Originally Posted by Pseudonymous (Post 19412110)

In your post, you look like youre implying that i brought up members sites. I didn't. The original poster did, i am responding to his question regarding "member sites". If you look at the original post, you'll see the word members was mentioned multiple times. He also mentioned serious money, 3k is 36k a year. Average. I'd say most people live paycheque to paycheque, so 36k a year is generally paycheque to paycheque so i answered his question with 5k in mind , because thats where i draw the line.I have a feeling he was talking about more than a few k a year given the wording he used.

I never once said paysites or affiliate programs is the route to go or you need one or implied it.

If the question is can a new producer make some money in this industry, sure. Course ? Serious money with no experience and willing to go any route, possible but would still be quite the uphill battle.

Originally Posted by Pseudonymous (Post 19412134)

50-100k , well 50-100k means no employees and you handling the roles yourself. given no experience. just dont see it possible. given we're talking about paysites still

I spent more than that in one of the cheaper niches and i had a ton of adult marketing experience before i did it.

you can make some money off of 50-100k but it'd take a veteran to do it or you'd be burning through it. Though it also depends, can you support yourself while you do all the ground work for your business, do you calculate that into the budget.

Sometimes it takes a year for a business to shoot all the content and get the designs, integrations, and the cushion for the learning curve.

So do you take into account, the living costs for an entire year while you build it up?

Originally Posted by MaDalton (Post 19412129)

look at Crakmedia - they went from 1-2 people in 2007 or 2008 to 60 (or 80?) people today

it's not impossible but they started just with traffic, not production, so the costs were not that big to start out with

Originally Posted by MaDalton (Post 19410462)

if you have traffic it eventually makes sense to send it also to your own sites

if you dont have traffic already, and no big budget for traffic buying, i wouldnt bother

Originally Posted by Xxaru Media (Post 19412147)

But you have to remember that the new guy starting from scratch is not going to have traffic to work with.

Originally Posted by MaDalton (Post 19412129)

look at Crakmedia - they went from 1-2 people in 2007 or 2008 to 60 (or 80?) people today

it's not impossible but they started just with traffic, not production, so the costs were not that big to start out with

Originally Posted by Pseudonymous (Post 19412155)

Isn't the owner related (son/nephew?) to the ex prime minister of canada or something?

I believe he comes from a wealthy family and loans and money in the bank were most likely not an issue.

They also arent in the paysite business and theyre basically just a mainstream company who services adult companies. And offered something somewhat unique.

Not sure its quite related.

Originally Posted by MaDalton (Post 19412159)

Nick started all by himself - as porn webmaster - and I dont think its a matter of heritage

and they do have paysites for their own traffic

Edit: i spoke to Nick the first time in 2008 - and at that time he was still alone (as far as i know)

Originally Posted by Pseudonymous (Post 19412165)

where his money is, is not paysites

and from the paysites i see listed on that site, they were created around the time crakrevenue was created. so its not like he succeeded in paysites and thats what gave him the ability to create crakrevenue.com

also i want to add to it, gf sites are the easiest route in adult to make money. in regards to paysites but even with that said, still not where he made his money to produce a workplace with that many employees

Originally Posted by MaDalton (Post 19412168)

ok - dont get me wrong - i am not argueing that they are a paysite company - thats just a small (but maybe expanding) part of their business

i just named them cause they grew exponantially in the last years - as an example that you can still do it

Originally Posted by Pseudonymous (Post 19412169)

Well course, old companies that made good money and continue investing in adult and expanding their business for sure. You have worked out the kinks, exercised trial and error, gained knowledge for years, met the right people, made money when it was easier, etc etc

Nevermind that, consider other benefits from being in the adult industry early, not only did you make money but the bank you deal with knows this, they see your income, your tax documents show what you earn, all this comes into play when you end up growing another adult business, you can take loans, you can find partnerships, you can find silent investors, etc

And this guy definitely did not invest 50-100k into his business.

Originally Posted by MaDalton (Post 19412171)

i completely agree - hence my first post in the thread: don't bother when you dont have the traffic already

or really deep pockets full of play money that you dont need

Originally Posted by Pseudonymous (Post 19412181)

Yeah but that makes it sound too simple, like if you had some blogs and some tgps , that you should throw up some paysites. You need to be more than just traffic. I'd having the ability to market is one must but its such a small part of the whole picture. Then take into account when they got that traffic, was it at a time when they just threw up a site and it came easily?

I know alot of people here think 10k/day site is big. So people are probably seeing this and thinking, well i have alot of traffic, maybe i should give it a shot.

I'd say 95 percent of affiliates ive met who have traffic couldn't successfully launch a paysite nowadays.

And most people who have traffic, well they could launch their own product but it'll still only be one product of the many you advertise on your website so its not like you having your own traffic is going to be huge, youre only one person. And its not as if you produce enough to completely fill a site, theres hardly any sites dedicated to a single sponsor, let alone site.

But if youre saying, you better atleast have that ability, then sure. heh

Originally Posted by MaDalton (Post 19412184)

sorry, i am just a producer, not an expert on traffic, otherwise my paysites would be way more successful :1orglaugh

but lets make a little calculation for beginners, correct me when i'm wrong:

lets say i have a paysite and in todays times i have heard about conversion ratios of 1:2000 from first page to signup

and lets say i need 10 signups a day to be profitable - not counting rebills and shooting my own content

thats 20,000 to my site and i heard that a CTR of 1% is quite good already so my traffic network would need at least 2 million uniques a day?

Originally Posted by Pseudonymous (Post 19412186)

click through rate is how many click through, so you'd need 2,000,000 impressions, not traffic.

Originally Posted by MaDalton (Post 19412188)

ok, learned something again :thumbsup

still sounds like a lot

Originally Posted by Xxaru Media (Post 19410311)

I?m curious to know how many newbie producers have created member?s site startups that have actually made any money in todays market? And I'm not talking rent money... I mean serious money. I?m talking people who got in the game within like the last couple years.

I ask this question because I?ve been behind 2 different member site startups within the last 3 years and neither of them have had worthwhile returns. I?ve also watched numerous other member site startups crash and burn hard over the last few years. Yeah, there are a plethora of reasons as to why all these sites ?may? not be making serious money, but to me it seems like the market has tanked to the point that the new guys have almost no chance to get in the game and compete against the big dogs.

I hear people all the time considering getting into the biz and starting their own members site, etc. and the only advice I have for them is ?don?t do it? cause the potential for return is no longer worth it. Now I may be wrong, but I welcome anyone that can say otherwise.

Originally Posted by BareBacked (Post 19412198)

the dudes with the .xxx domain names have been killing it
great idea with the content etc

Originally Posted by Pseudonymous (Post 19412181)

I'd say 95 percent of affiliates ive met who have traffic couldn't successfully launch a paysite nowadays.

Originally Posted by Pseudonymous (Post 19412194)

Yeah sorry didn't read your post carefully, but yes impressions and traffic is different, if youre talking about CTR, youre talking about how many see it and click through it.

If your video/content/ad isn't on the front page, your site that contains the traffic would need to more than 2m visitors to give you 2,000,000 impressions

CTR is 'impressions - clicks through'

Example, i have a solo girl affiliate site, i get 25-30k a day in traffic to that one and when i post a new gallery of one of my models, it doesn't get 25-30k impressions because they have to click on the thumb to goto the gallery before the CTR rate comes into effect. Well the CTR to the paysite that is. So what im saying, sometimes you would even need more than 2,000,000 a day to your network.

Originally Posted by MaDalton (Post 19412265)

thanks for the explanation :thumbsup

so i am not so far off with my calculation of traffic to get 10 lousy signups a day?

Originally Posted by scubadiver626 (Post 19412364)

Learn how to sell first. Be a capable earning affiliate, and If you can kick ass, your success potential will be way higher.

Originally Posted by Xxaru Media (Post 19412385)

I still look at the overall numbers. Even if you came in and learned the ropes as an affiliate, you look at the time investment you put into getting to the point where you can carry things over to the building of a pay site. On top of that, you still have to put up a lot of cash, and all for what? You’re looking at a limited return ratio, which could get even worse over time in the industry. I don’t know who in their right mind would want to jump in with those numbers unless you found a way to produce the content for free.

Originally Posted by Webmaster Advertising (Post 19412428)

I do find it interesting that consistently over the past 12 years of being around the industry the entry level to start a new paysite is always $50-$100k whenever a thread like this pops up.

Originally Posted by Pseudonymous (Post 19412438)

I actually said its more than that

Originally Posted by Pseudonymous (Post 19410594)

I dont think thats the 'yeah but' - how about yeah but they came in with an insane budget if they just entered with that many sites with that production value. Their profit margin and success, well you dont even know how theyre doing, theyre clearly spending way more than any other startup though, so what they need to pull in is MUCH MUCH greater.

The second one, the people managing that program have no ties to running any other paysites? Hard to believe.

If you want to come in with a million dollar budget and pay all the right people to get things done, sure. ;) Enough money and the possibilities are endless

I just whois'd the domain and its registered under Gamma Entertainment?

So how are they new? A new program doesn't equal new

I dont think hes asking if a company can launch another site, i believe hes talking about can a producer startup a paysite. Without putting your entire site in somebody elses hands who have done this 20 years

Almost everything is a company opening a new brand nowadays. I wouldn't consider a new brand a new business

Originally Posted by MaDalton (Post 19410554)

yeah - but he knows how to generate signups - and lots of them

Originally Posted by Webmaster Advertising (Post 19412456)

Pure comedy gold :1orglaugh

You really think someone couldnt join the industry today and launch an affiliate program for less than $10k that actually made money?

I'd even go one step further and say they could launch a program for less than $10k and break even in the first 3-6 months.

Originally Posted by Ruseful (Post 19412466)

Gamma simply do the billing for me, thats why the domains are in their name, to conform with V&MC.

For the record, I started with 2 sites back in Aug '11 and then launched new sites as/when the profits from the original sites were there to do so. I didnt start with the $1m budget either, it was considerably smaller :)
We are just launching our 8th site in a couple of weeks and plan to roll out a further 6 exclusive sites this year. I like to run a self sufficient company, quickly as possible.

I get around 90% of my traffic from the tubes and convert it. Its not rocket science how I do it, I even wrote a guide that tells you how I get my traffic. You can check out my brands on YouPorn Channels: http://www.youporn.com/channels/most_popular/alltime/ My brands are #1, 2, 4, 5, 8 and 21 most popular of all time (since records started in 2007). It all in my guide!!

Originally Posted by ReggieDurango (Post 19412472)

Woah, missed that you mentioned erospov.com - yeah I shoot content for the site. (I am obviously biased but) I think the content it alright.. shame that there is so little traffic to a site with quality content :helpme

Originally Posted by Pseudonymous (Post 19412477)

I haven't taken a look at it, probably a good site, just hasn't got too far off the ground yet is all. Maybe it will, maybe it wont, not sure. To be honest, i wasn't judging, just thought i'd mention its current traffic numbers.

Ive seen a couple real good sites in that niche that didn't have a real big budget backing it not take off that well recently

Originally Posted by Pseudonymous (Post 19412476)

1 million was a random large number that i just threw out there. I think the point still remains you need an extremely large budget. ;) I have seen your content. I know for a fact that wasn't on a cheap budget. And before these 2 paysites, what were you doing? Did you hire anybody out the gate?

Originally Posted by Barefootsies (Post 19412099)

I concede your point that someone coming in new is going to have a harder time developing a full blown traditional affiliate program of paysites from ground zero. But at the same time if they have the cash in the coffers, it can be done assuming they have some level of traffic or can generate some.

Second, you over emphasize the need of them having to do an affiliate program, or their value in the adult industry circa 2013. The old affiliate models is dead, and their are few whales out there any more. The business model for driving sign ups has changed. Affiliate programs learned back around 2007 that paying heavy ransoms to affiliates was killing them even before the credit crunch of 2008. It was talked about at conferences and in seminars. Nothing new there.

All of this being said, the bar has been raised for newbies coming in who do not know shit. That I do agree on. But it does not mean it can't be done, and you can't still make a decent living in adult. Someone can easily start out doing a single clip store of original content, develop a following over a period of time, launch a pay site later, and grow it out from there. It would take time, assuming they did it this way versus what you're talking about as the traditional paysite/affiliate model, but it can be done and they can make a decent living doing it.

That does not mean they will be making millions and living like MTV cribs circa 2001. However, we are talking about a decent wage by comparison to the rest of the world. Someone doing what I just described and making $3-5k/month is making more than 99% of GFY posters doing something they love or want to do. It most places in the U.S. that is decent money to live on.

While I agree you make some good points on a newbie coming in, and what it takes to make it. Not everyone coming in is looking to be the next Manwin with a full blow affiliate program and network of sites. Many are just looking for living wage where they can be their own boss and feed their family.

:2 cents:

Originally Posted by Pseudonymous (Post 19412476)

Then there are other things to consider like partners to help decrease startup cost, are you the only one with any ownership rights? i dont expect you to answer that if you dont like and truthfully, i dont know you so i wouldn't really 100 percent believe even if you said you didn't partner up with anybody to keep costs down. not alot of people have that kind of money in their pocket

Originally Posted by Ruseful (Post 19412484)

No partners, just me.