Money or Ethics what matters to you more?

[Karupted Charles]

I have been talking with several companies over the last few months. It is clear to me many care more about money then ethics. People I used to enjoy spending time with and even called friends have over the last several months opened up sites that either directly steal our content and use it without permission or go and support others that do it. Combined with the prechecked hidden cross sales and various other things I have heard as of late it got me thinking.

We are working on some projects and only want people that have left dirty money on the table by not doing shady things to make money. If you are an affiliate that believes in long term money making or a program owner that believes in the fair treatment of both surfers and webmasters drop me a line. We would like to get to know who you are and see if we can adapt together instead of trying to cheat each other out of a quickbuck.

[StuartD]

Ethics all the way... which sometimes really burns my ass.
When I think of the opportunities I've had if only my ethics hadn't gotten in the way... it's rather sickening.

[munki]

Ethics always...

Money comes and goes... your character, reputation, and ability to sleep easy at night because you are doing things right, last forever.

Always interested in solid opportunities and projects... stay in touch.

[Deej]

Money is very important, but I dont bend my ethics to gain more at a time...

[klaze]

Slowly moving towards Money.

Honestly i've learned that nobody gives a fuck about me so me giving a fuck about them is not going to do anything beneficial for me.

I have my own ethics but if they don't agree with yours I don't care.

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by StuartD

Ethics all the way... which sometimes really burns my ass.
When I think of the opportunities I've had if only my ethics hadn't gotten in the way... it's rather sickening.

Originally Posted by munki

Ethics always...

Money comes and goes... your character, reputation, and ability to sleep easy at night because you are doing things right, last forever.

Always interested in solid opportunities and projects... stay in touch.

These two statements more a less sum it up for me..

[Kudles]

Umm I would have to say money!!

[Bugbee]

ethics, always ethics

lets get together for a drink Charles!!!

[klaze]

Originally Posted by Karupted Charles

I have been talking with several companies over the last few months. It is clear to me many care more about money then ethics. People I used to enjoy spending time with and even called friends have over the last several months opened up sites that either directly steal our content and use it without permission or go and support others that do it. Combined with the prechecked hidden cross sales and various other things I have heard as of late it got me thinking.

We are working on some projects and only want people that have left dirty money on the table by not doing shady things to make money. If you are an affiliate that believes in long term money making or a program owner that believes in the fair treatment of both surfers and webmasters drop me a line. We would like to get to know who you are and see if we can adapt together instead of trying to cheat each other out of a quickbuck.

Didn't you have to go against people's ethics and what the majority of the world believes to be "Good ethics" to create and operate the business you run?

What's ethics?

Just say it you don't like Tubes and Ripping off surfers.. but don't get all high and mighty about it.

[CDSmith]

It's possible to have both, so I refuse to choose one over the other.

I'll say this though, people who are willing to cheat to get ahead are almost always short-term thinkers.

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by CDSmith

It's possible to have both, so I refuse to choose one over the other.

I'll say this though, people who are willing to cheat to get ahead are almost always short-term thinkers.

So true Smitty...

[Robbie]

I think you have to treat people fairly. I've never screwed anybody over in this business and pretty much work my butt off to make my money. This content theft is pretty outrageous and I have taken steps to stop it from happening with my stuff.

Pre-checks? Don't bother me at all as long as they are visible. Nothing like the old dialer days...now THAT was fucking some surfers over.

And having a brother whose in the car industry I would say that every person here who has ever bought a car doesn't realize what happened to you on the backend of that deal.

Think in terms of 100 hidden pre-checked x-sells and then you start to get the picture of what happens to a consumer buying a car. LOL

Same with most any business. It's called "making money". Furniture is marked up 300% from wholesale to retail and the list goes on.

Now if a company gets crazy on you with truly hiden x-sells or a chain of x-sells that nails your ass even if you uncheck it then that is a big problem. Then you're pretty much doing what the dialers did 6 years ago.

Speaking of a few years ago...I seem to remember losing a ton of money on rebills when a certain company closed their affiliate program because they didn't feel they needed it anymore. Thousands of dollars a month in rebills just...gone. I hope that never happens again.

[GrouchyAdmin]

Your closing statement made me grin. Whether the double-entendre was intentional, or not, I appreciated it.

[klaze]

How do you even know what a person's ethics really are??

I could BS you all day on my good ethics and moral standing and you'd never know.

These people who u'd call "friends" apparently did...

[Karupted Charles]

Originally Posted by klaze

Didn't you have to go against people's ethics and what the majority of the world believes to be "Good ethics" to create and operate the business you run?

What's ethics?

Just say it you don't like Tubes and Ripping off surfers.. but don't get all high and mighty about it.

Would it make you feel better if I said business ethics? Or is your point more that since some people don't agree with your choice in business it gives you a free pass to do anything you want?

It's more then tubes and ripping off surfers but that is pretty much what I said and I don't recall getting high or mighty.

As far as the what is ethics that is something you have to answer for yourself. We all know right from wrong and I think even most of the thieves in the business know when they are doing something wrong.

[Brad Mitchell]

I'll take ethics and the slow grow, any day. I'm in it to win it! To make that happen, everything I do is long term.

Brad

[Karupted Charles]

Originally Posted by Robbie

I think you have to treat people fairly. I've never screwed anybody over in this business and pretty much work my butt off to make my money. This content theft is pretty outrageous and I have taken steps to stop it from happening with my stuff.

Pre-checks? Don't bother me at all as long as they are visible. Nothing like the old dialer days...now THAT was fucking some surfers over.

And having a brother whose in the car industry I would say that every person here who has ever bought a car doesn't realize what happened to you on the backend of that deal.

Think in terms of 100 hidden pre-checked x-sells and then you start to get the picture of what happens to a consumer buying a car. LOL

Same with most any business. It's called "making money". Furniture is marked up 300% from wholesale to retail and the list goes on.

Now if a company gets crazy on you with truly hiden x-sells or a chain of x-sells that nails your ass even if you uncheck it then that is a big problem. Then you're pretty much doing what the dialers did 6 years ago.

Speaking of a few years ago...I seem to remember losing a ton of money on rebills when a certain company closed their affiliate program because they didn't feel they needed it anymore. Thousands of dollars a month in rebills just...gone. I hope that never happens again.

Thanks for your input. I have to clarify something here also though. Marking up a product 300% is fine if it is fair market value. Marking it up 300% is fine if it not fair market value also as long as you do not sell it for 1 price then charge another.

I never expect that anyone will 100% agree with anyone's choice of ethics as they are as individual as our taste in what is hot or what is a good deal. The point was more of a if your sick of dealing with guys that will stab you in the back for a buck and you have made choices that left money on the table cause you thought it was wrong I want to get to know you. Maybe you and I can see eye to eye and I can make some new business associates.

[Robbie]

I'm in agreement. I can't stand thieves or liars. I just have been watching such a big deal made over x-sells with other affiliates making money grabs at it and claiming it's part of their revenue when they already take the lions share and it pisses me off.

I just want people to understand that everybody is in this to make money. Every business is in business to make money. The car dealerships do it one way, the grocery store another. And when you run a business based on the only affiliate model in business that pays these kind of percentages...you HAVE to find a way to be lucrative.

Hell, the vaunted "mainstream" affiliate programs pay 3, 4, and 5 percent on a sale. And THEN they steal your customer with email spam after the sale. You lose your customer and never get another sale.

But as far as wanting to deal with honest people in this business...I think that's what most of us here want to do. The guys I have business relationships with have my back 100%. And that includes some of the ones who have been vilified by trolls for having x-sells.

I trust my little circle not to fuck me over. And yes, like you, I'd like to widen that circle. But it's not easy. And that's why these webmaster shows are much more than "broventions".

I like to look a man in the eye and talk to him. I know that con men can fool you in person too. But still...

It's a good way to take the measure of a person and add in other variables such as reputation (and I ain't talking about the fake reps that some of these trolls on GFY stick on people), accomplishment, past history, etc.

I'm sure that there are plenty of guys on here who will jump in this and say that YES they have great ethics now let's work together. Don't know how many of 'em may be worth a damn though. lol

[the Shemp]

is semi-ethical okay ?

[halfpint]

ethics ?? it took me a whole year to find out that there are very few people with ethics in the adult biz..and Im not one of them any more

[Jman]

Originally Posted by the Shemp

is semi-ethical okay ?

It is if you are Canadian

[Deej]

Originally Posted by the Shemp

is semi-ethical okay ?

is there dirt on your shoes or on your knees? god forbid your waist...

[GT-Omar]

Ethics by far!

I've been gracious enough to grow in this business around some of the most respectable people in the biz. It's plain and simple to see why they are who they are, and ethics has 99.9% to do with it. I won't get into a long drawn out discussion here, as I can understand why Charlie feels the way he does, but to those whom don't get it.

pigs get fed, and hogs get slaughtered.

[the Shemp]

Originally Posted by Deej

is there dirt on your shoes or on your knees? god forbid your waist...

whats wrong with my waist?

[WiredGuy]

Lets be realistic here, sales are down and a lot of webmasters are looking for ways to go back to the level of income we were used to.

To accomplish that, there needs to be some aggressive tactics, and for me, between a sponsor offering $50/join with pre-checked cross sales, popups, dialers, up selling in the members area and a clean sponsor offering $30/join, I'm taking the $50/join.

I would love to say ethics but realistically my sales are way down compared to last year and my expenses have only gone up that I'm looking for realistic ways to increase income that yes, I will take a certain degree of bending ethics to make up on those lost sales. I won't step into the realm of illegal, but I will take aggressive billing as an option.

So I guess you can consider me as morally flexible.
Take of it what you will, I'm being honest here.
WG

[mattsbeachhouse]

Originally Posted by klaze

Slowly moving towards Money.

Honestly i've learned that nobody gives a fuck about me so me giving a fuck about them is not going to do anything beneficial for me.

I have my own ethics but if they don't agree with yours I don't care.

Wow, for once I agree with Klaze.

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by halfpint

ethics ?? it took me a whole year to find out that there are very few people with ethics in the adult biz..and Im not one of them any more

At least you're honest about it British bird.

[BradM]

Money.

From a business standpoint out customers are jackasses either way. If we simply refuse a refund, instead of giving it to them we just saved $300 and they are only 9% more pissed off than if we had refunded them. Since we are a 1 product company, it doesn't matter if they hate us or not - we have nothing else to sell them. It's a vanity product - if you buy it, you buy it. Don't want it? This isn't Ross or Mervins or Costco, you can't bring back and refund a 6 month old vintage picture frame you decided you don't want the day before the refund period lapses.

Fuck customers. They are not always right, in fact they are normally absolutely wrong. Modern consumers are far too educated. We receive chargebacks from people with signature confirmation 3 months after purchase - after they say "I can't buy groceries this month, can I get my money back?" and we say no, so they CB. We send the conversation to Visa and win the CB.

Businesses are becoming more jaded, consumers are becoming more jaded, and in a round about way everyone is right to be mad.

I don't do anything illegal. Ever. Never. I would never pre-check cross sales with no clickwrap. I would never randomly charge credit cards for no reason with no goods. I would NEVER steal from a customer.

But what I will do is walk the line on the legal side of things and make the most money possible for myself and our affiliates.

I'd also like to quote Robbie:

"I just want people to understand that everybody is in this to make money. Every business is in business to make money. The car dealerships do it one way, the grocery store another. And when you run a business based on the only affiliate model in business that pays these kind of percentages...you HAVE to find a way to be lucrative."

What I do is nowhere near as bad as what car dealers do, etc. You're right man, we all have to find a way to make money. So long as we aren't breaking laws I see NO issues.

I've been spanked harder by not reading fine-print at a car dealer than a surfer EVER would by not unchecking a cross sell at a porn site.

[mattsbeachhouse]

Ethics can only be truly defined by whether or not one loses sleep over their actions. Everyone in some shape or form, is unethical. Hardly any person in any type of business is ethical. But ethics is a very vague term, just like obscenity. What is obscene to one person is perfectly ok to another. Ethics are no different.

The actuality is that ethics is nothing more than an attempt by one person to get others to conform to their thought, beliefs, and actions. The Pedos think its perfectly ethical to have sex with minors if they pay for the experience. The porners think whatever they can do to make money from their customers is ethical otherwise these practices would not be used over and over by many.

Ethics, like moral turpitude is nothing more than a trap word with no definition measurable for all. The ones who practice "good ethics" are those who struggle financially. Those with "bad ethics" are the ones who prosper and lets face it, they are the ones who calls the shots. You either play by their rules or suffer missing the piece of pie.

Ethics, simply put, is complete and utter bullshit.

Sheep are ethical because they cannot think for themselves or because they are looking for approval from someone else. Do the acts that you can live with. Ethics can only be defined when a person reaches a point that they will do something under any circumstances, whether they stand to gain something or not. That is when ethics can be defined....individually. Group ethics are determined by the majority in society.

[qxm]

And the fucking tube sites do it again! Broken friendships, destruction of the porn industry's ethics.........when OR where will this end!!!!!!!

[mattsbeachhouse]

Originally Posted by BradM

Money.

From a business standpoint out customers are jackasses either way. If we simply refuse a refund, instead of giving it to them we just saved $300 and they are only 9% more pissed off than if we had refunded them. Since we are a 1 product company, it doesn't matter if they hate us or not - we have nothing else to sell them. It's a vanity product - if you buy it, you buy it. Don't want it? This isn't Ross or Mervins or Costco, you can't bring back and refund a 6 month old vintage picture frame you decided you don't want the day before the refund period lapses.

Fuck customers. They are not always right, in fact they are normally absolutely wrong. Modern consumers are far too educated. We receive chargebacks from people with signature confirmation 3 months after purchase - after they say "I can't buy groceries this month, can I get my money back?" and we say no, so they CB. We send the conversation to Visa and win the CB.

Businesses are becoming more jaded, consumers are becoming more jaded, and in a round about way everyone is right to be mad.

Any chance that customers retaliate by pirating the material to get even? If fucking your customers is the common attitude, do you expect to stay in business very long? The CB issue I can understand....but what about the customers who cancel their account the day it is to expire only to have their cards charged for another month first?

[tony286]

ethics, I guess our main motivation to create a website was fun and to get to be creative not really money.Ive talked more first timers out of doing porn then I can count. lol From my work experience I was always taught without the customer we are nothing and I took that to my own business.

[OMG Jim]

Charles I remember meeting and having breakfast with you, Bugbee and Corvette at the Roosevelt Hotel during the XBIZ '07 show. I was aware of the popularity of your program but honestly did not know that much about you, the person behind it.

After having the pleasure of hearing directly from you on how you approach business I can see why you have enjoyed the success and longevity with your program that you have.

We have just celebrated our six year anniversary in the adult industry and I can say that if we had not put ethics ahead of money then we would not be in the position that we are today. Consistency, credibility and reliability last far longer than that quickbuck any day.

With that said I would love to discuss some new business opportunities with you and see how we may be able to mutually benefit. Contact me anytime you like.

Jim
_

[clickyoucutie]

I think ethics are more important. Because if you screw over enough people, you will lose friends and some of those friends are also business partners. I believe in karma. In my experiences, if you treat someone well, they usually treat you better.

[just a punk]

Ethics .

[tony286]

Originally Posted by mattsbeachhouse

Any chance that customers retaliate by pirating the material to get even? If fucking your customers is the common attitude, do you expect to stay in business very long? The CB issue I can understand....but what about the customers who cancel their account the day it is to expire only to have their cards charged for another month first?

Nope people just like free shit. Photoshop is probably the most pirated software on the planet and they have fucked no one over. The net makes it easy to do this shit because people are hidden.I had a boss that told me locks keep honest people honest.

[mattsbeachhouse]

Originally Posted by clickyoucutie

I think ethics are more important. Because if you screw over enough people, you will lose friends and some of those friends are also business partners. I believe in karma. In my experiences, if you treat someone well, they usually treat you better.

Untrue. Many wealthy people make money unethically. Look at SobeGirl. This guy has a horrible reputation and by your theory, this guy should have run out of customers and friends a long time ago. Yet, he is still making a profit now isnt he?

[d-null]

Originally Posted by cyberxxx

Ethics .

[mattsbeachhouse]

Originally Posted by tony404

Nope people just like free shit. Photoshop is probably the most pirated software on the planet and they have fucked no one over. The net makes it easy to do this shit because people are hidden.I had a boss that told me locks keep honest people honest.

And next to Windows, its the most paid for software in any media/graphic/web industry as well.

[BradM]

Originally Posted by mattsbeachhouse

Any chance that customers retaliate by pirating the material to get even? If fucking your customers is the common attitude, do you expect to stay in business very long? The CB issue I can understand....but what about the customers who cancel their account the day it is to expire only to have their cards charged for another month first?

I deal in hard goods. There is no pirating. There is no membership.

[cykoe6]

It is hard to believe how many people can lie with the straight face around here. Perhaps they are so deluded that they believe themselves?

[fallenmuffin]

Ethics take center stage but it really depends on what you want to call ethical to millions of people we make our living doing something unethical. That would be like us saying crack dealers have no ethics even if they run a solid business.. every one always gets paid.. they host events and have affiliates (er, little drug dealers).

It's all in the marketing.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by cykoe6

It is hard to believe how many people can lie with the straight face around here. Perhaps they are so deluded that they believe themselves?

Name names...and better yet, tell us how you know anything about anybody on here and what they do or don't do? Identify yourself and explain so we can avoid these alleged liars.

[kmanrox]

money talks, bullshit walks. nuff sed

[bushwacker]

Originally Posted by kmanrox

money talks, bullshit walks. nuff sed

Money talks, bullshit runs a marathon. Neno Brown "New Jack City"

[Spunky]

I would say ethics,but that's why I'm not in this full time.I could have easily done unethical shit to manipulate surfers years ago

[MissMina]

Ethics fo sho because I believe in Karma

[RP Fade]

One of the biggest problems that I've witnessed in 10+ years in the biz is that you always have a couple of rotten apples that ruin the bunch. For example, you'll have Company X doing $150+ in hidden bogus cross-sales and doing massive payouts. Then Company Y looks at them and says 'shit, i can't compete so I have to go to that level in order to do so' or 'hmm..thats a great way for me to make more money' and it dominos from there. I personally know of 2-3 programs following that sad, unfortunate route as we speak, much to my dismay...

My biggest complaint with the biz is that we are all in this together. For example, I cringe at those webmasters or programs who simply say they could care less what a particular company does because it does not affect them. That is the biggest fallacy in our biz. What one company does has a huge rippling affect on the entire industry.

Let's take Visa for an example. Visa is Visa, it does not matter how you process with them or what platform/backend/processor you use. If Visa ends up getting pissed and implements something radical like no more auto-rebills (one bank already initiated this for their cardholders in Europe), no more xsales or something more extreme like 'fuck the adult biz' like Amex did, we are ALL fucked, not just that one particular company. Let's face it, the next time Visa gets pissed (like they did when they lowered the cb ratio and started scrubbing sites harder), they're not gonna come in and say 'you company X are the bad guys, you go to the corner but you company Y are running a clean adult business so you get a star'. No, they're gonna come in and systematically carpet bomb the entire industry because frankly, adult dollars are not THAT important to them and they dont have time to police us if we can't police ourselves. But I can hear the pundits already saying 'that'll never happen and if it did, we'll always find another way'. But I tend to think you only get so many warnings and chances..

And for every pissed off, disgruntled and unsatisfied surfer/member out there that's been scammed or ripped off by someone in our biz, that's just one less person in our collective customer pool, which again, affects everyone of us.

And what's the saddest part of all this? You don't need to rip people off, charge $150-$200 in xsales and run scams to make good money in this biz. It's just pure greed..

[SykkBoy]

money, no I mean, ethics, no I mean money...ah fuck it

I'm ethically flexible...
although it would matter on who's definition of ethical is being used...

[Black_Widow]

xxxjay will be kicking your ass!