what do you think about a national sales tax?

[hydro]

It looks good on paper but how would it work out in real life. Would internet sales be taxed?

copy and paste of HR 25 and S 1493

Imposes a 23% (tax-inclusive) sales tax on the purchase of new goods and services in the U.S.

Lets workers keep their entire paycheck and retirees keep their entire pension.

Abolishes the IRS and ends all audits of individual taxpayers.

Replaces the federal income tax. Frees individuals from ever filing a tax return again.

Replaces all payroll taxes including Social Security and Medicare taxes. Current Social Security and Medicare benefits would not change.

Replaces corporate and self-employment taxes.

Eliminates all hidden federal taxes.

Provides a universal rebate equal to the sales taxes paid on essential goods and services to ensure that no American pays taxes on necessities.

Replaces all estate, gift, and capital gains taxes.

Dramatically lowers tax rates for low- and middle-income Americans.

Closes all tax loopholes.

Brings accountability to tax policy.

Lets American-made products compete fairly

[BoNgHiTtA]

Im a graduate of USC school of economics, and all I can say is thats dumb shit.

[VeriSexy]

"A Republican Congress working with a Republican president created the massive new Medicare prescription-drug entitlement, passed a new, subsidy-crammed farm bill, committed hundreds of billions of dollars to war efforts, and loaded up on pork-barrel spending. Meanwhile, taxes were reduced?on wage earners, investors, and companies. The end result: We collected about the same amount of taxes in fiscal 2004 as we did in fiscal 1999. But we spent 34 percent more. The total national debt has risen 30 percent in the past four years. "

First he cut taxes and now he sees he needs money ASAP

http://slate.msn.com/id/2109203/

[detoxed]

WOW, Imagine that, no need to launder drug money anymore! Cant be charged with tax evasion when you get billions and dont report anything.

[detoxed]

How would people get mortgages without tax returns? Thats also used to prove income a lot.

[Giorgio_Xo]

A VAT is a very effective form of taxation since it gathers revenue for the government at the comsumer level. My main concern would be the underground economy it would create. How would the government enforce it? How would the government protect those below the poverty line? A flat tax on comsumption would be unfair to those that earn less.

The most important issue would be to repeal the 16th Amendment before instituting a sales tax. If it isn't repealed first, the government would likely collect both an income tax and a sales tax!

What about local governments right to impose a sales tax? A 24% national sales tax plus the local Bay Area sales tax of 8.25% would lead to a total of 32.5% tax on comsumption plus California residents would still pay 5-9% state income tax! Sales tax isn't a deductable expense.

[BoNgHiTtA]

Its dumb on so many levels. The main one being US citizens would just use every means possible to purchase outside of the country. Imagine paying 24% more for everything.


Don't get me wrong, consumption taxes work, just not to this extreme. This creates too many oppurtunities, especially for people at the borders to abuse purchasing goods from another country.

[hydro]

Originally posted by detoxed
How would people get mortgages without tax returns? Thats also used to prove income a lot.

Very good question

[CET]

Originally posted by BoNgHiTtA
Im a graduate of USC school of economics, and all I can say is thats dumb shit.

I don't believe you, because most every economist that has ever looked at this idea since its inception in 1969 has said that the economy will double in size within 10 years of this being passed.

[WiredGuy]

I can just see how thousands of accountants would love this idea when they're unemployed.

WG

[Drake]

Originally posted by detoxed
WOW, Imagine that, no need to launder drug money anymore! Cant be charged with tax evasion when you get billions and dont report anything.

haha nice

[CET]

Originally posted by detoxed
How would people get mortgages without tax returns? Thats also used to prove income a lot.

Are you serious? That's money that's already been paid and is being given back. Tax returns are essentially giving the government a 0% interest loan. You give the government a loand and when it's paid back people feel like the government's doing them a favor. Keep your tax money, pay it if you have to. If you want some set aside, then set up a draft from your paycheck into a checking account, you'll be better off for it interest wise.

[Drake]

Lots of good questions to consider in this thread. Doesn't look viable.

[CET]

Originally posted by Giorgio_Xo
A VAT is a very effective form of taxation since it gathers revenue for the government at the comsumer level. My main concern would be the underground economy it would create. How would the government enforce it?

How is sales tax collected today?

Originally posted by Giorgio_Xo
How would the government protect those below the poverty line? A flat tax on comsumption would be unfair to those that earn less.

This was answered in the initial post. Essentials, up to a certain amount, are rebated at the beginning of the month.

Originally posted by Giorgio_Xo
The most important issue would be to repeal the 16th Amendment before instituting a sales tax. If it isn't repealed first, the government would likely collect both an income tax and a sales tax!

I don't know if that's part of this bill or not, but it's part of the fair tax plan.

www.fairtax.org

Originally posted by Giorgio_Xo
What about local governments right to impose a sales tax? A 24% national sales tax plus the local Bay Area sales tax of 8.25% would lead to a total of 32.5% tax on comsumption plus California residents would still pay 5-9% state income tax! Sales tax isn't a deductable expense.

That much tax is already imbedded into a product's price. You will essentially be paying the same amount for products and services with a larger pay check, since you won't be paying income tax or pay roll tax.

[playa]

It works on the state Level.. I know texas and florida doesn't have state income tax. not sure if it will do well on the federal side

[CET]

Originally posted by BoNgHiTtA
Its dumb on so many levels. The main one being US citizens would just use every means possible to purchase outside of the country. Imagine paying 24% more for everything.


Don't get me wrong, consumption taxes work, just not to this extreme. This creates too many oppurtunities, especially for people at the borders to abuse purchasing goods from another country.

You already pay that much imbedded tax in the products and services you buy. This would leave the end price of products and services essentially unchanged but you will have a larger pay check, since you won't be paying income tax or pay roll tax.

[CET]

Originally posted by WiredGuy
I can just see how thousands of accountants would love this idea when they're unemployed.

WG

The tax code is nearly impossible to keep up with. A tax accountant is a job of busy work and that's it. Refrigerators put a lot of ice truck drivers out of work too. Would you rather keep the tax code we have or keep a few accountants employed doing essentially meaningless work?

[ItBurnsWhenIpee]

My main question is how do you get money back for writeoffs then? What if it takes you tons of money to make money?

[stocktrader23]

Originally posted by CET
I don't believe you, because most every economist that has ever looked at this idea since its inception in 1969 has said that the economy will double in size within 10 years of this being passed.

Same thing I've heard about it as well.

Also, to the person that said something about those below poverty level.. KRL posted about this the other day and it was said in that thread that everyone would receive a refund of taxes on spending up to poverty level every month.

[stocktrader23]

Originally posted by ItBurnsWhenIpee
My main question is how do you get money back for writeoffs then? What if it takes you tons of money to make money?

There are no write-offs. Tax as we know it would end. You would keep every penny you made and only pay taxes when you purchase something. It's simple, efficient, and from what I can see a damn good replacement for the monster we have today. No more gov. chasing down people for tax evasion, doing audits, etc.

[ItBurnsWhenIpee]

Originally posted by stocktrader23
There are no write-offs. Tax as we know it would end. You would keep every penny you made and only pay taxes when you purchase something. It's simple, efficient, and from what I can see a damn good replacement for the monster we have today. No more gov. chasing down people for tax evasion, doing audits, etc.

So how do rich people pay more taxes than poor people? It sounds like a flat sales tax rate. Not all rich people buy a lot more than poor people.

[stocktrader23]

Originally posted by detoxed
WOW, Imagine that, no need to launder drug money anymore! Cant be charged with tax evasion when you get billions and dont report anything.

"The underground economy (drug dealers, prostitutes, gamblers, etc.) would end up paying federal taxes when they buy a new car, fancy clothes or glitzy jewelry."

http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/mld...n/10114202.htm

[stocktrader23]

Originally posted by ItBurnsWhenIpee
So how do rich people pay more taxes than poor people? It sounds like a flat sales tax rate. Not all rich people buy a lot more than poor people.

Tax could only be delayed, not avoided. Regardless of where the money goes it will get spent one day. And I do think most rich spend more than the poor.

[BRISK]

Originally posted by detoxed
WOW, Imagine that, no need to launder drug money anymore! Cant be charged with tax evasion when you get billions and dont report anything.

Solution: End the war on drugs

[playa]

Originally posted by WiredGuy
I can just see how thousands of accountants would love this idea when they're unemployed.

WG

accountants do more than just Income Tax

[ItBurnsWhenIpee]

I'm starting to think this is pretty genius

[stocktrader23]

Originally posted by ItBurnsWhenIpee
I'm starting to think this is pretty genius

Yeah, we just need to see the exact details they try to pass if they press forward with it.

[ItBurnsWhenIpee]

Why does that link say April 1st would just be another day? I thought it was April 15th...

[Matt_WildCash]

i"m sorry but those figuires are total BULLSHIT!!

Countries around the world have 10-17% VAT/ GST (goods and service tax) and they still have normal tax of 20-50% on top of that. The Usa might throw in a national 10% tax like other countries NZ or Australia have them. Its a nice way of them taking even more money off your plate.

a 23% tax wouldn't cover half the lost income from all the wage tax taht will not be collected

[stocktrader23]

Originally posted by Driven
i"m sorry but those figuires are total BULLSHIT!!

Countries around the world have 10-17% VAT/ GST (goods and service tax) and they still have normal tax of 20-50% on top of that. The Usa might throw in a national 10% tax like other countries NZ or Australia have them. Its a nice way of them taking even more money off your plate.

a 23% tax wouldn't cover half the lost income from all the wage tax taht will not be collected

It would cover it as well as other benefits. Other countries have always had higher taxes.

[BRISK]

Originally posted by Driven
i"m sorry but those figuires are total BULLSHIT!!

Countries around the world have 10-17% VAT/ GST (goods and service tax) and they still have normal tax of 20-50% on top of that. The Usa might throw in a national 10% tax like other countries NZ or Australia have them. Its a nice way of them taking even more money off your plate.

a 23% tax wouldn't cover half the lost income from all the wage tax taht will not be collected

Those other countries likely also have higher government spending. For example: publicly funded health care.

[d00t]

if this comes into effect, ill gladly work for anyone on this board, buy products and claim the twenty odd percent rebate back since I'm not a citizen.

Instant discounts for everyone who can "employ" a foreigner.

Sounds good but too many holes.

[studio]

It could work, but 23% is to much... I don't think it would need to be that high. I read some stories on it and they were saying 10% would be more than enough.

All states but 2 have the system in place for collecting sales tax.

It would take some work... Hard work as Bush says... but it just might work. May have to work real hard like on Saturdays too... LOL

[studio]

As for getting loans, the bankers would have to learn how to read a financial statement. And the accountants would still be in business preparing them.

[$5 submissions]

Just like with any piece of legislation, you have to read it first for any loopholes.

The problem VAT sucks ass here in the Philippines is because vertically integrated entities dodge the VAT entirely through an "initial producer" loophole.

[BRISK]

Does anyone have a list of countries that have successfully used this system?

[Thurbs]

i like not having to report to anyone.

[kenny]

Originally posted by CET
The tax code is nearly impossible to keep up with. A tax accountant is a job of busy work and that's it. Refrigerators put a lot of ice truck drivers out of work too. Would you rather keep the tax code we have or keep a few accountants employed doing essentially meaningless work?

Good way of putting it.

[slapass]

Originally posted by ItBurnsWhenIpee
My main question is how do you get money back for writeoffs then? What if it takes you tons of money to make money?

No worries we would pay tons of money to those out of work accountants to prove everythingis an expense. Voila we have paperwork back and this whole thing collapses but a hell of an idea otherwise.

[kenny]

I don't think they can every rely on a system like that.

[bluff]

I detect a few people who can't read again in this thread again. For example: slapass

[lil2rich4u2]

Originally posted by detoxed
How would people get mortgages without tax returns? Thats also used to prove income a lot.

paystubs + VOE (verification of employment) form completely filled out and verbally verified.

you can use that now, sure it would work then also.

[aaron]

this would be fucking awesome if we could get it to work.

[CET]

Originally posted by ItBurnsWhenIpee
So how do rich people pay more taxes than poor people? It sounds like a flat sales tax rate. Not all rich people buy a lot more than poor people.

Money has to be spent at the retail level eventually. I think it's safe to say that rich people more buy things like Rolls Royces then non-rich people.

[CET]

Originally posted by Driven
i"m sorry but those figuires are total BULLSHIT!!

Countries around the world have 10-17% VAT/ GST (goods and service tax) and they still have normal tax of 20-50% on top of that. The Usa might throw in a national 10% tax like other countries NZ or Australia have them. Its a nice way of them taking even more money off your plate.

a 23% tax wouldn't cover half the lost income from all the wage tax taht will not be collected

Sure it would, because our income tax does not exceed 40% and individuals making under $15,000/year don't have to pay any income tax. There are just many people in a 0% tax bracket as there are people in the highest tax bracket.

[CET]

Originally posted by d00t
if this comes into effect, ill gladly work for anyone on this board, buy products and claim the twenty odd percent rebate back since I'm not a citizen.

Instant discounts for everyone who can "employ" a foreigner.

Sounds good but too many holes.

That loophole doesn't exist, you just made it up. ALL purchases at the retail level are subject to a sales tax.

[detoxed]

Originally posted by CET
Are you serious? That's money that's already been paid and is being given back. Tax returns are essentially giving the government a 0% interest loan. You give the government a loand and when it's paid back people feel like the government's doing them a favor. Keep your tax money, pay it if you have to. If you want some set aside, then set up a draft from your paycheck into a checking account, you'll be better off for it interest wise.

WHAT THE FUCK?????????????? THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MY POST. I STATED THAT TAX RETURNS ARE USED WHEN GETTING MORTGAGES. NOT A TAX REFUND MORON.


THIS IS A TAX RETURN:
http://www.taxhistory.org/thp/presre...56E750075F0F4/$file/bush03.pdf

[CET]

Originally posted by studio
It could work, but 23% is to much... I don't think it would need to be that high. I read some stories on it and they were saying 10% would be more than enough.

All states but 2 have the system in place for collecting sales tax.

It would take some work... Hard work as Bush says... but it just might work. May have to work real hard like on Saturdays too... LOL

That much tax is already embedded into the cost of all goods and services. By removing that embedded tax and putting it on top as a flat tax, the cost of goods and services at the retail level will remain unchanged.

[NoHassleSteve]

Originally posted by slapass
No worries we would pay tons of money to those out of work accountants to prove everythingis an expense. Voila we have paperwork back and this whole thing collapses but a hell of an idea otherwise.

There would be no need to prove something was an "expense" if you won't be taxed on your income.

[Sosa]

I don't think I wold like to be taxed at 23% on everything I buy. Sure I can keep all that money I get from my checks and not pay taxes but what fun is that when it is just sitting in the bank?