Market took another deep ass fucking today

[Amputate Your Head]

and "FEAR!" is the word of the day. Dow: -376.36

Stocks got pummeled Thursday, with the Dow, Nasdaq and S&P 500 losing enough to fall into "correction territory" - marked by a drop of more than 10% off the rally highs.

[The Demon]

those triple leveraged options are starting to pay off.

[Semi-Retired-Dave]

Yeah, not a good day today in the Stock Market, or this week.
This isn't looking good. Obama should get up and lie about something positive for a change. That always helps a bit.

[Semi-Retired-Dave]

Sorry, duplicate post.

[The Demon]

Originally Posted by CyberAge-Dave

Yeah, not a good day today in the Stock Market, or this week.
This isn't looking good. Obama should get up and lie about something positive for a change. That always helps a bit.

That's the only reason the Market was up, we should have had a crash months ago. BErnanke and Obama can't twist the European debacle though.

[Marcus Aurelius]

something big is about to happen

[notime]

Originally Posted by MDCQ

something big is about to happen

Either that, or it will be corrected to a point where it is set back to a point worth to begin with without all the smoke and mirrors.

[Amputate Your Head]

Originally Posted by notime

Either that, or it will be corrected to a point where it is set back to a point worth to begin with without all the smoke and mirrors.

While a few of us no doubt see it that way, I think most would see a correction like that as nothing less than 'financial apocalypse'.

[The Demon]

Our financial collapse is inevitable. Obama and Bernanke just postpooned it and in turn, made the inevitable collapse even worse.

[L-Pink]

Originally Posted by Amputate Your Head

While a few of us no doubt see it that way, I think most would see a correction like that as nothing less than 'financial apocalypse'.

And with ZERO incentive to save cash where do people put their money? Real estate? lol


.

[notime]

Originally Posted by Amputate Your Head

While a few of us no doubt see it that way, I think most would see a correction like that as nothing less than 'financial apocalypse'.

A friend of mine who sold his company to an other company noted on the stock exchange 8 years ago, he frequently visits my office just to chat, have coffee, talk about life, problems with kids/wife and do gossip and all. He once said this to me, and I recall it perfectly: "If you have a company doing 100M per year making 1M profit and you go public IPO, how can a company be worth a billion a day later, since they still doing the SAME 100M in revenue and making the SAME 1M in profit? Nobody could ever explain me that logic, I just can't grasp it but I was paid for it, don't ask me how but it happened."

He never mind the fact he got paid but he never really understood how that system worked and why it's there in the first place.

[Amputate Your Head]

Originally Posted by notime

A friend of mine who sold his company to an other company noted on the stock exchange 8 years ago, he frequently visits my office just to chat, have coffee, talk about life, problems with kids/wife and do gossip and all. He once said this to me, and I recall it perfectly: "If you have a company doing 100M per year making 1M profit and you go public IPO, how can a company be worth a billion a day later, since they still doing the SAME 100M in revenue and making the SAME 1M in profit? Nobody could ever explain me that logic, I just can't grasp it but I was paid for it, don't ask me how but it happened."

He never mind the fact he got paid but he never really understood how that system worked and why it's there in the first place.

I was involved with a few companies back in the dot com bubble that were on the verge of IPO... hell there was no end to them here in Silicon Valley back then, everyone was "the next big thing about to IPO".... some made it, some didn't. But shit, I remember those crazy dot com schemes and businesses spending money like I've never seen before, or since. Insane spending. And it was all perfectly normal. Run out? Just hit the investors up for another check. The general vibe was, "after IPO we'll all be worth billions, so it doesn't matter".

Of course we know how that worked out.... lol

[IllTestYourGirls]

Manipulation to try to get people to buy bonds or a correction that will run deep.

[The Demon]

Originally Posted by IllTestYourGirls

Manipulation to try to get people to buy bonds or a correction that will run deep.

People would be stupid to buy bonds or treasuries at this point or any point in the future.

[GAMEFINEST]

not sure why the market is going up anywho,

while we are in deeper debt..

[mayabong]

Since most people don't know dick about the banking system maybe a black man can explain some history to you.

[TidalWave]

buy low, sell high.

this is low

[scubadiver626]

Markets sell off so fast because fear is a much more powerful emotion than greed.

American dominance in the world economy is over. Accept it. Unless Uncle Sam decides to start another world war and fights it in someone elses backyard. You'd be wise to consider moving money overseas, specially Asia.

Or trade it, going long isnt the only direction... be just as prepared to short the market. But most of all be patient and use yer noggin'

[LoveSandra]

Originally Posted by MDCQ

something big is about to happen

[wig]

Originally Posted by L-Pink

And with ZERO incentive to save cash where do people put their money? Real estate? lol


.

I would not say there is zero incentive to save cash but rather that it is very difficult given the returns. That is what easing is suppose to do -- get you to seek return by investing in non-cash derivatives.

On the contrary, cash and cash equivalents in the safest institutions and governments is where I would invest liquidity.

[wig]

Originally Posted by The Demon

People would be stupid to buy bonds or treasuries at this point or any point in the future.

You've said this before, yet the US bond market and the dollar have been going straight up recently.

Still, I agree that the long end of the curve has a lot of risk and eventually I see bonds declining. Same with the dollar.

Right now, cash and cash equivalents is where the safety is and the means to a great extent dollar denominated T-bills (short-end of the curve).

It's the same deflation vs inflation view in the short-term.

[seeandsee]

Looks like S/N Corea war ia about to start, just before world cup kick off i guess

[Antonio]

Originally Posted by wig

Still, I agree that the long end of the curve has a lot of risk and eventually I see bonds declining. Same with the dollar.

the dollar is looking good right now (against the euro); most analysts think that it will stay that way or even appreciate and I happen to agree with them

[Gerco]

Originally Posted by seeandsee

Looks like S/N Corea war ia about to start, just before world cup kick off i guess

Start? It never officially ended. They have just been in a state of cease fire.

[Caligari]

Originally Posted by notime

He never mind the fact he got paid but he never really understood how that system worked and why it's there in the first place.

Number one problem. People have been duped into thinking that the stock market is a valid source of gauging one's economy. It's little more than the largest legal casino in the world. Unfortunately a casino wherein people's lives and livelyhoods are played with on a daily basis.

The entire system must fundamentally change. Capitalism is not the problem. Un-checked capitalism is the problem.

[The Demon]

I was only 3 months off.

[The Demon]

The entire system must fundamentally change. Capitalism is not the problem. Un-checked capitalism is the problem.

Heavily regulated capitalism is an even bigger problem. Obama doesn't know how to go right down the middle, so he goes from one extreme to the other.

[DaddyHalbucks]

Hope and change, Baby!

[Caligari]

Heavily regulated capitalism is an even bigger problem. Obama doesn't know how to go right down the middle, so he goes from one extreme to the other.

Bush did the bailout, Obama just fell in line like the good tool he is.

[wig]

Originally Posted by Antonio

the dollar is looking good right now (against the euro); most analysts think that it will stay that way or even appreciate and I happen to agree with them

I agree... In fact, I've been saying exactly that in all the recent dollar collapse threads (that have gone away recently it seems).

That said, at some future point the dollar will likely resume its' decline unless there is a miracle.

[sortie]

We're All Going To Die!!!


Unfortunately it will still take too long for some of us to die.

[The Demon]

Originally Posted by Caligari

Bush did the bailout, Obama just fell in line like the good tool he is.

Bush signed some of the bailouts, Obama signed and did the majority of them, hell he's still doing it.

[The Demon]

Originally Posted by wig

I agree... In fact, I've been saying exactly that in all the recent dollar collapse threads (that have gone away recently it seems).

That said, at some future point the dollar will likely resume its' decline unless there is a miracle.

I am willing to bet my life savings on this logic. The dollar has nowhere to go but down. There is nothing suggesting it will rise anytime soon, other than comparatively to the Euro and when the European crisis is over, we'll still have ours and the dollar will continue declining.

[Caligari]

Originally Posted by The Demon

Bush signed some of the bailouts, Obama signed and did the majority of them, hell he's still doing it.

are you completely delusional? bush signed some of the bailouts? Bush admin ENGINEERED the first 800 billion dollar bailout after the pyramid scheme collapsed.
Amazing how people try to re-write history.

[wig]

Yup... It's really just a matter of what you expect in the near-term.

If you see deflation as a result from a continuing contraction of credit, the pressure on the dollar will not be there until the unwinding of the debt is over.

Then, I think we agree what will likely happen to the dollar.

[The Demon]

Originally Posted by Caligari

are you completely delusional? bush signed some of the bailouts? Bush admin ENGINEERED the first 800 billion dollar bailout after the pyramid scheme collapsed.
Amazing how people try to re-write history.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...011300861.html

http://biggovernment.com/capitolconf...f-wall-street/

http://www.usnews.com/money/blogs/fl...ook-like-bushs

http://www.redstate.com/brian_d/2010...-bailout-fund/

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503983_1...37-503983.html

http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...uts-paying-off

I could go on but I think we get the point.

[The Demon]

Originally Posted by wig

Yup... It's really just a matter of what you expect in the near-term.

If you see deflation as a result from a continuing contraction of credit, the pressure on the dollar will not be there until the unwinding of the debt is over.

Then, I think we agree what will likely happen to the dollar.

Some people see a deflationary spiral coming for the double dip depression, I'm on the side of Paul and Schiff. I see inflation, high inflation, and then hyperinflation.

[Caligari]

Originally Posted by The Demon

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...011300861.html

http://biggovernment.com/capitolconf...f-wall-street/

http://www.usnews.com/money/blogs/fl...ook-like-bushs

http://www.redstate.com/brian_d/2010...-bailout-fund/

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503983_1...37-503983.html

http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...uts-paying-off

I could go on but I think we get the point.

Oh we get the point all right. Washington Post, biggovernment.com??

[The Demon]

Originally Posted by Caligari

Oh we get the point all right. Washington Post, biggovernment.com??

Yea, we do. Predictably, you start bitching about the sources. I rest my case.

[wig]

There's a lot of political ideology operative in this discussion that seems to me to be off the mark.

It didn't start under Obama. It didn't start under Bush, although it may have reached the end then.

Did it start under Clinton with the tech bubble... Reagan? How about Nixon and the gold standard? Shall we go back further?

The point is that no one made the masses leverage themselves out of control except the masses themselves. It's crowd behavior finally culminating in a bubble(s) of proportions we have not seen in some time.

The consequences are what they are.

[wig]

Originally Posted by The Demon

Some people see a deflationary spiral coming for the double dip depression, I'm on the side of Paul and Schiff. I see inflation, high inflation, and then hyperinflation.

I gotcha... It's just that there is nothing indicating this is a serious near-term threat.

If it were, it wouldn't just be gold hitting new highs.

[mpahlca]

This is what is happening now, soverign debt crisis created by the bailouts of government's trying to regulate a supposed free market economy.

Anyone blaming a single president for this system and problems could go back to Ronald Regan easily enough, and start looking at how he pushed the trickle down economy with a move to lesser regulation on banking sector and a more free enviornment for banks to "create" money based on the tresaury valuations, this created the loan based economy. This is where to grow you need to borrow money to achieve new growth, what this did was open up loans to more people, so now more people could afford their own home, ok what did that do? well it created a demand for houses that pushed up housing prices which in turn created a domestic job surplus which created more money, which created more job, which created more buying, but its all based on debt.

If you think there is a short term solution to this massive macro economic problem you are all kidding yourselves. There are two solutions, one governments go austerity route and pay down debt stop spending what they dont have and go back to pre world war II slow economic growth, or two they all declare bankruptcy and run the same debt up again.

Anyway that is my little 2 cents chew on it what you will.

[The Demon]

Originally Posted by wig

I gotcha... It's just that there is nothing indicating this is a serious near-term threat.

If it were, it wouldn't just be gold hitting new highs.

Well see, this is where we disagree. I think Bernanke is fucking is over by keeping interest rates at zero, and the ONLY logical step for him in the near future would be to raise them. Then it's the end game.

[CarlosTheGaucho]

Originally Posted by notime

A friend of mine who sold his company to an other company noted on the stock exchange 8 years ago, he frequently visits my office just to chat, have coffee, talk about life, problems with kids/wife and do gossip and all. He once said this to me, and I recall it perfectly: "If you have a company doing 100M per year making 1M profit and you go public IPO, how can a company be worth a billion a day later, since they still doing the SAME 100M in revenue and making the SAME 1M in profit? Nobody could ever explain me that logic, I just can't grasp it but I was paid for it, don't ask me how but it happened."

He never mind the fact he got paid but he never really understood how that system worked and why it's there in the first place.

Which stock market do you mean, Jack?

There is a major difference between valuation of assets in the Anglo American banking and continential banking.

While EU stock markets are in general very strict about valuation (as far as I'm concerned you can't include for example future revenues from already signed contracts into accounting etc. etc.) plus everyone is crazy about taxes.

US is exactly the opposite and you try to valuate your company / revenues / figures as high as possible.

An extreme example is what happened with Enron, of course hiring a consulting company to fake your audits is not exactly a standard procedure, but they were granted to use the, now I can't think of the correct term, method of valuation where you operate with all future revenues or revenues that were not cashed yet.

[wig]

Originally Posted by The Demon

Well see, this is where we disagree. I think Bernanke is fucking is over by keeping interest rates at zero, and the ONLY logical step for him in the near future would be to raise them. Then it's the end game.

Just remember what has taken place in Japan since 1990.

Here's a chart of the CRB... http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/CR/M

Now, that does not look like the markets are worried about inflation at present.

[Caligari]

Originally Posted by mpahlca

This is what is happening now, soverign debt crisis created by the bailouts of government's trying to regulate a supposed free market economy.

Anyone blaming a single president for this system and problems could go back to Ronald Regan easily enough, and start looking at how he pushed the trickle down economy with a move to lesser regulation on banking sector and a more free enviornment for banks to "create" money based on the tresaury valuations, this created the loan based economy. This is where to grow you need to borrow money to achieve new growth, what this did was open up loans to more people, so now more people could afford their own home, ok what did that do? well it created a demand for houses that pushed up housing prices which in turn created a domestic job surplus which created more money, which created more job, which created more buying, but its all based on debt.

If you think there is a short term solution to this massive macro economic problem you are all kidding yourselves. There are two solutions, one governments go austerity route and pay down debt stop spending what they dont have and go back to pre world war II slow economic growth, or two they all declare bankruptcy and run the same debt up again.

Anyway that is my little 2 cents chew on it what you will.

quoted for the truth.

[CarlosTheGaucho]

Originally Posted by wig

There's a lot of political ideology operative in this discussion that seems to me to be off the mark.

It didn't start under Obama. It didn't start under Bush, although it may have reached the end then.

Did it start under Clinton with the tech bubble... Reagan? How about Nixon and the gold standard? Shall we go back further?

The point is that no one made the masses leverage themselves out of control except the masses themselves. It's crowd behavior finally culminating in a bubble(s) of proportions we have not seen in some time.

The consequences are what they are.

I'd go even further and say it started when a certain private institution again regained a monopoly on printing the US currency.

The illusion works well and I wonder what percentage of Americans even know a bit about the history of FED.

I don't want to get into any heated discussion though,

you get fucked in the ass in any place of this world be it

banks (universal global ass fucking)

government (local ass fucking directly related to the banks)

"global corporations" (global ass fucking)

With so many people out there that have no clue, who are those that are served them to vote for and create an illusion of "democracy", this will hardly change anytime soon, and even if there hypothetically would be some sort of "revolution" it would only create more mess.

I've accepted the fact that ass fucking is an essential part of today's reality.

[mpahlca]

If you really want America to be in trouble Audit the Fed, as a non american I would fucking love it, as I could buy your companies and property up at pennies

[CarlosTheGaucho]

Originally Posted by mpahlca

This is what is happening now, soverign debt crisis created by the bailouts of government's trying to regulate a supposed free market economy.

Anyone blaming a single president for this system and problems could go back to Ronald Regan easily enough, and start looking at how he pushed the trickle down economy with a move to lesser regulation on banking sector and a more free enviornment for banks to "create" money based on the tresaury valuations, this created the loan based economy. This is where to grow you need to borrow money to achieve new growth, what this did was open up loans to more people, so now more people could afford their own home, ok what did that do? well it created a demand for houses that pushed up housing prices which in turn created a domestic job surplus which created more money, which created more job, which created more buying, but its all based on debt.

If you think there is a short term solution to this massive macro economic problem you are all kidding yourselves. There are two solutions, one governments go austerity route and pay down debt stop spending what they dont have and go back to pre world war II slow economic growth, or two they all declare bankruptcy and run the same debt up again.

Anyway that is my little 2 cents chew on it what you will.

In short words

- everything was geared towards maximizing of the consumption of worthless money (that are not backed with anything) someone has a monopoly for (if you'd take them as commodity).

To create a major dependability on banks on the personal AND government level, and enabling them to effectively parasite on the economy.

Even a part of your taxes or indirect taxes from spending is now used by government to paying back to the banks.

[The Demon]

I believe since the fed was created in 1913, the value of the dollar has dropped around 97%.