Incorrect. Since it was passed on budget reconciliation of 51 votes, and is a tax, it can also be repealed on the same basis of 51 votes.

You're assuming that those 50 million people NEED insurance. I never had need of any until I was 41 years old.

The vast majority of people don't have catastrophic accidents and illnesses. And most young folks are pretty healthy.

I never even went to a doctor for damn near 20 years. And most of my friends and acquaintances were the same way.

I'm not arguing...but it seems like the media are over-hyping it. When I was a kid living in a small town in central Florida NOBODY in my family had health insurance.

People went to the doctor and paid it out of their pocket. It's health COSTS that are the problem. Not health insurance.

And that's something that's not even been addressed in any way by any politician. It's a scam.

We are overcharged for everything medical-related in America. From surgeries to prescription medication...we pay many times over what anybody else does in the world.

One other thought...I've seen people loudly proclaim that "every other CIVILIZED country has "free" health care"
But aren't all those other countries completely bankrupt and having riots in the streets?

You ARE ALL IDIOTS. it's the law now. DEAL WITH IT. LOL

Yes, because nobody knows how to filibuster or use other Cngressional rules to stalemate the process...
60 votes is what would be needed to overcome that.

You can eliminate the mandate tax with a vote of 51 by doing the same budget reconciliation that the Democrates used to pass it.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/with-5...0Dp79Y.twitter

http://politicalwire.com/archives/20...e_mandate.html

http://blog.heritage.org/2012/06/28/...eal-obamacare/

Yep Yep.

We can spend THOUSANDS on TV's, Cars extras, Video games, tons of other just wanted stuff, but not on being healthy. Sure there are exceptions, but most people that run to the Doc for a Cold do not need to go. When you do go, it is cheaper in most cases to ask for cash price and pay out of pocket.

Health coverage/insurance should be free for EVERYBODY. Look at Canada or France...how do they do it?

People on medicaid are getting better care than people paying insurance in the US. Its fucking ridiculous... insured people still pay 20-30% of their bill, after they meet their deductible, which is often $1000/ year per family member... medicaid/medicare patients pay NOTHING! Insurance is a huge scam!

Let the gov pay for it 100%... they were spending $ 13 billions/ month on war last year

Very high taxes, and longer wait times. That's how. It's certainly not free to the vast majority of people.

She might be right. There are some new provisions which still allow the insurance companies to grandfather existing customers in. You may want to read this link a bit and consider how some of the provisions may affect you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient...t#Provisi ons

What tax rate are you prepared to pay for your free healthcare for everyone, illegals included?

People tend not to use the coverage as much on average when they are younger so if everyone were covered-- even at a young age, it would likely even out in great part. It may also be possible that we can make serious reforms in the pricing to the point where there is little or no need to tax people much more than we do now. For instance at a public hospital funded with tax dollars where I live the CEO earns nearly $850,00 a year. Perhaps we could get away with paying him $150,000 instead and save some money? There were also a couple surgeons who earned over $1 million. Maybe $300,000 would be more reasonable? So on and so forth.

Holy crap. Entitlement.

When you start doing that kind of shit, you will end up with doctors and surgeons from the middle east that you cant fucking understand a damn thing they say to you.

You know, like today when you go to a VA hospital.

Hmm. Most of them around here are already from the middle east or Asia already and some of them earn millions. There's a reason they all want to come here. We tend to pay way more than anyone else. Ridiculously so. This probably has something to do with our high costs to some extent.

I completely agree. Some people just want to live without having to live under constant pain or unnecessary illness. Others think they are entitled to $2 million dollars so that 50,000 others have to suffer.

My mother got really sick about a week ago, so sick that she wound up going to the emergency room because she thought she had food poisoning. So they do one of those tests on her, where they shoot the iodine through your bloodstream, and then they put you in the cat scan machine. The doctor comes back and starts scaring the shit out of her, saying this and that doesn't look right, might be cancer, and she's gotta go to a specialist. He cuts her loose with a script for percocet - that's it. So she makes an appointment for a colonoscopy, meanwhile she's gotta wait three days scared shitless that she might have cancer, she goes, gets it done, turns out it was colitis; a simple bacteria infection. She got the bill the other day for a cat scan, a colonoscopy, and a couple percocets - $15,000.00. Fifteen fucking thousand dollars for about 2 hours worth of tests. She only had to pay $300.00, but imagine if she didn't have insurance.

Nobody is going to be dictating what doctors can earn unless the government nationalizes the whole system and that ain't going to happen in any living person's lifetime.

But, just to play devil's advocate...

Let's say the USA enacted a single payer system tomorrow. Where would all of our current (USA born) doctors and surgeons go? Every other first world country on the planet already has single payer. Where would our doctors go? To Uganda? To the Ivory Coast? Where?

Umm the federal government sets the tuition price on private schools who receive government money. Which is all of them. So it is government involvement that is the cause of rising prices of college and why so many colleges are sitting on hundreds of Billion$ and claiming the need to raise tuition.

Another article for you describing the 51 vote repeal via budget reconciliation

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0612/78002.html

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-...32001036_n.jpg

Yeah, good luck with that.

am i missing something?

from what i read the bad things are

1) 0.9% tax on those making 200k or more a year
2) 700 dollar a year tax or 1% of your total income if you dont have insurance starting in 2014
3) higher tax on invesment payouts


what else changes directly for me that i will personally sit hit my tax bill???

If that is all and we get a better medical system then im ok?

Sorry about your mom not feeling well, but who the fuck goes to the ER for food poisoning. THAT is the problem

What makes you think we are going to end up with a better medical system? Serious question.

I suppose it is just an assumption.
Ive read a little bit about them opening up more things within the FDA to help more generic meds get approved - i assume that is a good thing.


I guess im sorta blind to the medical system in the united states.

I currently am not insured and I have been to the doctor once in the past few years.

I pay for dental out of pocket. Not much 100 bux every few months.

My kids insurance runs me $200 a month and $30 copay and meds cost $5 never any issues

I think if i was one to have a ton of medical expenses I would be able to understand this a bit more


Do you have any insight to as whats so bad in this bill? Im truely confussed. I've tried to ask my dad but he is a hardcore republican that feels anything the dems past is just evil lol


Chris

Not so sure if it'll be better for everybody, but anyone with a pre-existing condition who has lost both his job and his insurance will be one hell of a lot better off with it.

Fewer people using the emergency rooms for routine medical issues seems like a good thing too.

ObamaCare is nowhere near ideal. Not even close. It is marginally better than what we had before however.

If you ever need to question whether or not something the state does is good or bad, follow the formula below.

Let's first define the term "initiation of force"
With that in mind, ask yourself: Does this law initiate force against peaceful individuals?

If yes, the law is wrong. The ACA uses force via coercion. "You either buy health insurance, or you pay a penalty."

More importantly, here's another question:

Is the initiation of force against a peaceful, non-aggressive individual justified?

If you answer yes, you're a statist; you believe in the use of force to solve complex social problems. If you answer no, your belief in the non-aggression principle makes you one of the few enlightened individuals on this planet. ;)

I am like you. I used to provide a group health insurance plan so I could insure my employee and her family. After a few years I realized that it would be a lot cheaper for me to pay for doctor visits when they happened. I went to the doctor for the first time in years and said, "fuck this shit. No mas."

The problem, as I see it, for you and me is that now we must have medical insurance or pay a tax for not having it. I am glad people with pre-existing conditions can not be denied, if it really happens but I do not see the quality of health care going up or prices going down. I have not followed up yet, but I remember reading the local paper in the news rack this morning talking about a shortage of doctors in CA being a new concern. Yesterday the headline was HUGE with the announcement that Obamacare had passed. This is going to be interesting.


Why do you think fewer people will be using the ER?

A lot of people with no insurance will go to the ER for minor things like the flu or sinus infection, because they cant be denied treatment. Things that people with insurance would go see a regular doctor for.

So, instead of having a 8 hour wait at the ER you will have a 5 week wait for an appointment.

She didn't know for sure what was wrong with her. She got sick on a Friday night, spent all day Saturday bedridden in excruciating pain because her intestines were all fucked up, then finally broke down and went Saturday night. Can't see a doctor on the weekends. And how exactly is that a problem? She has health insurance. She's supposed to fucking lay around in agony so as not to inconvenience the doctors? She didn't have food poisoning, anyway, but just like the healthcare mandate, I doubt you bothered to read my post. ;)









Guaran-fucking-tee you that nobody bitching about this on here has even read anything about the act; bunch of reactionaries. Like anything else, people read a headline and jump right in with their blah blah blah. Big Gubment stealing my money.

with national health care, you would still go to a private doctor. The only difference would be that the payer would be the state. And if you didn’t want the state to pay, you could always just buy your own insurance or pay out of your pocket. Even with single payer, no one would force you to use the system.






Okay, let's see, here's what's so bad:

It’s a good first step on the roa to universal health care, which is what we all want.

Parents can cover their kids until they are 26 years old.

No discrimination on preexisting conditions.

All children get covered.

Greatly expands Medicaid coverage to cover 32 million currently uninsured.

Preventive health services like mammograms, birth control, and well women visits will be covered without a co-pay or deductible.

Women will no longer be denied health coverage for having survived domestic violence or rape, or having had a Caesarean section.

Subsidies to help tens of millions of Americans buy health insurance.

Requiring insurers to cover contraception and other preventive health care without co-pays/

Prohibiting sex-based discrimination in pricing insurance premiums.

No loss of coverage when a family member gets sick.

Maternity care will be included in all health care plans.




What kind of fucking savage would be against universal healthcare? What fucking good is Western medicine if sick people can't get it? This shit should be free. This is how civilization is supposed to work. We are supposed to be progressing as a species, not going backwards.

Five years ago more people had health insurance than now. Twenty years ago a much larger proportion of the population had health insurance and thirty years ago nearly everyone had it.

I don't remember ever having to wait more than a week or two to see my regular doc and oftentimes no more than a few days.

Actually that's the one part of the law that the Supreme Court did shoot down.

It'll still happen in the individual states that cooperate, but the Feds have lost the ability to penalize any states that choose to not expand Medicaid coverage.

Bottom line: If you have a Republican Governor Medicaid coverage expansion ain't going to happen in your state.

I made another post about this, but What Exactly does this do?
All I see is on FB how people are going on and on how their special needs children are now covered. Are they covered for Free? or it just allows them to be able to purchase insurance now?
If they can not afford it, is there like a sliding scale?
What does this cover now, so many people are posting they are covered for everything now for free.
All I seen was you HAVE to Buy and are now Allowed to buy, and covered till 26, but then after 26 you have to buy your own, HA.

I know here atleast in texas you can not be denied treatment. It's always been the case.

you register at the ER they ask for a payment of some form. They normally recommend atleast $100 you tell them simply " i dont have it " they ask what can you pay ... you tell them what you can pay or so honestly you cant pay nothing and they still treat you

after you are treated you go to the financial dept and they tell you that you will be getting a bill

my parents have adopted a few special needs children and his regular insurance covers everything and what isnt covered is covered by medicade. Again this has always been the case.

I know of another family that has a special needs child and they make 300k+ a year but there child gets free nursing that is being paid for by the state

I guess I am trying to figure out why people are so happy?
All I see is that it Forces people to buy insurance now (middle class) I think the lower class that can not afford it wont get the penalty.

So sad to see how much they OVERCHARGE patients :( especially the ones with insurance ...
Why is medical school so expensive again?

She would have got all that for free if she had medicare.

from what ive read it is 6000 a year and lower are not effected by it ( but i assume anyone with less than say 24k a year would be on some sort of aide anyways )

and then if you do not have insurance ( in 2014 ) you will have to pay a couple hundred dollar tax....still cheaper than buying insurance


The other taxes ive found are on those making 250k a year or more and that is a 0.9% increase on your medicade part a tax you pay 3.9 already

and then if you get any money back from investments you pay 3.9% tax on that

So you pay the couple hundred tax/ fine for the year and are covered for everything?

Barrack Obama : Bigger than Jesus.

Or you still dont have insurance and have to pay the fine? HA

No

You pay the fine for not having bought the overpriced insurance.

YOU STILL HAVE NO COVERAGE IF YOU PAY THE FINE,

All this law does is penalize you for not buying insurance

Unless you're a crackhead or a welfare momma in which case you get your insurance either really cheap or free, paid for by you and me.

And by the way that fine is only a couple hundred in 2014, it goes up to over $2000 in 2016.

Welcome to the New America

If you truly believe that this "law" only penalizes people for not buying insurance you're either incredibly misinformed or not very good at trolling. Either way, I suggest you actually read what this "bill" offers the American people.

Again, as an American I'm happy to see this step forward, and step in the right direction. Thankfully, the intelligent people of this country can also see the good this will do and ignore the fear mongering morons that believe there will be 5 week waits in the ER and other such ignorance.

Just in case people are curious, here's exactly what's in the act. (ripped off from Reddit.com)

Already in effect:
It allows the Food and Drug Administration to approve more generic drugs (making for more competition in the market to drive down prices) ( Citation: An entire section of the bill, called Title VII, is devoted to this, starting on page 747 )
It increases the rebates on drugs people get through Medicare (so drugs cost less) ( Citation: Page 216, sec. 2501 )
It establishes a non-profit group, that the government doesn't directly control, PCORI, to study different kinds of treatments to see what works better and is the best use of money. ( Citation: Page 665, sec. 1181 )
It makes chain restaurants like McDonalds display how many calories are in all of their foods, so people can have an easier time making choices to eat healthy. ( Citation: Page 499, sec. 4205 )
It makes a "high-risk pool" for people with pre-existing conditions. Basically, this is a way to slowly ease into getting rid of "pre-existing conditions" altogether. For now, people who already have health issues that would be considered "pre-existing conditions" can still get insurance, but at different rates than people without them. ( Citation: Page 30, sec. 1101, Page 45, sec. 2704, and Page 46, sec. 2702 )
It forbids insurance companies from discriminating based on a disability, or because they were the victim of domestic abuse in the past (yes, insurers really did deny coverage for that) ( Citation: Page 47, sec. 2705 )
It renews some old policies, and calls for the appointment of various positions.
It creates a new 10% tax on indoor tanning booths. ( Citation: Page 923, sec. 5000B )
It says that health insurance companies can no longer tell customers that they won't get any more coverage because they have hit a "lifetime limit". Basically, if someone has paid for health insurance, that company can't tell that person that he's used that insurance too much throughout his life so they won't cover him any more. They can't do this for lifetime spending, and they're limited in how much they can do this for yearly spending. ( Citation: Page 14, sec. 2711 )
Kids can continue to be covered by their parents' health insurance until they're 26. ( Citation: Page 15, sec. 2714 )
No more "pre-existing conditions" for kids under the age of 19. ( Citation: Page 45, sec. 2704 and Page 57, sec. 1255 )
Insurers have less ability to change the amount customers have to pay for their plans. ( Citation: Page 47, sec. 2794 )
People in a "Medicare Gap" get a rebate to make up for the extra money they would otherwise have to spend. ( Citation: Page 379, sec. 3301 )
Insurers can't just drop customers once they get sick. ( Citation: Page 14, sec. 2712 )
Insurers have to tell customers what they're spending money on. (Instead of just "administrative fee", they have to be more specific).
Insurers need to have an appeals process for when they turn down a claim, so customers have some manner of recourse other than a lawsuit when they're turned down. ( Citation: Page 23, sec. 2719 )
Anti-fraud funding is increased and new ways to stop fraud are created. ( Citation: Page 699, sec. 6402 )
Medicare extends to smaller hospitals. ( Citation: Starting on page 344, the entire section "Part II" seems to deal with this )
Medicare patients with chronic illnesses must be monitored more thoroughly.
Reduces the costs for some companies that handle benefits for the elderly. ( Citation: Page 492, sec. 4202 )
A new website is made to give people insurance and health information. (I think this is it: http://www.healthcare.gov/ ). ( Citation: Page 36, sec. 1103 )
A credit program is made that will make it easier for business to invest in new ways to treat illness by paying half the cost of the investment. (Note - this program was temporary. It already ended) ( Citation: Page 830, sec. 9023 )
A limit is placed on just how much of a percentage of the money an insurer makes can be profit, to make sure they're not price-gouging customers. ( Citation: Page 22, sec. 1101 )
A limit is placed on what type of insurance accounts can be used to pay for over-the-counter drugs without a prescription. Basically, your insurer isn't paying for the Aspirin you bought for that hangover. ( Citation: Page 800, sec. 9003 )
Employers need to list the benefits they provided to employees on their tax forms. ( Citation: Page 800, sec. 9002 )
Any new health plans must provide preventive care (mammograms, colonoscopies, etc.) without requiring any sort of co-pay or charge. ( Citation: Page 14, sec. 2713 )
1/1/2013
If you make over $200,000 a year, your taxes go up a tiny bit (0.9%). Edit: To address those who take issue with the word "tiny", a change of 0.9% is relatively tiny. Any look at how taxes have fluctuated over the years will reveal that a change of less than one percent is miniscule, especially when we're talking about people in the top 5% of earners. ( Citation: Page 818, sec. 9015 )
1/1/2014
This is when a lot of the really big changes happen.
No more "pre-existing conditions". At all. People will be charged the same regardless of their medical history. ( Citation: Page 45, sec. 2704, Page 46, sec. 2701, and Page 57, sec. 1255 )
If you can afford insurance but do not get it, you will be charged a fee. This is the "mandate" that people are talking about. Basically, it's a trade-off for the "pre-existing conditions" bit, saying that since insurers now have to cover you regardless of what you have, you can't just wait to buy insurance until you get sick. Otherwise no one would buy insurance until they needed it. You can opt not to get insurance, but you'll have to pay the fee instead, unless of course you're not buying insurance because you just can't afford it. (Note: On 6/28/12, the Supreme Court ruled that this is Constitutional, as long as it's considered a tax on the uninsured and not a penalty for not buying insurance... nitpicking about wording, mostly, but the long and short of it is, it looks like this is accepted by the courts) ( Citation: Page 145, sec. 5000A, and here is the actual court ruling for those who wish to read it. )
Question: What determines whether or not I can afford the mandate? Will I be forced to pay for insurance I can't afford?
Answer: There are all kinds of checks in place to keep you from getting screwed. Kaiser actually has a webpage with a pretty good rundown on it, if you're worried about it. You can see it here.
Okay, have we got that settled? Okay, moving on...
Medicaid can now be used by everyone up to 133% of the poverty line (basically, a lot more poor people can get insurance) ( Citation: Page 179, sec. 2001 )
Small businesses get some tax credits for two years. (It looks like this is specifically for businesses with 25 or fewer employees) ( Citation: Page 138, sec. 1421 )
Businesses with over 50 employees must offer health insurance to full-time employees, or pay a penalty.
Insurers now can't do annual spending caps. Their customers can get as much health care in a given year as they need. ( Citation: Page 14, sec. 2711 )
Limits how high of an annual deductible insurers can charge customers. ( Citation: Page 62, sec. 1302 )
Cut some Medicare spending
Place a $2500 limit on tax-free spending on FSAs (accounts for medical spending). Basically, people using these accounts now have to pay taxes on any money over $2500 they put into them. ( Citation: Page 801, sec. 9005 )
Establish health insurance exchanges and rebates for the lower and middle-class, basically making it so they have an easier time getting affordable medical coverage. ( Citation: Page 88, sec. 1311 )
Congress and Congressional staff will only be offered the same insurance offered to people in the insurance exchanges, rather than Federal Insurance. Basically, we won't be footing their health care bills any more than any other American citizen. ( Citation: Page 81, sec. 1312 )
A new tax on pharmaceutical companies.
A new tax on the purchase of medical devices.
A new tax on insurance companies based on their market share. Basically, the more of the market they control, the more they'll get taxed.
The amount you can deduct from your taxes for medical expenses increases.
1/1/2015
Doctors' pay will be determined by the quality of their care, not how many people they treat. Edit: a_real_MD addresses questions regarding this one in far more detail and with far more expertise than I can offer in this post. If you're looking for a more in-depth explanation of this one (as many of you are), I highly recommend you give his post a read.
1/1/2017
If any state can come up with their own plan, one which gives citizens the same level of care at the same price as the PPACA, they can ask the Secretary of Health and Human Resources for permission to do their plan instead of the PPACA. So if they can get the same results without, say, the mandate, they can be allowed to do so. Vermont, for example, has expressed a desire to just go straight to single-payer (in simple terms, everyone is covered, and medical expenses are paid by taxpayers). ( Citation: Page 98, sec. 1332 )
2018
All health care plans must now cover preventive care (not just the new ones).
A new tax on "Cadillac" health care plans (more expensive plans for rich people who want fancier coverage).
2020
The elimination of the "Medicare gap"

Yeah, that's wrong.

........

So same as it always has been...

I only care about the part of the bill that says "you must either buy insurance or pay a fine"

the rest of it means absolutely nothing to me, I don't really give a fuck about it.