YouJizz.com is ignoring our copyright infringement emails - GoFuckYourself.com

Dave_Lethal · 06-02-2009, 10:54 AM

Does anybody know how to contact them, I tried emailing [email protected] and recieved no response. Anybody else having problems with these guys?

»Rob Content« · 06-02-2009, 10:55 AM

Are you sending them a DMCA notice?

»Rob Content« · 06-02-2009, 10:57 AM

They are hosted at SWIFTCO.NET

Which is located in the USA, call their abuse department, and forward a rash of DMCA's to the host.

pixovore · 06-02-2009, 10:57 AM

just parking

Dave_Lethal · 06-02-2009, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by »Rob Content«

Are you sending them a DMCA notice?

I just sent them an email stating the URLs that had our content on them, most tube sites have taken our stuff down previously after I did that.

SilentKnight · 06-02-2009, 11:01 AM

If they continue ignoring you - mention the phrase, "...will be seeking monetary compensation for potential loss of livelihood as a result of illegal copyright infringement of intellectual property through our company attorney."

WarChild · 06-02-2009, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilentKnight

If they continue ignoring you - mention the phrase, "...will be seeking monetary compensation for potential loss of livelihood as a result of illegal copyright infringement of intellectual property through our company attorney."

Don't be ridiculous. The most direct and simplest route is to send DMCA. You're not going to get any monetary compensation until you take that step anyway. If they ignore the DMCA, then you can start with this kind of thing.

CaptainHowdy · 06-02-2009, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilentKnight

If they continue ignoring you - mention the phrase, "...will be seeking monetary compensation for potential loss of livelihood as a result of illegal copyright infringement of intellectual property through our company attorney."

Bingo !

Makingcoin · 06-02-2009, 11:22 AM

They do respond to those emails, how long ago did you send them?

troncarver · 06-02-2009, 11:29 AM

just sent you an IM

CamTraffic · 06-02-2009, 11:29 AM

good luck with that!

marketsmart · 06-02-2009, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave_Lethal

Does anybody know how to contact them, I tried emailing [email protected] and recieved no response. Anybody else having problems with these guys?

Hello Dave,

As soon as I get through banging out credit cards and uploading more stolen content, I will address your email.

Thanks for your understanding.

Love,

Marketsmart

»Rob Content« · 06-02-2009, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by »Rob Content«

They are hosted at SWIFTCO.NET

Which is located in the USA, call their abuse department, and forward a rash of DMCA's to the host.

It's pretty simple

Dave_Lethal · 06-02-2009, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by »Rob Content«

It's pretty simple

I emailed [email protected] last week, just got off the phone with them and email [email protected]

Thanks

»Rob Content« · 06-02-2009, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave_Lethal

I emailed [email protected] last week, just got off the phone with them and email [email protected]

Thanks

Just send a proper DMCA, it takes about 20 seconds to fill one out

fris · 06-02-2009, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makingcoin

They do respond to those emails, how long ago did you send them?

do you run it with igor? or is it just him, havent been able to reach him for a while now.

iTouch! · 06-02-2009, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave_Lethal

I emailed [email protected] last week, just got off the phone with them and email [email protected]

Thanks

they make .met 's now?

Dave_Lethal · 06-02-2009, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elitechris

they make .met 's now?

that was obviously a typo, thanks for pointing it out, though

SilentKnight · 06-02-2009, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarChild

Don't be ridiculous. The most direct and simplest route is to send DMCA. You're not going to get any monetary compensation until you take that step anyway. If they ignore the DMCA, then you can start with this kind of thing.

Sending a DMCA first was implied - hence the "if they keep ignoring you" in my post.

However, we've bypassed sending DMCA notices several times in the past and simply went with what I wrote above. On two occasions it actually prompted the infringers to contact us to settle monetarily.

You can continue labeling it "ridiculous".

We'll continue doing what works.

pornguy · 06-02-2009, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilentKnight

Sending a DMCA first was implied - hence the "if they keep ignoring you" in my post.

However, we've bypassed sending DMCA notices several times in the past and simply went with what I wrote above. On two occasions it actually prompted the infringers to contact us to settle monetarily.

You can continue labeling it "ridiculous".

We'll continue doing what works.

Stop making sense damn you. Its not supposed to happen around here.

SilentKnight · 06-02-2009, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pornguy

Stop making sense damn you. Its not supposed to happen around here.

The curse I must bear.

V_RocKs · 06-02-2009, 01:54 PM

Good luck

TheSenator · 06-02-2009, 01:56 PM

You have to send it through mail.

Certify mailing is the best option.

zEn84 · 06-02-2009, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fris

do you run it with igor? or is it just him, havent been able to reach him for a while now.

Too busy riding around in his new lambo

gideongallery · 06-02-2009, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilentKnight

Sending a DMCA first was implied - hence the "if they keep ignoring you" in my post.

However, we've bypassed sending DMCA notices several times in the past and simply went with what I wrote above. On two occasions it actually prompted the infringers to contact us to settle monetarily.

You can continue labeling it "ridiculous".

We'll continue doing what works.

please list the tube sites run by morons who don't know their rights under the law.

Major Tom Thanks Duke · 06-02-2009, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave_Lethal

Does anybody know how to contact them, I tried emailing [email protected] and recieved no response. Anybody else having problems with these guys?

send to the provider who provides bw to swiftco and the owner of the ip block.
send a cert letter. Watch how fast it comes down. The suits at level 3 (or who ever provides their BW, i didnt tracert) dosent want the least bit of headaches. I litterally had sites shut down for hours at a time.

complaining to the site is yelling at the child, the host the mother, the provider, well, remember your mom used to say "wait till your father comes home from work?" thats more the type of attitude you get dealing with the provider.
Duke

Spudstr · 06-02-2009, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DukeSkywalker

send to the provider who provides bw to swiftco and the owner of the ip block.
send a cert letter. Watch how fast it comes down. The suits at level 3 (or who ever provides their BW, i didnt tracert) dosent want the least bit of headaches. I litterally had sites shut down for hours at a time.

complaining to the site is yelling at the child, the host the mother, the provider, well, remember your mom used to say "wait till your father comes home from work?" thats more the type of attitude you get dealing with the provider.
Duke

if swift is allocated the IPs from ARIN, level3 wont do anything about it because they cannot prove that the return data is transfered over their circuit. They might send a AUP violation etc but it really can't be held unless the content is on level3's ip space.

Best method is certified letter to the host. Might take a little bit longer but that is the best way to get it done.

famous · 06-02-2009, 06:48 PM

well the bad thing is until someone sues someone the shit will contine. Sending a DMCA is like the UN sending North Korea a letter lol pointless.

Ann-Angelcom · 06-02-2009, 07:12 PM

same problem here with pornbb.org. On the site they state that they tend to all letters of copyright infringement, and that any infringing material will be removed:
"pornBB ? DMCA Policy

pornBB is in compliance with 17 U.S.C. § 512 and the Digital Millennium Copyright Act ("DMCA"). It is our policy to respond to any infringement notices and take appropriate actions under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act ("DMCA") and other applicable intellectual property laws.

If your copyrighted material has been posted on pornBB or if hyperlinks to your copyrighted material are returned through our search engine and you want this material removed, you must provide a written communication that details the information listed in the following section. Please be aware that you will be liable for damages (including costs and attorneys' fees) if you misrepresent information listed on our site that is infringing on your copyrights. We suggest that you first contact an attorney for legal assistance on this matter.

The following elements must be included in your copyright infringement claim:
Provide evidence of the authorized person to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed.
Provide sufficient contact information so that we may contact you. You must also include a valid email address.
You must identify in sufficient detail the copyrighted work claimed to have been infringed and including at least one search term under which the material appears in pornBB search results.
A statement that the complaining party has a good faith belief that use of the material in the manner complained of is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law.
A statement that the information in the notification is accurate, and under penalty of perjury, that the complaining party is authorized to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed.
Must be signed by the authorized person to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly being infringed.

Send the infringement notice via email to [email protected]

Please allow up to a week for an email response. Note that emailing your complaint to other parties such as our Internet Service Provider will not expedite your request and may result in a delayed response due to the complaint not being filed properly."

We have sent several letters in the past to remove threads containing our material. There has never been a reply back.

So the question is....who is the BW provider for pornbb.org?

We should have someone make a list of all the sites out there that steal stuff along with information about who their hosts are as well as BW providers like you guys said. It's not always easy to get this info. This kind of list would be well worth the money.

Take rapidshare for example. They constantly take stuff down when you notify them, which is great. They really work with you. However 10 minutes after the content is posted again by the same guy. It would be great to be able to contact the BW providers in cases like this, where the company doesn't have to go beyond its "rights" to help you out as far as banning users who abuse their own policies.

Dave_Lethal · 06-04-2009, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ann-Angelcom

same problem here with pornbb.org. On the site they state that they tend to all letters of copyright infringement, and that any infringing material will be removed:
"pornBB ? DMCA Policy

pornBB is in compliance with 17 U.S.C. § 512 and the Digital Millennium Copyright Act ("DMCA"). It is our policy to respond to any infringement notices and take appropriate actions under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act ("DMCA") and other applicable intellectual property laws.

If your copyrighted material has been posted on pornBB or if hyperlinks to your copyrighted material are returned through our search engine and you want this material removed, you must provide a written communication that details the information listed in the following section. Please be aware that you will be liable for damages (including costs and attorneys' fees) if you misrepresent information listed on our site that is infringing on your copyrights. We suggest that you first contact an attorney for legal assistance on this matter.

The following elements must be included in your copyright infringement claim:
Provide evidence of the authorized person to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed.
Provide sufficient contact information so that we may contact you. You must also include a valid email address.
You must identify in sufficient detail the copyrighted work claimed to have been infringed and including at least one search term under which the material appears in pornBB search results.
A statement that the complaining party has a good faith belief that use of the material in the manner complained of is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law.
A statement that the information in the notification is accurate, and under penalty of perjury, that the complaining party is authorized to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed.
Must be signed by the authorized person to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly being infringed.

Send the infringement notice via email to [email protected]

Please allow up to a week for an email response. Note that emailing your complaint to other parties such as our Internet Service Provider will not expedite your request and may result in a delayed response due to the complaint not being filed properly."

We have sent several letters in the past to remove threads containing our material. There has never been a reply back.

So the question is....who is the BW provider for pornbb.org?

We should have someone make a list of all the sites out there that steal stuff along with information about who their hosts are as well as BW providers like you guys said. It's not always easy to get this info. This kind of list would be well worth the money.

Take rapidshare for example. They constantly take stuff down when you notify them, which is great. They really work with you. However 10 minutes after the content is posted again by the same guy. It would be great to be able to contact the BW providers in cases like this, where the company doesn't have to go beyond its "rights" to help you out as far as banning users who abuse their own policies.

that would be great

DWB · 06-04-2009, 01:56 PM

SWIFTCO.net... never had a problem with them. I use them for one of my projects. Send a proper DMCA, I'm sure they will take care of it.

notime · 06-04-2009, 01:57 PM

Try www.removeyourcontent.com or fall back to old school ways that people always understand.

xNetworx · 06-04-2009, 03:12 PM

youjizz.com looks like an effective tube site. crooks tho

Agent 488 · 06-04-2009, 03:16 PM

had some success with this method.

WarChild · 06-04-2009, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilentKnight

Sending a DMCA first was implied - hence the "if they keep ignoring you" in my post.

However, we've bypassed sending DMCA notices several times in the past and simply went with what I wrote above. On two occasions it actually prompted the infringers to contact us to settle monetarily.

You can continue labeling it "ridiculous".

We'll continue doing what works.

Let me tell you that as somebody who knows the owner of that site, you aren't going to scare anyone there in to cantacting you to settle monetarily with some legal threats.

Agent 488 · 06-04-2009, 03:23 PM

just send them a proper dmca ...?

Sin_Vraal · 06-04-2009, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave_Lethal

I emailed [email protected] last week, just got off the phone with them and email [email protected]

Thanks

Dave,

Please icq / phone / email me if you are having trouble still. I'll take a look at the ticket and see whats going on, and take care of the matter for you.

We follow up on all DCMA notices as fast as humanly possible, icq is in the sig.

-Henry
Swift Communications
President

Far-L · 06-05-2009, 09:44 AM

I just sent them a polite email and our stuff was down in minutes.

DWB · 06-05-2009, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sin_Vraal

Dave,

Please icq / phone / email me if you are having trouble still. I'll take a look at the ticket and see whats going on, and take care of the matter for you.

We follow up on all DCMA notices as fast as humanly possible, icq is in the sig.

-Henry
Swift Communications
President

Henry is good people.

fris · 06-05-2009, 10:31 AM

pocketkangaroo · 06-05-2009, 10:39 AM

DMCA site owner, host, and Google if the page is indexed. I've seen some sites get so many complaints that Google simply de-indexes them.

troncarver · 06-05-2009, 12:17 PM

henry hit me up when you get some time

Snake Doctor · 06-05-2009, 02:04 PM

FYI folks.

If you just send an email with urls and a note saying "that's mine take it down" blah blah, they don't have to do shit.

You have to send a properly formatted DMCA notice. Certain steps must be followed, otherwise, they can and will ignore you. That goes for site owners, hosts, upstream providers, etc.
People don't take content down every time they get an email from someone who says "take that down". There's a process, use it. :2cents

Mikaxxx · 06-07-2009, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sin_Vraal

We follow up on all DCMA notices as fast as humanly

Yeah, you just "follow up", cos the only thing you care is how to get more clients who need hundreds of Gigabits (and tube-sites are perfect for that). You don't care that one of your client's tube has hundreds of stolen videos, and after he removes 1 movie because of DMCA he uploads dozens of other whose owners don't have much time to browse hundreds of tube-sites and send DMCA.

Webmaster Army · 06-07-2009, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikaxxx

Yeah, you just "follow up", cos the only thing you care is how to get more clients who need hundreds of Gigabits (and tube-sites are perfect for that). You don't care that one of your client's tube has hundreds of stolen videos, and after he removes 1 movie because of DMCA he uploads dozens of other whose owners don't have much time to browse hundreds of tube-sites and send DMCA.

They should not be in the business of policing your content. There is a process, use it.

JFK · 06-07-2009, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Far-L

I just sent them a polite email and our stuff was down in minutes.

sounds like a responsible way to do business

06-02-2009, 10:54 AM	#1
Dave_Lethal Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Chatsworth, CA Posts: 337	YouJizz.com is ignoring our copyright infringement emails Does anybody know how to contact them, I tried emailing [email protected] and recieved no response. Anybody else having problems with these guys?

06-02-2009, 10:55 AM	#2
»Rob Content« Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,348	Are you sending them a DMCA notice? __________________ 80% Revshare or 30$ PPS on $1 trials: 200 Niches = Vidz.com Galleries / FLVs / Embeds 3 & 5mins FLVs \| RSS & Tube Feeds \| Matching Thumbs \| FLV Browser & Exporter \| No Prechecked Xsales >> Mobile Redirection Script: mobile.vidz.com also paying 80% net Lifetime << ICQ: 198-394-557 ICQ - 436 795 438 E-mail rob /@/ cool-content dotcom

06-02-2009, 10:57 AM	#3
»Rob Content« Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,348	They are hosted at SWIFTCO.NET Which is located in the USA, call their abuse department, and forward a rash of DMCA's to the host. __________________ 80% Revshare or 30$ PPS on $1 trials: 200 Niches = Vidz.com Galleries / FLVs / Embeds 3 & 5mins FLVs \| RSS & Tube Feeds \| Matching Thumbs \| FLV Browser & Exporter \| No Prechecked Xsales >> Mobile Redirection Script: mobile.vidz.com also paying 80% net Lifetime << ICQ: 198-394-557 ICQ - 436 795 438 E-mail rob /@/ cool-content dotcom

06-02-2009, 10:57 AM	#4
pixovore Confirmed User Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 1,128	just parking __________________ 80% Revshare or 30$ PPS on $1 trials: 200 Niches = Vidz.com Galleries / FLVs / Embeds 3 & 5mins FLVs \| RSS & Tube Feeds \| Matching Thumbs \| FLV Browser & Exporter \| No Prechecked Xsales >> Mobile Redirection Script: mobile.vidz.com also paying 80% net Lifetime << ICQ: 198-394-557

06-02-2009, 11:22 AM	#9
Makingcoin Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Ditch Posts: 8,919	They do respond to those emails, how long ago did you send them? __________________ www.MAKINGCOIN.com icq. 166-662-831 "Start making large coin!" Daddy I Get Paid To Be A Whore - Coming Soon

06-02-2009, 11:01 AM	#6
SilentKnight Megan Fox's fluffer Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: shooting pool in Elysium Posts: 24,818	If they continue ignoring you - mention the phrase, "...will be seeking monetary compensation for potential loss of livelihood as a result of illegal copyright infringement of intellectual property through our company attorney."

06-02-2009, 11:29 AM	#10
troncarver Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,584	just sent you an IM __________________ BADOINK.COM skype: troncarver

06-02-2009, 11:29 AM	#11
CamTraffic Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Paris - Miami Posts: 6,529	good luck with that! __________________ I am always buying traffic and white labels. Hit me up. Email me HERE!

06-02-2009, 01:54 PM	#22
V_RocKs Damn Right I Kiss Ass! Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Cowtown, USA Posts: 32,368	Good luck

06-02-2009, 01:56 PM	#23
TheSenator Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 13,323	You have to send it through mail. Certify mailing is the best option. __________________ ISeekGirls.com since 2005

06-02-2009, 06:48 PM	#28
famous Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 675	well the bad thing is until someone sues someone the shit will contine. Sending a DMCA is like the UN sending North Korea a letter lol pointless.

06-02-2009, 07:12 PM	#29
Ann-Angelcom Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: new york Posts: 500	same problem here with pornbb.org. On the site they state that they tend to all letters of copyright infringement, and that any infringing material will be removed: "pornBB ? DMCA Policy pornBB is in compliance with 17 U.S.C. § 512 and the Digital Millennium Copyright Act ("DMCA"). It is our policy to respond to any infringement notices and take appropriate actions under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act ("DMCA") and other applicable intellectual property laws. If your copyrighted material has been posted on pornBB or if hyperlinks to your copyrighted material are returned through our search engine and you want this material removed, you must provide a written communication that details the information listed in the following section. Please be aware that you will be liable for damages (including costs and attorneys' fees) if you misrepresent information listed on our site that is infringing on your copyrights. We suggest that you first contact an attorney for legal assistance on this matter. The following elements must be included in your copyright infringement claim: Provide evidence of the authorized person to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed. Provide sufficient contact information so that we may contact you. You must also include a valid email address. You must identify in sufficient detail the copyrighted work claimed to have been infringed and including at least one search term under which the material appears in pornBB search results. A statement that the complaining party has a good faith belief that use of the material in the manner complained of is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law. A statement that the information in the notification is accurate, and under penalty of perjury, that the complaining party is authorized to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed. Must be signed by the authorized person to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly being infringed. Send the infringement notice via email to [email protected] Please allow up to a week for an email response. Note that emailing your complaint to other parties such as our Internet Service Provider will not expedite your request and may result in a delayed response due to the complaint not being filed properly." We have sent several letters in the past to remove threads containing our material. There has never been a reply back. So the question is....who is the BW provider for pornbb.org? We should have someone make a list of all the sites out there that steal stuff along with information about who their hosts are as well as BW providers like you guys said. It's not always easy to get this info. This kind of list would be well worth the money. Take rapidshare for example. They constantly take stuff down when you notify them, which is great. They really work with you. However 10 minutes after the content is posted again by the same guy. It would be great to be able to contact the BW providers in cases like this, where the company doesn't have to go beyond its "rights" to help you out as far as banning users who abuse their own policies. __________________ Digitalangeldollars.com 10% on all referrals!! NOW PAYING 75% OF ALL SALES!!!

06-04-2009, 01:56 PM	#31
DWB Giggity Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: S.E. Asia Posts: 31,779	SWIFTCO.net... never had a problem with them. I use them for one of my projects. Send a proper DMCA, I'm sure they will take care of it.

06-04-2009, 01:57 PM	#32
notime Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: cyberspace Posts: 8,012	Try www.removeyourcontent.com or fall back to old school ways that people always understand.

06-04-2009, 03:12 PM	#33
xNetworx So Fucking What Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Whore Island Posts: 14,445	youjizz.com looks like an effective tube site. crooks tho

06-04-2009, 03:16 PM	#34
Agent 488 Registered User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 22,511	had some success with this method.

06-04-2009, 03:23 PM	#36
Agent 488 Registered User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 22,511	just send them a proper dmca ...?

06-05-2009, 09:44 AM	#38
Far-L Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 6,075	I just sent them a polite email and our stuff was down in minutes. __________________ HomegrownCash.com, the affiliate program of Homegrown Video - The Largest Collection of Amateur XXX - Est. 1982. Contact - Email: farrell AT homegrownvideo D com Skype: hgfarl Newsweek Magazine - "Homegrown Video, the longest running series in the history of porn."

06-05-2009, 10:31 AM	#40
fris Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 54,946	__________________ Since 1999: 69 Adult Industry awards for Best Hosting Company and professional excellence. WP Stuff

06-05-2009, 10:39 AM	#41
pocketkangaroo Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 8,452	DMCA site owner, host, and Google if the page is indexed. I've seen some sites get so many complaints that Google simply de-indexes them.

06-05-2009, 12:17 PM	#42
troncarver Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,584	henry hit me up when you get some time __________________ BADOINK.COM skype: troncarver

06-05-2009, 02:04 PM	#43
Snake Doctor I'm Lenny2 Bitch Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: On top of my soapbox Posts: 13,449	FYI folks. If you just send an email with urls and a note saying "that's mine take it down" blah blah, they don't have to do shit. You have to send a properly formatted DMCA notice. Certain steps must be followed, otherwise, they can and will ignore you. That goes for site owners, hosts, upstream providers, etc. People don't take content down every time they get an email from someone who says "take that down". There's a process, use it. :2cents __________________ sig too big