Originally Posted by Agent 488

why is the doc always wrong. like some malfunctioning bot.

Originally Posted by Atticus

No its not a limited trial. You obviously dont have NetFlix or have ever taken advantage of their trial.

You sign up for the 1 DVD a month (and unlimited streams) $8.99 plan. You get one free month. If you like the service you can stay a member and you will be charged $8.99 per month and you will receive THE EXACT SAME THING AS THE TRIAL. If during your full membership you want to upgrade to additional DVD's per month then you can do so.

This is an honest trial. Telling the customer the "trial" is $1 but not telling them the content is extremely limited and then auto rebilling for $40 after 24 hours if they want full access is not.

Whatever happend to offering a service that people actually want to continue their membership? All everyone in this thread is discussing is not allowing full trials because the user will download everything and then cancel. Shouldnt the real concern be that the site in question isnt offering any new content that makes the user want to continue their membership?

Originally Posted by TheDoc

I had to click to the terms to see it.. and again, even if they didn't say it was one in one out, it wouldn't be fraud.

Originally Posted by troncarver

isnt this illegal

Originally Posted by TheDoc

Sweet....don't you guys have trial upgrades though? Cause a 50/60 natural would put you in the top 1% of any product in the world.

Originally Posted by gideongallery

what the fuck are you talking about


http://www.netflix.com/

the bottom picture on the page is actually called

"nm_hiw_iw_dvd_oneout.jpg"

and it says

plus DVD by mail (1 out at a time)

if your selling one thing and delivering another that is fraud.

and it is most certainly dishonest.

Originally Posted by Ralph - GetScoreCash

Depends on the biller, you know how NATS works with trial/upgrades process. If I understood you correctly, I was referring to 50-60% (depending on the site) of those who took a trial converted to full (either by user upgrading manually or not cancelling).

We do mention in our join page (above the JOIN NOW button) that the trial rebills at $29.99 (standard price) after 3 days.

Originally Posted by gideongallery

what the fuck are you talking about


http://www.netflix.com/

the bottom picture on the page is actually called

"nm_hiw_iw_dvd_oneout.jpg"

and it says

plus DVD by mail (1 out at a time)

if your selling one thing and delivering another that is fraud.

and it is most certainly dishonest.

Originally Posted by TheDoc

Oh I was meaning more... natural conversions, no upgrades of any kind. Just letting people naturally rebill without doing anything.

Originally Posted by Atticus

He has no idea what he is talking about. He makes up a sites trial offer to suit his argument and when called out on it moves on to the next topic.

It's pretty simple...

Legitimate trial (NetFlix): 1 month free to test out the service. You decide to stay a member you get exactly what the trial gave you. Then you have options to upgrade and pay more.

Not legitimate trial (Brazzers and according to this thread a ton of other porn sites): 1-3 day limited trial, which they dont tell you, and the real terms are buried in the terms of service (maybe). Then only if you upgrade to the full price do you actually get full access which was promised on the tour.

Originally Posted by Ralph - GetScoreCash

Why give the chance to cancel before the 3 days are up via a natural conversion? If they want to upgrade immediately, let them do so

Originally Posted by TheDoc

Exactly.. You guys do it in an honest way.

Knocking trial upgrades because this is how brazzers does it, is silly though (not saying you were) It's just another way to do it, only reason people are hating is because it's brazzers.

Originally Posted by Karupted Charles

No the reason people are hating as you put (I hate that term) it is because they do not disclose even in a hidden TOS that you do not get full access when you join the 2 day trial. Then when a customer does have an issue they threaten them with and industry wide blacklist. This type of tactic only pushes customers away from joining legitimate sites like scores who does it right, in the future.

Originally Posted by TheDoc

Exactly.. You guys do it in an honest way.

Knocking trial upgrades because this is how brazzers does it, is silly though (not saying you were) It's just another way to do it, only reason people are hating is because it's brazzers.

Originally Posted by Ralph - GetScoreCash

We do go a step further and contact customers who have not logged in. It has helped us prevent fraud in the past and catch carders and such.

Originally Posted by TheDoc

Nice... to bad that promo text has nothing to do with the trial offer...

http://www.netflix.com/FreeTrialInfo

As I said, I had to click to the terms... not that I care, but good god.

Originally Posted by mpahlca

Brazzers should sue the thread starter no banning, no discussion I would sue.

The Doc and Kristin you guys can point out the truth of this over and over your numbers are dead on, and you just gave out great industry info that should help anyone with trials who isn't making as much as they could.

At Twistys we currently give full access full trial but will we for ever? I doubt it. I prefer the limited trial and it's effect on revenue.

Originally Posted by TheDoc

I don't think not having it on your terms or clearly spelled is an issue.. fraud wise, but it doesn't mean I do it that way.

Even when you add honest upgrades, some people bitch... it's not like when you get aggressive the support complaints rock through the doors. You get like 1 or 2 more, out of 100's of sales.

The scale of averages kicks in.. not everyone thinks they got ripped off and some think they got ripped off even when they got exactly what the tour said.

Originally Posted by Atticus

He has no idea what he is talking about. He makes up a sites trial offer to suit his argument and when called out on it moves on to the next topic.

It's pretty simple...

Legitimate trial (NetFlix): 1 month free to test out the service. You decide to stay a member you get exactly what the trial gave you. Then you have options to upgrade and pay more.

Not legitimate trial (Brazzers and according to this thread a ton of other porn sites): 1-3 day limited trial, which they dont tell you, and the real terms are buried in the terms of service (maybe). Then only if you upgrade to the full price do you actually get full access which was promised on the tour.

Originally Posted by gideongallery

both the trial offer and the full membership offer the same 1 out per day limit

so that statement is total bullshit.


show me one thing that is in the main offer that is taken out of the trial and you would have a point.

but until you do you just trying to justify selling them one thing and delivering another.

Originally Posted by TheDoc

Even if you can only get 1 or 10, even if it's the most fair offer in the damn world. It makes no difference, nothing you have said, makes a difference.

You can run a trial offer any way you want - that's was the actual point being made.

Originally Posted by gideongallery

did you not read my above post



your trying to justify selling people one thing and delivering based on the very reason there should be congruity between the offer and the actual agreement (because the definition of a trial is fluid)

it like when you deliberately ignored the 3rd definition of a monopoly to make your claim that you could only be a monopoly if you abused the market.

Originally Posted by signupdamnit

As much as this isn't uncommon these days I think things like this make it all the more likely for the government and the banks to come down on the industry. I don't think anyone here wants that.

I've always wondered why more people don't make their trials different than the standard model. Here's an example. Give the trial member full access to the members area but tell them they can download or access no more than 5-20 (pick a number) videos of their choice and make this very clear on the join page. Once they go over the limit present the upsell to the full membership. They would have access to any video in theory (so no issues with movies being on the tour but not in the trial member area) but they are limited on how many they can access with their trial membership. Main disadvantage which I see would be some added complexity in the required scripting and databases (you need to keep track of access to the videos for trial members only). This approach might even increase revenues over the current model if done correctly. It certainly seems less shady as well.

Originally Posted by TheDoc

Yep, I read it, paysites sell trial access to content, then they sell monthly access - they're naturally different. Your post is simply your twisted view, much like this current post is one lame twisted view of an argument you made up in your head.

Originally Posted by gideongallery

you mean like claiming that selling one thing delivering something completely different and not telling the person about the short fall until after they joined and are complaining about the short fall.

Originally Posted by VirtualAdultAgent

So I ran a test today to see how bad companies like brazzers can be. Lets put aside the tube crap for a minute and just look at billing practices.

Join link:

http://enter.brazzers.com/signup/sig...1&type=default

Notice there is no mention that the trial is any different then the full membership.

Leads you to this page:

https://secure.brazzers.com/signup/g...teway=directnb

Notice there is no mention that the trial is any different then the full membership. There is also no link to any TOS.

Once you join you will find you can not stream or watch any movies. It basically is an expanded tour with no content. I contacted the live customer support and what do I get told?


Bechara: alright sir please contact tech support so they can lead you with the 4 videos
Bechara: because these 4 videos are under the black screen
Bechara: that is on the video page
Bechara: and its called a trial so you have limited access


Trial is a trial period unless otherwise stated not access to limited content. I was unable to actually find what 4 movies that I get for the trial but that is not as important.


charles: i dont want 4 videos i want access to the site as it was not clearly laid out please credit or i will Chargeback
Bechara: if you wish to upgrade your account for a better deal
Bechara: I can do that for you
Bechara: it is mentioned on the site
charles: link to it please
charles: as I am writing an article on shady biling practices
charles: and spent alot of time looking first
Bechara: it is mentioned ont he second page of the sign up
Bechara: you will need to resign up and read it
charles: i have a screen shot of that page
charles: and it is not listed there
charles: it lists the rebill
charles: but nothing about limited access
echara: it is and that is why it offers you the upgrade
charles: are you refusing to issue the credit?
Bechara: Under the therms and conditions of the site, I cannot refund this charge.Your purchase is protected, meaning we can not remove the access you have paid for. Therefore we cannot, remove the charge.


So when a customer finds out he has been scammed they will not even issue a credit. After further debate and me telling them it was for an article and that I would be more then happy to chargeback the transaction a credit was issued. However this was only after the standard you will never be able to join another porn site again cause we will blacklist you.


Is this what the world has come to really. Can we not create a legitimate product with clear explanations of what is inside without having to scam customers. It does not shock me these guys would pull shit like this after the involvement they have with tubes. I know many of you wont care and will still see the advantage in promoting them. However we have to ask with tactics like this is the fast $ today worth the long term damage done to our customers.

Originally Posted by dev777

That's really not all that bad compared to what else is out there. I've had much much worse experiences.

Originally Posted by candyflip

I cancelled my Netflix account the other day and they rebilled me today.

It happens everywhere.

Originally Posted by TheDoc

I didn't claim that, you did...

I'm sure trials can see everything with most paysites, they just can't access them all. They purchased a trial, that's what they got... They can test the features out, make sure they have what they said they do, make sure videos work, features work, login works, etc.. some give more than others, then the member upgrades for everything.

Whatever your view is, at the end of the day members don't agree with you, the numbers simply don't support your view. It's very simple logic.

Originally Posted by TheDoc

It doesn't have to be in the terms at all, it still isn't fraud...

Originally Posted by TheDoc

And... Gideon, are you questioning our Industry our some peoples Business ethics when you basically think it's okay that paysites get pirated, that fair use is some how fair to paysites, that because paysites aren't doing some fake magic voodoo that nobody can find on torrents, that they are all losing out, its some how the paysites fault?

Please.... questioning what or how we do things. You need to stick a sock in it.

Originally Posted by gideongallery

i said while talking about a tour that sold the right to download but had the limited trial buried in the TOS

you claimed

so if you don't tell them about the limit on the tour, and you don't tell them in the terms at all how exactly would the customer know what definition of "trial" they are agreeing to when they join.

that exactly what brazzers did in this case and you justified it with every arguement you made about how it was legitimate.

Originally Posted by gideongallery

wow for someone who keeps complaining about me making up statements about what you said you really believe saying "it okay that paysites get pirated" is a legitimate representation of my statements.

especially when your trying to justify lying on your tour because of piracy

Originally Posted by gideongallery

providing a limited trial and telling people about the tour would protect you from piracy just as much as providing a limited trial and not telling them on the tour.

In terms of "protecting" your content there is no difference.

So bring that issue up is just a red hering to try and justify being a lying scumbag.

IF you were right and the customer didn't care/expected the limits

then telling them the truth on the tour would adversely effect your sales one bit.

so why do all the porn sites not do it the same way as netflix and explictly spell out the limits right on the tour.

Originally Posted by TheDoc

And no, I think it's pathetic you spew moral values here when you basically support our Industry being ripped off.

Originally Posted by Roald

this has been an industry standard for the last 8 years I would say ;)))

Originally Posted by will76

Last I checked " TRIAL" memberships didn't mean limited access, but limited amount of time. Like a 3 day trail.... meaning you pay for 3 days vs 30. Since when did the meaning of trail membership change to mean you only get limited access? And if it does mean that why is it not stated??

Originally Posted by gideongallery

that rich you claim to understand statisitical analysis but you use statistics to deliberately create a logical false arguement.

to misrepresent a scumbag slimeball cheat as some how legitimate.

Originally Posted by gideongallery

your numbers were 1/200 charged back (.5%)

and you used that to prove that most people accept your definition of a trial.

how many people didn't accept the definition of a trial, felt ripped off but decided it a buck fuck it it not worth filling out all the paper work to get that money back.

all of those people don't really accept your definition of a trial but you "count" them as if you do.

Originally Posted by gideongallery

the only way you could actually know if people really accepted your definition of "trial" is to split test them one telling them the conditions and another not telling them. If the definition in their minds was exactly the same there would be no difference between the two.

you know that if you put a phrase like "100% money back guarrentee" you increase sales not decrease them

since you made the bogus justification

Originally Posted by gideongallery

it means when you actually tested it you lost sales.

so your numbers actually prove the opposite and your just misrepresenting them to make your bogus claim.

Originally Posted by TheDoc

Do you always write stupid like this?


I had a .5% before and a .5% after - so the answer is zero!