concentration camps into extermination/death camps. To kill every last Jew in Europe. Prior to the Final Solution there were plans to export Jews - one was the Madagascar plan and another, once Hitler defeated Russia, to send the Jews to a settlement in Siberia.

Hitler did want to expel the Jews to anywhere outside Europe before the war, including to Palestine. I don't think you can characterize that as part of the 'final solution'. In 1933 the Nazis made an agreement with the Jewish organizations in Germany to facilitate Jews emigrating to Palestine whereby the Jews had to buy their way out and Germany profited. Here's the details of the deal called the Haavara Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement

"The Haavara Agreement was thought among certain circles to be a possible way to rid the country of its supposed "Jewish problem." The head of the Middle Eastern division of the foreign ministry, Werner Otto von Hentig, supported the policy of concentrating Jews in Palestine. Von Hentig believed that if the Jewish population was concentrated in a single foreign entity, then foreign diplomatic policy and containment of the Jews would become easier. Hitler's support of the Haavara Agreement varied throughout the thirties. Initially, Hitler criticized the agreement, but shortly reversed his opinion, and continued to support it, in the face of opposition, through 1939"

[Mutt]

I'm all for getting right out of the Middle East's business, they are as backwards as they were a hundred years ago if not a thousand years ago. Were it not for oil we'd have never been much interested in it, we didn't create their problems, but we sure do exacerbate them. There are no good guys over there, just some worse than others. The mass of people even in the oil rich countries are kept poor and uneducated.

They need us to buy their oil as much or more than we need their oil. If we have to suffer some oil boycotts and higher oil prices so be it - it will just make us push harder and faster to switch what we can to alternative energy sources. We export a lot of this new oil that's been found in the US, it's 'light, sweet' oil whatever that means and all our oil refineries are set up to refine the heavy crude oil. I'm sure with a fraction of the trillions we have spent in warring in the Middle East we could build new modern refineries to turn the light sweet oil into gas and other petroleum products.

As for the Israel question, that land was desolate for hundreds of years, of no importance to Arabs or Jews before 1900. It became important to Arabs only when Jews began returning there and when Israel was founded. Israel has a right to exist and a Palestinian state has a right to exist. The Jews in Palestine had agreed to a UN partition plan that was fair, if accepted by the Arabs there'd have been two states since 1947. The Arabs just refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist and continuously claim they will wipe Israel off the map. And there's no reason on this earth why Israel shouldn't exist there other than pure hate from the Arab side. I'd continue to help Israel financially to defend its right to exist.

[RandyRandy]

Originally Posted by Rob

What if Iran came over and tried to impose their economic will on the United States using their superior military. Would U.S. citizens take it laying down or go full blown Wolverine on their asses? Then we would be considered terrorists by the media and vilified by the world.

My feelings exactly.