ATK Galleria/ATKingdom not crediting their affiliate on mad upselling.

[the indigo]

I just joined their main ATK Galleria site to look out, and seen more promo about their other sites (ATK Exotics, Hairy, etc.) then anything else. They are featured ON TOP of the actual content.

Problem, is that the affiliate ID for these are crediting the owners, not the affiliates.

Even their 'updates' have links to Karups galleries and similar other revshare every 2-3 days.

I mean, their member area looks more than a TGP to me.

From an affiliate point of view, I screwed them. It's 50/50 split, not a PPS program! If you can't credit all the upselling of your own sites back to your affiliates, it's pure shaving to me.

If it was 60/40 it would make sense. But this is the kind of revshare program that should not be pushed, IMO.

[jact]

Your agreement with ATK, as with many affiliate programs likely does not include member area upsells, mailer upsells, cancel offer upsells, etc, etc. Why aren't you pissed off at 99.8% of the affiliate programs out there that participate in this behavior? You sent the join, you got paid your commission on the join, why do you feel that's your customer forever beyond that especially on new sales unrelated to your sending that hit?

[the indigo]

You did not read.

First, I did not sign any agreement with ATK. I'm telling people to make sure to visit the paysite they are advertising first, due to their shaddy practice. I'm a paysite owner myself and it kills me to see such things.

Secondo, the hit sent from the affiliate should be credited at 50% of 100%, where possible. Not 50% of 75% like it is done by ATK and many other programs.

Plus, any paysite owner like myself know for a fact that 15-20% of members returns, and all those sales are not credited to the affiliates. The PPS model *can* take into consideration all the upsales, comeback members, etc to pay as high as $40.00 per trial. There is no other way.

But shaddy revshare programs paying 50% of sometimes 60% from their affiliate's traffic means you actually get paid 30% of what you produce.

That's my only point I wanted to share.

1. I run my paysites so I don't care.
2. I visit the revshares before promoting them.

Just don't tell me all revshares programs are 'honest' and 'dont shave' because they are revshare, it's simply not true.

[Pete-KT]

What paysite do you run? id like to see how your stuff is setup

[After Shock Media]

I would love to know easy ways to credit affiliates with all available members upsells.

[Snake Doctor]

I have to agree with OP.

On a revshare program, upsells in the members area that I don't get paid for piss me off, the same as x-sells and other things like that.

If you buy my joins flat out for $40 per or something, then you have the right to do whatever you want after the sale is closed.
With revshare, I'm taking a risk. A risk that the customer will stay and be happy.

Remember, this is a member you would not have, if I hadn't sent them to you, and I could have sent them somewhere else. If we're really partners, then treat me like a partner. If not, then pay me, cash upfront, and then do what you like.

[Snake Doctor]

Originally Posted by jact

Your agreement with ATK, as with many affiliate programs likely does not include member area upsells, mailer upsells, cancel offer upsells, etc, etc. Why aren't you pissed off at 99.8% of the affiliate programs out there that participate in this behavior? You sent the join, you got paid your commission on the join, why do you feel that's your customer forever beyond that especially on new sales unrelated to your sending that hit?

Because it wouldn't be your customer to sell things to had I not sent them to you.

This is a competitive market. Alot of programs out there paying the same percentage of the revenue without all the upsells, OR programs that have upsells but pay out on them, OR programs that pay upfront for the joins.

I can send a revshare signup and only make $1. I'm taking a risk that you're going to take care of that customer and keep them for a long time. A great way to do that is to give them content instead of ads, and maybe not show them your competitor's sites that they might like better.

[FreeHugeMovies]

This is why you always do PPS with membership sites. They upsell like fuck and don't pass on the credit.

[delux_247]

This kind of thinking always bothers me and maybe I'm just off base or misguided because I don't do this for a living.

If you sell a car do you give a portion of that money to the dealer? You wouldn't have the car if it wasn't for them. If you sell shit on Ebay would you give money back to the people who gave or even in some case BOUGHT you the item? If you trade in DVD's does that mean you should be called when the DVD is resold and offered cash or even more DVD's than you were already compensated for?

Once a transaction takes place either by giving a person something or paying them for it that said item or commodity is theirs to do with what they want I think. That includes up selling them. You referred them a customer but it is their customer now.

But maybe that thinking is too black and white. I'm sure there is gray area in there and certain things make since and certain others don't. But in the case of expecting to be paid on up sells and such after the conversion I think that is just expecting too much. I'll be the first to admit that I could be wrong.

[FreeHugeMovies]

Originally Posted by delux_247

This kind of thinking always bothers me and maybe I'm just off base or misguided because I don't do this for a living.

If you sell a car do you give a portion of that money to the dealer? You wouldn't have the car if it wasn't for them. If you sell shit on Ebay would you give money back to the people who gave or even in some case BOUGHT you the item? If you trade in DVD's does that mean you should be called when the DVD is resold and offered cash or even more DVD's than you were already compensated for?

Once a transaction takes place either by giving a person something or paying them for it that said item or commodity is theirs to do with what they want I think. That includes up selling them. You referred them a customer but it is their customer now.

But maybe that thinking is too black and white. I'm sure there is gray area in there and certain things make since and certain others don't. But in the case of expecting to be paid on up sells and such after the conversion I think that is just expecting too much. I'll be the first to admit that I could be wrong.

I agree with you 100% if it's a PPS program. If it's revshare it's stealing.

[After Shock Media]

Originally Posted by Snake Doctor

I have to agree with OP.

On a revshare program, upsells in the members area that I don't get paid for piss me off, the same as x-sells and other things like that.

If you buy my joins flat out for $40 per or something, then you have the right to do whatever you want after the sale is closed.
With revshare, I'm taking a risk. A risk that the customer will stay and be happy.

Remember, this is a member you would not have, if I hadn't sent them to you, and I could have sent them somewhere else. If we're really partners, then treat me like a partner. If not, then pay me, cash upfront, and then do what you like.

I agree with you and also disagree in some ways.
Technically the whole "partners" thing really needs to be ironed out better I think to help fix all of these issues. For instance the affiliate is not being a true partner as they do not cover half of everything aside from what we charge the member, possibly chargebacks, and processing - though that is a hot button topic as well.

It is a lopsided partnership at very least. Gets even more lopsided as the more tools and resources are used by the affiliate. Plus the affiliate really carries no real financial risk unless the sponsor goes under and they loose potential future rebills. (OK they have some risk but again lopsided).

So can anyone answer and explain a simple way to make it so that the affiliate gets his cut of every single members area upsell? Hell lets assume that a paysite has a VOD upsell, a sex store upsell, and 2 related paysites where they did content trades and upsell each other. All different companies.

[Snake Doctor]

Originally Posted by After Shock Media

I agree with you and also disagree in some ways.
Technically the whole "partners" thing really needs to be ironed out better I think to help fix all of these issues. For instance the affiliate is not being a true partner as they do not cover half of everything aside from what we charge the member, possibly chargebacks, and processing - though that is a hot button topic as well.

It is a lopsided partnership at very least. Gets even more lopsided as the more tools and resources are used by the affiliate. Plus the affiliate really carries no real financial risk unless the sponsor goes under and they loose potential future rebills. (OK they have some risk but again lopsided).

So can anyone answer and explain a simple way to make it so that the affiliate gets his cut of every single members area upsell? Hell lets assume that a paysite has a VOD upsell, a sex store upsell, and 2 related paysites where they did content trades and upsell each other. All different companies.

Not so. People always say the program spends this and the program spends that and the affiliate spends nothing.

Bullshit.

The most expensive commodity in this scenario is traffic. That's what affiliates have that affiliate program owners want.
Try buying traffic straight up on a per click or per sale or per impression basis, and odds are it's going to cost you alot more than the 50% of the revenue you're giving to affiliates, PLUS you have to pay out upfront and take the risk that you'll convert. With the affiliate program you only payout as the money comes in.

If you have a revshare program instead of a per click, per sale, or per whatever program, then what you're asking me to do is trust you. You don't have to make a big expenditure upfront, and in exchange I get a piece of the pie long term.

The money made from x-sells, upsells, exit consoles, mailers, etc is all calculated into the payout on a PPS program. If you want my traffic on a revshare basis, then you either need a way for me to share in those other revenue streams, or you don't use them.

[Rochard]

I don't understand what the drama is about.

The deal the affiliate has between any program they send traffic is either a percentage of the sale of a membership, or you get paid a flat fee for any signup you send them. The deal is not "50% of any memberships you send us plus anything else we upsell this customer ever until the end of time".

Programs have done upsells from the members area since the beginning of time, or at least since Al Gore created the Internet.

Once you deliver the customer to join page and they sign up, your done, and your profit potential is done also.

That's the entire affiliate model right there.

[Rochard]

Originally Posted by After Shock Media

I agree with you and also disagree in some ways.
Technically the whole "partners" thing really needs to be ironed out better I think to help fix all of these issues. For instance the affiliate is not being a true partner as they do not cover half of everything aside from what we charge the member, possibly chargebacks, and processing - though that is a hot button topic as well.

It is a lopsided partnership at very least. Gets even more lopsided as the more tools and resources are used by the affiliate. Plus the affiliate really carries no real financial risk unless the sponsor goes under and they loose potential future rebills. (OK they have some risk but again lopsided).

So can anyone answer and explain a simple way to make it so that the affiliate gets his cut of every single members area upsell? Hell lets assume that a paysite has a VOD upsell, a sex store upsell, and 2 related paysites where they did content trades and upsell each other. All different companies.

If an affiliate wants to be a true partner, they can share in the costs of hosting and producing content.

If I send a new client to my landscaper, he gives me $20 off my next bill. He doesn't give me $20 off my bill every month until the end of time. And if the new client I sent him sends him a new client, I don't get a bonus for that either.

At what point in time did an affiliate become a partner? An affiliate is an affiliate, not a partner.

[Snake Doctor]

Originally Posted by Rochard

If an affiliate wants to be a true partner, they can share in the costs of hosting and producing content.

If I send a new client to my landscaper, he gives me $20 off my next bill. He doesn't give me $20 off my bill every month until the end of time. And if the new client I sent him sends him a new client, I don't get a bonus for that either.

At what point in time did an affiliate become a partner? An affiliate is an affiliate, not a partner.

[After Shock Media]

Originally Posted by Snake Doctor

Not so. People always say the program spends this and the program spends that and the affiliate spends nothing.

Bullshit.

The most expensive commodity in this scenario is traffic. That's what affiliates have that affiliate program owners want.
Try buying traffic straight up on a per click or per sale or per impression basis, and odds are it's going to cost you alot more than the 50% of the revenue you're giving to affiliates, PLUS you have to pay out upfront and take the risk that you'll convert. With the affiliate program you only payout as the money comes in.

That is where you are wrong and one of the main reasons that my personal sites are primarily affiliate free and at most invite only. Affiliates were the most expensive element of the whole ordeal. Traffic itself is not that expensive nor that damn hard to get. Actually most affiliates have required the site owner to do almost all of the damn work anyways to collect the traffic, then the affiliate stamps their name on it and gets half.
Content costs have always been a lot more expensive than traffic has ever been. Even hosting expenses have been more expensive than productive traffic has been.

Now you also skipped over the whole issue of asking how to keep track in a simple way, since I was actually interested. Even though it has always been the case that revshare sites did members upsells if they wanted - just no uncredited cross sales, or exits.

[Manowar]

Snake Doctor... what kind of stuff do you promote... or do your own stuff... i know you were involved with NA for a longtime then your own program i think?

would like to run some stuff past you

[Snake Doctor]

If you have a program you can do what you want, but if you want my traffic, then there shouldn't be upsells that I don't get paid for.

Upsells in the members area hurt retention. So do x-sells on the join page.

Maybe as a program owner you make a little more with them than without, but as an affiliate I make less with your program than I would with a program that didn't upsell competing products in the members area.

The people defending the programs in here are talking about how you only get a % of this and not a % of everything....you're forgetting that I send sales where I make $1, sometimes less than $1, with revshare programs. I could have sent that to a PPS program and made $35.
I'm taking a risk with a revshare program and it would be nice if you didn't do things that made you money but hurt my rebills.

[delux_247]

Originally Posted by Snake Doctor

Not so. People always say the program spends this and the program spends that and the affiliate spends nothing.

Bullshit.

The most expensive commodity in this scenario is traffic. That's what affiliates have that affiliate program owners want.
Try buying traffic straight up on a per click or per sale or per impression basis, and odds are it's going to cost you alot more than the 50% of the revenue you're giving to affiliates, PLUS you have to pay out upfront and take the risk that you'll convert. With the affiliate program you only payout as the money comes in.

If you have a revshare program instead of a per click, per sale, or per whatever program, then what you're asking me to do is trust you. You don't have to make a big expenditure upfront, and in exchange I get a piece of the pie long term.

The money made from x-sells, upsells, exit consoles, mailers, etc is all calculated into the payout on a PPS program. If you want my traffic on a revshare basis, then you either need a way for me to share in those other revenue streams, or you don't use them.

I stand corrected, as I did not really consider the underlying difference in PPS and Revshare. I would tend to agree with you that in a revshare scenario revenue is revenue.

Though it may not be agreeable I think they get around that on the outset by informing you of what transactions would be shared and which would not is that correct? Whether it is right or wrong it is worse if they dont disclose it up front I imagine.

If the expressed interest is to share revenue generated imperpetuity then I think that ethically speaking (lol @ ehtics) revenue is revenue regardless of what part of the site or service the transaction transpired.

[Snake Doctor]

Originally Posted by After Shock Media

That is where you are wrong and one of the main reasons that my personal sites are primarily affiliate free and at most invite only. Affiliates were the most expensive element of the whole ordeal. Traffic itself is not that expensive nor that damn hard to get. Actually most affiliates have required the site owner to do almost all of the damn work anyways to collect the traffic, then the affiliate stamps their name on it and gets half.
Content costs have always been a lot more expensive than traffic has ever been. Even hosting expenses have been more expensive than productive traffic has been.

Now you also skipped over the whole issue of asking how to keep track in a simple way, since I was actually interested. Even though it has always been the case that revshare sites did members upsells if they wanted - just no uncredited cross sales, or exits.

That remark about content is totally untrue.
If it costs $2K per week to update a site, then that's what it costs whether it has 100 or 10,000 members. So the cost per member for content can vary greatly, and if you're spending more on content than on traffic, then you're doing it wrong.

Comparing content to traffic is apples and oranges...but ask Nasty Dollars, Bang Bros, Brazzers, people spending millions on content, whether they spend more on content, or paying affiliates. (and paying affiliates is just another way to buy traffic)

As for your question, tracking upsells to an affiliate isn't possible as far as I know, unless you're upselling to something you own.
A good solution would be to up your percentage payout in an amount commensurate with the ads you're running in the members area....to be fair to the affiliates.

[Snake Doctor]

Originally Posted by delux_247

I stand corrected, as I did not really consider the underlying difference in PPS and Revshare. I would tend to agree with you that in a revshare scenario revenue is revenue.

Though it may not be agreeable I think they get around that on the outset by informing you of what transactions would be shared and which would not is that correct? Whether it is right or wrong it is worse if they dont disclose it up front I imagine.

If the expressed interest is to share revenue generated imperpetuity then I think that ethically speaking (lol @ ehtics) revenue is revenue regardless of what part of the site or service the transaction transpired.

Well it's not a matter of right or wrong. It's just a matter of competition.

There are thousands of affiliate programs out there where I can send my traffic. Logic dictates that I would send to the one that makes me the most money, so if you're doing something that will decrease my take, then that's a mark against you.

What's concerning about the issues with upsells in a members area, is you can start promoting a program on a revshare basis when they're squeaky clean. Updating regularly and no ads in the members area.
Then you build up a nice member base with them and get some nice recurring revenue, and then they carpet bomb the members area with ads.

Now you can stop sending traffic, but you're fucked with your rebills, you're not going to make as much as you should have and you've already sent the traffic.

That's why PPS is the preferred model in this business, and you should only do revshare with people you trust.

[Snake Doctor]

Originally Posted by Manowar

Snake Doctor... what kind of stuff do you promote... or do your own stuff... i know you were involved with NA for a longtime then your own program i think?

would like to run some stuff past you

I promote NA. They've been good partners over the years. So have the guys at Score Cash.

I did have a program years ago, I sold it when 2257 came back around though.

No x-sells, no upsells, I would have felt guilty unless I could have given the affiliates who sent me the traffic their piece of that pie, because it wasn't my member, it was our member.
If they cancelled during the trial period, we both lost out. If they stayed 6 months to a year or longer, we both won. The point is, we're supposed to be in it together.

lenny at bigeasynetworks.com is my email, for that stuff you wanted to run past me.

[After Shock Media]

Originally Posted by Snake Doctor

That remark about content is totally untrue.
If it costs $2K per week to update a site, then that's what it costs whether it has 100 or 10,000 members. So the cost per member for content can vary greatly, and if you're spending more on content than on traffic, then you're doing it wrong.

Comparing content to traffic is apples and oranges...but ask Nasty Dollars, Bang Bros, Brazzers, people spending millions on content, whether they spend more on content, or paying affiliates. (and paying affiliates is just another way to buy traffic)

As for your question, tracking upsells to an affiliate isn't possible as far as I know, unless you're upselling to something you own.
A good solution would be to up your percentage payout in an amount commensurate with the ads you're running in the members area....to be fair to the affiliates.

No the remark can and is often very true for most people. Not everyone gets to be nasty dollars, bang bros, brazzers, etc. Many start sites on fairly tight budgets and it will be some time before the costs equal out to a set rate (costing no more for 1000 members etc.). Example is when someone starts a exclusive site with say 20 scenes and weekly updates for the rest of the year preshot. Lets say they are down 52k in content when they open the door. They will not see a profit off that content until they do at least 104k in revshare sales (processing/hosting etc. not included) before they see a penny of profit. This can often take them some time to achieve. Also often why so many small programs are revshare to begin with, when we all know PPS makes the program more money.

I am all for being fair to affiliates. I also do everything with retention in mind and any upsell I do is something that would not harm my rebills nor be competing. I know it is about 20 times easier to keep a customer than get a new one so I am not about to just sell them off super cheap etc.

[StuartD]

http://www.atkcash.com/terms.php

VIII. Compensation AND BENEFITS:

A. Compensation. ATK?s Affiliate program is a 50% / 50% recurring revenue share program, whereby the Affiliate will receive 50% of each new customer?s membership fee. The terms of compensation may be modified from time to time. Any modifications will be posted on the Affiliate Website: www.atkcash.com.

By joining, you agreed to these terms. You are entitled to 50% of the membership fee only, both upon initial join and recurring membership fees.

I'm sorry if there was any confusion.