When my father worked for a very very large international bank in the 70's. There was a large recession, to lay people off was considered a loss of face for the ceo. It was these are our employees we had a duty to them like they have a duty to us. All salaries were frozen and there wasnt much to do but they waited it out.
Now its human capital just dump them . They werent communists.

Discussing a 'rate' change when almost nobody pays the listed rates is beyond retarded. We ought to be making sure the rates are actually applied first, then figure out our revenue and expenditures... and adjust rates accordingly.

Doing it this way is like saying 'I will make a website and charge X per join' before you have any idea what the website will be, what the expenses will be or what the conversion ratios will be like. It's nonsense. We could charge 162% of income for the highest bracket, and Romney would still pay 13-15%.

We do not need a tax rate change. We need structural tax reform. :2 cents:

See you hate obama for whatever madeup reason you are told to believe. Ive said many times he is a huge disappointment. Im no loved at many liberal site for that but its the truth.He isnt a progessive, he is alittle right of Nixon. But out of the two bowls of shit we have to pick from he is better one. I think the way the system is set up now we will never see a progressive again just less right than the right wing extremists.

Also Robbie why are you here talking to us and not at the Olympia talking to the ultra hot fitness chicks?

That is simply false. No generation before this one was able to produce more than it needs with only a tiny fraction of its citizens doing the work. That is a massive foundational change. We just had the most serious drought in decades. The number of people working in agricultural production is tiny compared to what it was 100 years ago. We have 25% under/unemployment. I have yet to see a single food product 'unavailable' on supermarket store shelves. That is brand new in the entire history of humanity.

We do not need most of the people now living. We had best find something useful for them to do, or find a way to placate them - because the only thing massive groups of dim people do well on their own .... is riot. :2 cents:

Rent Soylent Green... ;)

Potatoe - Potato

Problems with different names are still problems.
There are things for people to do. They have to actually want to do something.

Soylent Green, good movie and I think Edward G Robinson's last film.

And there were plenty of companies that did layoffs. Just because your dad's company did not do it does not mean it was not prevelant . . . or the rule of thumb more often than not.

Soylent Green was a warning, not a prediction.

Society has always been segmented into the 'haves' and the 'have-nots.' When the number of haves is going to become very tiny (though how much they will have grows exponentially) and many of the have-nots will be hard working capable extra people simply not needed by society any longer, it is in the interest of the haves to keep the have-nots comfortable enough. A 'Let them eat cake' approach usually results in the many have-nots beheading the few haves.

Watching people try to avoid providing poor people with at least as much as prisons provide inmates (basic food, shelter, clothing, health care) is like watching the NFL have a labor dispute with referees over what reportedly amounted to $60,000 per team. :2 cents:

I didn't even know that was in town this week. lol

I went out last night and got a room at the 4 Queens on Fremont Street (it's bike week) and went out to the Palamino strip club and got wasted.

Suffering a damn hangover from hell today.

I can tell you what I've seen.

In the 1980's I lived in Ft. Lauderdale on the strip. Bums EVERYWHERE. Excuse me...I was politically incorrect..I meant homeless people.

There was work everywhere on the strip. I'm not kidding about that. In 1984 you had to actively avoid work not to get a job. Money was everywhere in Ft. Lauderdale then.
And yet...you couldn't walk down the street without being harassed by guys who were young enough and healthy enough to WORK. But they didn't. All they cared about was getting a few bucks and getting a beer.

I know, I know...you're going to say that's just a small percentage of people. Maybe.

Then I lived in South Carolina from 1992 to 2008. And I saw some of the WORST shit. People living off the govt. out in the bars every weekend spending money on drinks and pot and meth. I saw them because they were in the audiences at all the clubs I played in the Carolinas, Georgia, and Tennessee
A LOT of them.

Now I live n Vegas. The streets here are just like the ones in Ft. Lauderdale in the 1980's. FULL of bums...er, I mean homeless people.
A good percentage of them are just insane. They need to be in mental institutions.
And then there's the majority of them...Perfectly healthy men standing at every intersection scamming...er, I mean asking for money.

And then I go to Star Nursery and I see packs of Mexican men across the street holding up signs to WORK. They know that people go there to buy trees and shrubs for their yard. So these MEN show up there and look for WORK.

They don't beg. They don't whine. They take the bull by the horns and they get out there to work and make money.

I've heard the argument you are making a million times over my life. And I've seen with my own two eyes the nature of some of the "poor" people you feel sorry for.
And I'm not talking about the folks who just need a hand to get back on their feet. Or the elderly who have no family or way to help themselves.
I'm not ignoring them...but you and others in this thread ARE ignoring the millions of sorry, good for nothing BUMS who are simply lazy pieces of shit.

Just wanted to make sure they got their recognition in this discussion. There are LOTS of them out there.

What draws you to a progressive ideology?

I think I'm a Libertarian. I like the idea of people being free to do as they want with minimal govt. interference in their lives.

Seems the Republicans preach freedom...but only for the things they like. They sure do seem to NOT like freedom when it comes to partying or what you do in your bedroom or a woman's right to choose. :(

And the Democrats....I don't really know what the heck they stand for anymore. When I was a kid THEY were the racist war-mongering politicians. Then they became the "liberals" in the late 1970's.
But they don't really seem to have any backbone in giving people freedom. At least Jimmy Carter had the guts to say pot should be decriminalized. But he didn't have the balls to actually DO it.

It seems like all the Republicans and Dems want to do is grow the govt. (the Republicans say differently, but the reality is they are exactly like the Dems) and control everything from Washington D.C. so they can get their greedy hands on it.

10.6 BILLION dollars a day is what the federal govt. spends. 6.85 million dollars PER MINUTE 24 hours a day, every day.
It's outrageous.

The Feds spend more in 30 minutes than Mitt Romneys entire wealth.
Warren Buffet is worth 44 Billion dollars. The feds spend that in 4 days. :(

Robbie,

I agree with you. There are many people in this world who are lazy, incompetent, dim witted sheep. Lets say its 15% of the population. People can quibble over the percent... But for the moment take it as a given. Now acknowledge there are also competent hard working people out of work or unlucky etc who also fall upon hard times. Call it 10% of the population. That number will continue to grow and the speed will accelerate as automation, globalization and efficiency continue to increase.

Within your lifetime more than half the people able to work won't be needed for work. Society can already make all the food we need, all the shelter, clothing, transportation, etc etc etc with a tiny fraction of our population. Not well enough for everyone to live in free mansions and drive designer hand made cars... But easily enough to a moderately comfortable standard of living for the population with a decreasing number of people doing the work. Eventually there will be jobs for 10% of people and the production will be sufficient for 100% of people. That is what is actually coming. What shall we do with most people when we do not need them.

It used to take dozens of people to open a singe storefront a few decades ago. Now, I can open a dozen storefronts in a single day online by myself and manage all of them without a single employee. We grow food with a tiny fraction of the farmers that were needed. We can fight wars that used to require a draft and 100,000 boots on the battle filed by having four guys a few thousand miles away in a simulator flying drones that are 100,000 times more effective.

When most people are 'bums' what do you want to do with them all? Not everyone can be an entertainer or mistress. Many will simply be extra people. Up until now we have jailed many of them for nonviolent crimes. Good luck when it is more than alf the population that we no longer need. The paradigm of only getting what you earn is heading for obsolescence. Like it or not. Hard workers will only be working for luxuries soon, and extra people will be getting baseline needs met whether they work or not. The alternative is mass graves full of hobos.

How many posting in this thread have built their own businesses?
How many have earned more than six figures annually in their lifetime?

It's a simple fact that many people start out as Democrats when they're poor and become Republicans when they "make it".

For me I remain a firm Independant.
A pox on both their houses I say!

The elections are nothing but pagaents meant to distract the poor little people.
The decision on who will run the Corporation of America has been decided long ago.

Obama four more years BUT this election is about "opening the door" for Mormon acceptability, as Leiberman in 2000 was about Jewish acceptability, as it will be when a woman officially runs for President (and loses).

Change comes in waves, over time, and only how the powers that be want it to be.

I say just deal with it and try and do the best you can regardless of who's President.

There is a big problem with what you speak.

China has something like 5 times our population, granted they are a Communist country, but they still have a shitton of people.

Also India almost has the same number of people as China now.

Neither of those countries seems all that fucked up and seem to be growing bigger and bigger.

What simple-minded bullshit.

Does Mitt pay income tax? No. But that won't stop him from from bitching, and it won't stop rubes from eating it up.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A3G3WowCQAAm1_Q.png

Your outlook is pretty bleak.

I say...if a group of illegal mexicans have enough drive and will to work that they are smart enough to go to a plant nursery and hold up signs to do the hard work of digging holes and planting trees...then all those bums standing on the corners here in Vegas with signs begging for handouts could do the same thing.

I've had setbacks in my life. Found myself without a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of.
I've never stayed that way for more than a few days though. I'm driven.

But I know lots of guys who have zero drive and zero ambition.

As for the predictions you are making of everybody being out of work because of the nature of things...that's the same thing we were being told in the 1970's when I was in high school.

And yet...here we are. Up until the end of 2008 this country effectively had full employment. (around 5% unemployment rate)

And once the housing market is stabilized....the economy will start to rise and we will once again be back at that rate. Which is also when federal revenues will rise.

Nice Obama talking point there with that pic.
But it's bullshit.

There are MILLIONS of people who simply live off the govt. dole because they can. If you don't know that it's because you aren't out enough in the real world.

Turn off MSNBC for a few minutes and start going out and meeting people. You'll be surprised at the sneaky shit that people pull to scam for money.

Why are 47% on benefits?

Some of you have been so brainwashed by the far right it's astounding. Instead of being asked why you should ay more tax to look after the 47%. You should be asking yourself why in such a great country 47% need this support and how to fix it.

No stupid answers like, let them find a job. Think it beyond the brainwashing.

I'm on that problem.,.but I am going to have breakfast first

there was a show on TV where they added up all the taxes in my country and they also factored in "secondary tax" this is after tax, when you actually and go spend your already taxed earnings in the shops a considerable part of this money goes to the state also...the figure they came up with is 80+%

my country has a smaller tax rate than the USA...

many lazy shits living off of a few successful people...there lies the real problem IMO

Proof why Americans have turned into the lazy creatures you think they are please.

And no bullshit about because they can.

Because that means millions of Americans have accepted a far lower standard of living than they used to enjoy. So what has changed in America to make so many give up on living a life where their earned income would far exceed their welfare payments. Why have they lost the appetite to better themselves, their children and family? Because if you're right, then America is on a slide down that will only pick up pace.

Of course the truth is easy to find.

Average number of applicants per job

23 per job across all sectors in the UK
Most competitive sectors:

46 per customer service job
45 per secretarial job
42 per retail job

http://recruiterspace.totaljobs.com/...onal_analysis/

http://www.expressandstar.com/busine...bs-in-regions/

http://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-tim...ch-job-vacancy

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2012...-for-21-degree

Maybe they sit at home and don't bother because they know it's a waste of time.

Proof will be to stick an advert on Craigs list for a shop attendant, toilet cleaner and see how many applicants you get.

Minte will tell us better about the situation of hiring people in the US. Highly trained and untrained.

I can tell you about Czech. When Eva puts an advert out for a HGV driver, there are few vacancies. The training is expensive and paid for often by the applicant. Plus these guys are hung onto by employers. When she puts an advert in for a office clerk. Her email box gets over loaded.

Is the solution that Robbie pays more tax now, so the Government can train more people to fill jobs that have fewer applicants. Or waiting for the private sector to spend the money. Knowing once trained the employee can quit and go elsewhere.

China employs a million people making iPhones. Work so tedious that the factory has a high suicide rate among its workers. Work so repetitive that it is destined to become automated in the near future. Then those people won't be needed. Automation is a major blessing because it can be applied to nearly any task. Google is pushing very hard to legalize and build fully automated 'driverless' cars. We aren't that far away from having them. Bye bye taxi drivers, bus drivers, teamsters and the like. We are too smart and too efficient to pay people to drive us a few blocks when we can build cars that do it on their own.

Any idea how many people make a living one way or another driving a vehicle? Soon all of those people will be 'lazy bums who don't want to work or get a job.' Retraining won't fix the problem, we aren't automating a specific job, we are evolving beyond having to do ordinary mundane work. Many people lack the aptitude to be creative, innovative or inventive. Not from laziness, from not having the talent for it. They may be great worker bees, but that doesn't make them capable of creating new products or services, and even if they do it doesn't stop someone else from copying and automating those ideas. Why do you think Apple, Nathan Mhryvold and that crowd are busy patenting everything under the sun?

Repetitive, mundane, hard 9-5 work is drying up and won't be needed. Add in a glut of intellectual property already protected by law and you will end up with a huge out of work population permanently incapable of getting work. There are many now who lack the skills to work a job without getting fired every few weeks. Most people call them lazy idiots or bums. It will be interesting when they are 50+% of the population rather than 15%.... and we are talking about a few decades from now, not a few centuries.

Incidentally, add the number of people in prison and the number of people unemployed, retired, disabled etc...
And the % of extra people is already getting close to half our population or more....

I don't think people ever realize all of the secondary taxes that we get nailed with. I know the numbers are out there, but I don't know them, but how much of our money we actually walk away with at the end of the day

Federal income tax, state income tax, property tax, sales tax, gas tax, automobile tax, etc. etc. etc.

Massive.

Fuck you. :1orglaugh

I was waiting for Robbie to tell us they were all lazy worthless layabouts who like living on the dole. And YOU go and spoil it all by posting the truth. :thumbsup

I didn't really mean FU, my little joke. :winkwink:

Just a few milllion dollars a year.

I think the forty-seven percent number is a little bit too vague here. Someone who receives social security might in fact be collecting money from the government, but in reality they are merely taking out what they put in earlier.

a lot of the 'bums' have mental disorders, learning disablities, etc, etc. not everyone is a perfectly abled person in this world. in fact, there are more people now with problems than ever (so it seems).

We have an HR manager and division VP's. I only get involved in hiring on a staff level.
Last I heard we have more than enough applications for direct labor.

Plato wrote The Republic to further punish humanity for allowing his mentor to be murdered by the state. This means that most of you are thinking and arguing within the paradigm laid out by a vindictive philosopher who has been dead for thousands of years.

...so pardon me for skipping 7 pages of philosophical midgets grunting about what to do with money that should have never been stolen in the first place.

That's why I always say the middle class & the poor pay far more taxes overall than the rich. It's the point I tried to make either earlier on or in some other topic just like this one.. ( I can't remember which)

They always love to say the 1% pay more than the 99%.. Well 99 people buy a hell of a lot more shit than that single 1%er. This is why the entire argument about taxing the rich less because they create jobs is absolutely retarded at best.

The simple fact is the middle/lower class spends more than the upper class because there is many more of them, that means they have more buying power and use more products.. That is what creates more jobs. Not to mention, states receive much more sales tax simply due to the numbers games. 99 people are going to buy more things than that single person. (granted the upper class of course is not just 1%)

Thank you. :thumbsup

Many Western countries are developing a 4 class system.

Upper class, middle class, working class and unemployed class. With the brainwashing applied by the 1-2% the unemployed class are being blamed for the countries problems. Closer inspection shows they are merely victims of the 1-2%.

Why are there 12 million unemployed in the US, UK 2.59 million, France 3.011 million and yet Germany it's under 3 million 5.5%?

Simple answer. Germany is the world's third largest exporter with $1.408 trillion exported in 2011

While countries like America were exporting jobs, Germany was building factories.

Who was exporting jobs? You got it. Now they are laying the blame at the feet of the unemployed. And many here swallow the bullshit while they outsource to anywhere they can get it done cheaper.

Blaming the unemployed or Government spending takes the blame from the real culprits. While everyone from the middle of the middle class down get poorer and those above that line get richer. Too many blame the wrong people.

They don't need to take away your guns to take over the country. They have you brainwashed.

A good read about what you are talking about.

http://taxvox.taxpolicycenter.org/20...t-meet-andrea/

This issue hasn't been settled yet after 7 pages?
WTF people?

Paul you are totally ignorant of the people you THINK you are talking about.

The people I am talking about have NEVER had a higher standard of living. I'm talking about rednecks in the town I lived in in South Carolina. They were in their 20's, most of them sold meth on the side and collected welfare from the govt. because they had no proof of income.

Were they "poor". I guess. But they certainly had plenty of money (from slinging meth for instance) to party their ass off, put new rims on their car, buy dances at the titty bar.

You are so out of touch with what I've seen with my own two eyes that it's stupid of you to even be in this thread commenting on a country that you do not know anything about.

I am nots saying that ALL people are like that. But there are MILLIONS of them here.

People who were raised that way. Their parents were white trailer trash..and now they are white trailer trash. And their kids will be white trailer trash. They haven't lowered their standard of living. Hell they are living it up (in their minds) at a much higher standard. They are "poor"...and yet all have cellphones, a car, cable t.v., a big flat screen, etc.

Now...if you want to talk about the bums on the street begging...a percentage of them are mentally unstable.
But the majority of them are scamming.
I watched a documentary a few weeks ago with John Stossel where they followed "homeless" people...back to their HOMES! And then sat outside and waited until the "homeless" person came back outside dressed in their real clothes and then they confronted them.

Stossel himself put on a fake beard and some shabby clothes and held up a sign. He made over $200 in cash in just a couple of hours.

Again, I'm not saying ALL people are like that.

But to have these discussions and just pretend that millions of Americans don't scam the system is total bullshit.

About 500 billion is spent a year on welfare. Not a big number in the big picture,hate to break it to you.

In the town I grew up in there was an apartment complex that had about 20 units in it. It was a very low income place. Most, if not all, of the people living there were on some kind of welfare or government assistance. There were a few disabled people people there, but most of them were single moms with kids who lived off the system. It was not a glamorous life by any means. I would imaging it was a struggle, but they had food stamps so they had food, the government paid the rent and the welfare covered the rest of the bills so they survived.

The problem was the mentality of the place. There was one woman who had three kids in a two bedroom apartment. Her oldest daughter got knocked up at 17 and immediately went on welfare. The mother was proud! She actually went around telling people how her daughter "makes" $400 a month. Living on welfare is the family business., This woman even told her daughter she can't get married or she will likely lose her welfare so her boyfriend just moved in with them so now they had five people living in a two bedroom apartment.

They have lived their whole lives with a very low standard of living and don't seem to aspire to anything more. Those types of people will never change. No matter what opportunity you offer them they will find a reason to not be able to do it.

No it is because of fucks like you making excuses for them.....
Now that I have said that, YES Lots of People Need help and LOTS are trying to get off assistance, BUT
I know people that when the benefits start to run out, they THEN go look for a job. One bad apple!

But, again this small amount of spending isn't the problem, the taxes are Not the problem. We are all fighting over drops of Water, while the Ocean is being spent every day.
Robbie is Very on track about how much we spend and how much we barrow.
Can YOU keep getting credit cards and maxing them out and then getting more, and one day hope it will be ok? What about when your Monthly min payment is more than you make. IE GDP

When I was a kid and everyone was alive. On Sundays I watched my family have monster arguments about politics. Never once did someone ever change someone else way of thinking.
The trick is not to get mean and personal. It just debate at the end of the day it will change nothing.