yeah well. teabaggers types as a whole want to run the country into the ground, bankrupt the federal government, and remove their powers by removing their ability to fund anything, returning all the power to the individual states. it is a secessionist style movement, without having to do the dirty work of getting out. rather they want the house to fall down, so they can just move out without taking the blame.

Obama projects spending $47.315 Trillion over the next 10 years (2012 – 2021), an increase of $17.485 Trillion above the level of spending by the previous president in his last fiscal year in office (2008). That's an increase of 59% in spending above the 2008 level, and an increase of 98% above Bush's average level of spending.

Obama projects the National Debt increasing to $26.346 Trillion (vs $10.025 Trillion for Bush's last fiscal year in office - 2008), an increase of $16.321 Trillion.


(a) - See the White House Budget for 2012 – Tables S-1 and S-14. The link is below;

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/defa...ets/tables.pdf


For verification of the Deficits, here is another link to an Obama White House site;
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/Historicals See Table 1.1

I don't believe any of that. I've only seen the real "leaders" of the "tea party" movement a few times on television news. And every time they were on, they emphatically stated that the people that are holding themselves up as representing the tea party to the media are NOT the real tea party type people.

The foundation of the "tea party" was simply to reduce govt. and have more freedom and less taxation for stuff we don't want (like invading countries, drug wars, etc.)

It was damn near libertarian.

But the second that it took off on a grass roots level...the religious crazies jumped out front and claimed that they were suddenly in the "tea party". And all their followers did the same.

So to say that all tea party people think and believe the same exact thing is ridiculous.

My own personal opinion is that "yes" the govt. has gotten far too big over the last 40 years. And it has dug itself into debt that we can never get out of. Politicians are "career" people now. And the whole thing is corrupt and needs a big enema.

The people should FIRE all the Republicans and Democrats. ALL of them. Send their ass home.

The founding fathers never meant for politicians to spend their whole lives in office living in Washington, DC and spending money every day (10 BILLION dollars a day).

They were supposed to live at HOME and have jobs. And only convene Congress a couple of times a year to take care of business or in case of emergency.

What we have now is a giant con game in Washington DC and a country full of people who identify themselves as "republican" or "democrat" and treat this whole thing like it's a sports event and argue amongst themselves.

Meanwhile, career politicians are spending money like drunken sailors and laughing at you.

You got it, why else would you spend 4-5 million to get a gig that pays 174k per year.

funny learning who was funning the bus rides of tea partiers to madison for that union strike

the banks who own your politicians will never let the US default.

http://www.RonPaul.com/welcome.php

Well said Rochard :thumbsup

Very interesting story of yours too, I never would have expected you to have been a bankrupt, and nor would I have expected Simon Cowell

This is the main barrier

1 politician advocating defaulting on obligations.

What if they already got their money via 16.1 trillion in interest free loans? What if the last few years has really been about delaying the crash so they can secure their future because they know that we can't continue on the way things are. That their little scam is up and more and more people everyday are beginning to understand that it's all just one big fucking ponzi scheme.

Totally agree, corporate welfare should have ended a long time ago.

Agreed that in fact, the Military is one of the few reasons for a federal government. That being said though, at what point does our Military Superiority need to stop? We are in the 4th quarter and up by 100 points. Do we really need to keep putting points on the board? How Superior we need to be?

I'm not sure if that makes sense but to me, the idea of more, more, more with our military at some point needs to stop when we realize we are by far the strongest. Do we really need to keep spending billions on new weapons? More troops perhaps but then again, this is only limited by how many are willing to join. I've never seen a Not Hiring sign on the doors of a military recruiter.

Everyone talks about the US as if the US is doing something unique. The simple fact is that many large economies are bordering on default. The EU wasn't in a panic over a Greek default because everyone just happens to love Greece and just felt sympathetic.

And that is one of the biggest problems with our country.

The govt. is now the biggest employer. We have already fucked ourselves severely. :(

Pull the plug and move forward.

I was in Russia when the government devalued the Ruble and first defaulted on the GKO bonds. Yeltsin gave a speech the night before the Ruble was devalued reassuring everyone that they would not devalue the Ruble and in the morning, the entire financial system was in shambles... I knew many bank presidents that had no idea it was coming. I had a shitload of money tied up in banks that couldn't release any money for months, simply because they had no clue what it was worth... or what it would be worth in 5 minutes or 10 or 15. The streets were red with blood in Moscow and St Petersburg of bank owners who had their licenses yanked by the government and funds seized or assets frozen for being unstable, and/or money laundering banks.

BUT... guess what?

Life went on. Things were weird for a few weeks as an economy relying on imports tried to adjust to the fact that goods were bought at XX.XX$ but had to be sold in Rubles and there was no way they could sell for enough to recoup enough Rubles to convert back to $ to repay the credit lines.

Life went on. Everyone adjusted. Everything adjusted and a few months later, you would have never known it even happened. Out of the ashes rose a stronger, more reliable system and the currency also began to stabilize after almost a decade in a free fall.

The only real problem is "confidence" with currency, investments etc. However, what everyone seems to willfully ignore is that the financial markets don't work that way in an absolute sense. Where confidence erodes, there is opportunity, there will be investment. Where people walk away, other more risk tolerant investors step in. Where people are abandoning a currency, there are no shortage of investors willing to capitalize on the chaos. Where people abandone a market, there are no shortage of investors willing to capitalize.There will NEVER be a collapse... simply an adjustment. The USA is not a 3rd world country. We are part of a very tightly integrated global economy. A cog in a massive machine that will never fail in the sense people seem to think it will/can. A full out default will be a temporary problem and the simple truth is that we will most likely never know it happened or feel it. Chaos is opportunity. Opportunity brings investment. That is always true in a free market economy.

Since everyone in this thread and all the people that think they "know" haven't experienced this stuff first hand or witnessed it or lived through it, I wouldn't take anything said seriously.

I've heard you make this kind of argument many times.

But I haven't heard you suggest any solutions. Specifically, what is going to provide employment when you kill the federal government?

What tyoes of work do you see americans doing, for whom, and how much will they be paid?

How will they handle retirement?

This same question is open to all you anti-big-government people.

How do you see your 'ideal' unmanaged american economy competing in the world marketplace?

I'm not saying cut back on Troops, what I said was cut back on expensive weapons developement and waste. Do you realize that each Stealth Bomber (B2) cost $1.5 Billion? As I said, I support the military and am a veteran myself. But the waste is there as much as it is in all government but for some reason, Military Waste is acceptable?

That was the most alarming thing I've seen in days and in fact, hadn't even thought of this. We have mushroomed our government much like the baby boomers mushroomed social security. We all know that the government isn't putting funds aside for latter for this so what happens in 20 year or more when these new hires retire? Holy fuck, this just keeps getting worse.

I'm so getting drunk now.

Well, the whole concept of retirement is a relatively recent invention. But, a mechanized industrial society needs somnething like it, because it has to break up the extended family into the nuclear family in order to be able to efficiently move workers around to the changing industrial centers.

With the shutting down of the agricultural extended family lifestyle, something like retirement had to be invented.

But, retirement is based on a ponzi model - you HAVE to keep expanding population and energy use in order to pay for your last 2-3 generations of seniors.

So, it's a complex problem to solve.

Right now both republicans and democrats are advocating a type of retirement default, so they can cut out that last few generations from teh ponzi scheme.

And then what - start a new ponzi?

the military plans to replace 30% of troops with robots by 2014. that should add up to a big increase in costs. not sure why or how but that is how the military works, shit don't get cheaper.

Well the CBO just announced that Boehner's bill does NOT CUT ENOUGH!

So much for anybody saying it was too much. lol

http://money.cnn.com/2011/07/26/news..._boehner_bill/

Robots dont need lifelong medicare care, VA benefits, and all the other long term costs of maintaining our military.

Well, technically, we dont use true robots, we use remotely operated weapons systems, and the guy sitting in the trailer with the joystick is still due those lifelong benefits.

But brain and CNS injuries are less likely and that huge cost is reduced. Well except for the repetitive motion injuries.

i don't make the rules, nevertheless, i can observe them. fact is, the price of shit stamped military goes up. if you want to argue about the long term costs of a future robot army v. human one, carry on. :1orglaugh

They shouldnt be talking about cutting at all. It should be jobs jobs jobs. After WW2 the deficit was much higher 120 % of gdp.The right wants this to be focus because you start cutting now the economy will weaken and they are setting up their win. Unfortunately Obama the weak played right into it.
The right doesnt care about spending , remember Dick Cheney Deficits dont matter. Now I look back I respect that the man at least had balls and a spine.

also privatizing things in the military privates used to do ran up the bill. Before in war grunts cooked for grunts, not kb employees making 80 k a year.

wow was just reading some of that article and did not realise it was that bad

An unprecedented number of Americans now depend on the government for assistance. Roughly one in six people are receiving public aid, with Medicaid and food stamps straining in the wake of the Great Recession.

A record 44.6 million people -- or one in seven Americans -- received food stamps in April. That's up nearly 10% from the year before. The government is scheduled to send out $6.7 billion in food and nutrition support, which includes aid for children, pregnant women and new mothers, in August.


Medicaid, the nation's largest safety net program, serves more than 60 million people. It not only provides health insurance for low-income Americans, but it is also the primary payer for two-thirds of the country's nursing home residents. Some $50 billion in Medicaid and Medicare payments are set to go out in August.

Nearly 5 million low-income families depend on vouchers or other assistance from the Department of Housing and Urban Development to keep a roof over their heads. But the $6.7 billion in payments in August could be at risk.

And some 3.8 million of the long-term jobless are receiving federal unemployment benefits, which could be halted if the impasse isn't resolved. They are scheduled to collect $12.8 billion in August.

The cost/benefit of a remote and robotized military is just an interesting side issue. But you did bring it up.

Congress won't touch the manufacture of $70k hellfires. Too much profit margin in weapons systems. Thats what, a 70-to-one margin? $69k profit leaves a lot of bribe/re-election money on the table.

All weapons manufacturing has a similar scale of profit margin. And so much of any weapons system is expendable - made to be used up and replaced.

Thats a lot of government guaranteed profit. The most purely socialistic of all economies.

i hear ya, sorry, the cost thing comment was more sarcasm than anything. :)

we need to start letting people die..

the US is a 3rd world country now and we need to start acting like one..

in 3rd world countries, children take care of their parents, not the govt..

if people dont have this support, they die..

the global population is too high anyway..

i have no problems stepping over dead bodies in the street.. :2 cents:






.

And I'm sad to say that not only do I know a lot of people who are DELIBERATELY living on the dole...I am also ashamed and embarrassed to admit that I have members of my own family doing the same goddamn thing!

It's all kinda fucked up. And I know that there are lots of people out there who DO really need assistance. But I personally don't know them. :(

I have piece of shit family members who haven't done anything in over ten years. One female in my family has 3 kids, lives in a govt. housing project, gets a check from the govt. to live on, utilities are included in her apartment as well as furnishings, she gets food stamps...and works as a waitress at a local bar for under the table pay and tips.

She will NOT get a legit job that goes on the books because if she did she would lose all the free shit from the govt. :(

I know a lot of people who are doing the same thing with unemployment benefits. One of the guys I know has been on unemployment for about 3 months now...he isn't even TRYING to find a job. He collects that check and goes and works the flea market on the weekend.

I know I've seen a LOT of this kind of thing both here in Vegas, with people I know in South Carolina where I used to live, and in Florida where my family is. So I'm thinking it's the same everywhere.

I honestly believe that a lot of folks could get work...but just will not. And no, I don't mean they can go out and get a great paying job. But they could WORK for a living if they wanted to. But they have no need to. The govt. has them under control with what I call "welfare". :(

It's helping to bankrupt our economy in SO many ways and destroying the fiber of our nation as well as screwing people who legitimately NEED help.

I am not saying they are the same. A constant in "doom and gloom" business is that the hype is always exponentially greater than the reality.

My point was simply that the unthinkable happened and it was no big deal. Before it, people were worried about anarchy, a stray nuclear arsenal, a military revolt, a nation striking, communism coming back, a complete halt on foreign investment, a complete halt on foreign loans and so on and so forth. I could go on forever with the list of concerns. It was going to be the end of the Russian world, just at a time when they were starting to trust banks, inflation was coming under control and the currency was stabilizing, people were getting used to the idea of owning property, when people were trying to bring their money out of the shadows and so on.

My view is that when you get into the "this time its different" discussion, that's no different than voicing any other concern, no matter how reasonable or unreasonable. The hype and concern is always far worse than the reality. Anyone can find reasons why "this time its different" but at the end of the day, a free market adjusts very quickly, investors still invest, markets rebound, currencies recover etc.

Anyway, i seriously doubt the world would skip a beat. I've watched this all happen first hand. The housing market has already collapsed in the US. Did anyone's lives end? Was the world forever changed? Nope. People who couldn't afford the homes they were in lost them. People who couldn't afford their investment properties let them go. Others just walked away from properties under water. It was about as much of a complete meltdown of the housing market as this country has ever seen and at the end of the day, it meant very little in the grand scheme of things.

you paid for unemployment benefits they are not a gift. its insurance some people paid into for over 20 yrs.

We have a similar thing going on over here with the long term unemployed and it pisses me off because I work my ass off, to have some of my taxes going towards keeping those lazy bastards who wont get off thier asses and work. I think they should give people 6 months to get a job and if they dont then stop paying them any money at all, because they dont deserve to be kept by the working people. Im not talking about people who really need help here just the assholes who play the system

No Tony...theoretically they paid for unemployment benefits. What I have read is that unemployment benefits are being extended for months and months now. WAY past what people "paid" into them. Especially some of the people I'm talking about. Guys back in S.C. I know who are the worst drunks you've ever seen...it's disgusting. The people I'm talking about are not decent folks like you, they are true scumbags. And the scumbags outnumber the rest of us. :(

And don't forget that while people were "paying" into their unemployment benefits...the company that hired them was being forced to not only pay health care...but also MATCH them on their social security taxes to the govt.

The govt. is raking in DOUBLE on Social Security taxes on people who are employed by a business...and STILL going bankrupt. :(

It's just human nature. Most people aren't that ambitious. And if they can get a paycheck and sit on the couch and watch television they WILL. If they know they have a year of checks that they can get...they will wait for exactly one year to go look for a job.

forced to pay to for healthcare? they didnt have to offer it, there is no rule employers have to offer healthcare. Offering healthcare started to attract workers during ww2 by the kaisers.

I agree with Ron Paul with this statement, Sooner or later we have to default.