Killswitch

Who'd have thought that what would kill WordPress wasn't all the "I'm gonna rebuild it in a modern codebase" people, but the leaders of the community themselves.

https://wordpress.org/news/2024/09/wp-engine-banned/

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King Mark

Brass, you can pm me if you need to talk about it bro. I'm here for you ��

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cerulean

This is really the crux of the issue, I think. I'm not a lawyer. WordPress foundation believes that WP Engine is abusing their trademark, and looking at WP Engine, they really do make it seem like they are WordPress, or at least are the best implementation of WordPress. And they've made a fortune out of it. So, of course, I'm sure WordPress' lawyer greenlit them in saying: "you can't use the tools we provide to access our labor, for free, if we're actively in a legal battle." I don't think anyone would think that's strange. They can still download WordPress, and use it under GPL, but they can't use WordPress.org's repository and servers.

This is a very interesting and complicated situation, though, because it's all about open source software. On the one hand, WordPress is OSS, but the licensing for GPL has implemented some rules and restrictions for WordPress which I think most people ignore completely. Are derivative works like WP Engine forced to comply with GPL? And, does the GPL license allow unfettered access to WordPress' servers in addition to their code repository? Trademarks, on the other hand, are a different best entirely, and I'm sure there's going to be a good argument about what is considered fair use.

Can I call myself a "WordPress developer", but I can't call myself a "developer for WordPress", because I don't actively develop WordPress?

Does this have an even bigger implication with software development on the Web? Right now, if I couldn't use OSS through Packagist or NPM to build software for my clients, and I had to recreate everything from scratch, it would not only greatly extend the development timeline, but it would cost a fortune.

From their license page:

From Matt directly:

This is ultimately going to be the legal test, and I'm somewhat surprised it has taken this long for OSS to be challenged around WordPress. WP Engine basically takes WordPress, heavily manipulates it, possibly makes it less secure, and then sells that AND the hosting. If they just sold WordPress hosting, like Vacares, or MojoHost do, then that would be totally different. WP Engine is completely dependent on WordPress, their contributions to WordPress are poor, and they are actively biting the hand that feeds.

I personally don't like the way it calls into question whether I can use the term WordPress when I advertise my services, but I also don't think WP Engine are the good guys here, and I think they're going to ultimately lose this battle.

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Killswitch

Nah I'm good, I've been shitposting and trolling Matt Mullenweg on X (formerly Twitter) almost a whole week about it.

https://x.com/joshmanders/status/1839101211091296722

https://x.com/joshmanders/status/1839136514652954630

https://x.com/joshmanders/status/1839146103448514730

https://x.com/joshmanders/status/1839135223541309910

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Ironhorse

FYI the portfolio page in your sig is verbroken for me https://www.ceruleansoftware.net/portfolio/

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Killswitch

Just so you know, Automattic invested in WPEngine's Series A round. They blessed all of this over a decade ago.

The problem now is that WPE is doing better than Wordpress.com and Mullenweg wants to extort them and is willing to burn the whole community down for 8% of WPE's revenue (which is literally in the millions) ANNUALLY.

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fris

they want to make certain words trademarked, so you need permission to use them even for plugins.

‘Managed WordPress’ & ‘Hosted WordPress’

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WP Stuff

Killswitch

He's crashing spectacularly. https://x.com/joshmanders/status/1839399277384323345

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cerulean

I don't understand the logic that if you "bless" something over 10 years ago, that it somehow makes it okay to continue to support it a decade or so later. I don't subscribe to that notion.

If Matt's right, and I'm sure his board of directors, and his lawyers, have told him he is, then:

WP Engine is cooked.

WPE should have forked WordPress. They have the money. They have the manpower. Matt and Mike did it with b2/cafe. They already have MU's, why not go one step further? That way they can make all the fundamental changes they have been making, and they are also fully responsible for the fallout of that, and there are no trademark issues because of the GPL.

But they don't. They rely entirely on WordPress SVN. Why is that?

I guess the lawyers will figure it out; if they've violated trademarks, or the GPL. I don't agree with the way Matt describes the trademark issue, but the thing about trademarks is that it's a legal issue. It's not a moral one. WP Engine has violated the license agreement, according to Matt, so this is the fallout.

It's dramatic that they shut off access to WordPress.org, but did WPE really think they would get away with spitting on the bear and not getting swiped?

The more you look into WPE, the worse it gets. I'm not sure how developers can support them. They are contrary to the OSS community. They change the implementation, get you hooked into their platform, and then they tell everyone that's the true WordPress experience. They're much worse than WordPress.com, which I take issue with, but they are so much more expensive and predatory.

And you're right, WPE's success isn't new. But I don't buy that Matt's reaction is entirely about money like WPE is saying it is. He talks specifically about their contributions to OSS, which are little. Money is definitely a HUGE part of this, don't get me wrong. But... WPE gets everything that WordPress.org gives for free, doesn't contribute to the community AT ALL, and then straight up charges others for it as a SaaS. At least WordPress.com developers contribute to OSS. I don't believe WPE's story, despite my reservations about Matt.

Let's just take a quick detour on WPE's pricing and plans:

https://wpengine.com/plans/

Look at these prices! How can anyone justify it? $20/mo for a SINGLE WP SITE, with 10GB of storage, without theme or plugin management, which is FREE with WordPress and FREE with most hosts who use things like Softaculous? Oh boy!

* WooCommerce, which is also free, costs $4/mo.
* Auto plugin updates, as I mentioned before, also free, is $3/mo as an add-on?
* WordFence, which is free, is $19/mo?
* Page Speed Boost, which is also free with WP Super Cache or WP Fastest Cache, is $17?
* Multisite, another free feature of WordPress, costs extra after signup.
* The isolated tier starts at $400/mo. For WordPress.
* They use MU's and require at least 1-2 hours of migration by a qualified developer to escape WP Engine's tendrils if you want to migrate.

WordPress.com, at its highest tier outside of "Enterprise" is $45. In Adult, we have Mojo and Vacares and they do much better without nickel and diming you. I'm not sure the exact prices, but I think Vacares is on par or cheaper than WordPress.com.

In my mainstream business, I affiliate for a host in my area that offers all of this, for free, for $13/mo with cPanel and Softaculous. That's <25%.

So to the larger point, does this really affect the community that badly? I really don't think it does. Other hosts are not doing what WPE is doing, which is actively developing outside of OSS. WordPress.com, and Automattic, support WordPress.org not only financially, but they also do so from a contributory standpoint with OSS. The core community is OSS. If all of these folks are beholden to the rules of OSS, WPE should be too, or pay some kind of price.

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just a punk

WordPress.org have always been complete assholes, and when they have conflicts with partners and ordinary developers, they always take it out on uninvolved WordPress users.

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