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Dirty F 03-28-2013 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWB (Post 19549598)
They are fiat, which if you want to split hairs could mean the same thing, but saying "virtual" it usually means online. To go a step further, using the USD for example, it is even worse than fiat because it is actually debt. So people who save USD are essentially saving IOU notes. Nothing more. USD savers are losers, literally.

At least bitcoin isn't debt. It may be fiat, but if they can ever work out the illegal use aspect of it so govs and banks won't shut it down, as silly as it sounds, putting money in bitcoins makes more sense than saving US dollars, providing you still have internet access in the morning and a hacker didn't wipe you out while you are sleeping. Short term bitcoin will make a lot of money, no doubt about it. Long term, I just don't see how it will last, because the fact it supposedly is not regulated (even though there will only ever be 21 million of them), is the exact reason banks and governments may want to dispose of it. Looking back through history, anything they can not tax or control, they make illegal.

If the owner of bitcoin had any real long term goals, he would be getting some heavy duty lobbyist in Washington right now to help ensure the survival of it. Otherwise it's a coin toss.

The fact that you think there is an owner tells me you know absolutely nothing about Bitcoins and are talking out of your ass. Because if you read about it for 2 mins you would know there is no owner.

jscott 03-28-2013 10:31 AM

Coinbase is terrible lately, http://www.talkbitcoins.com/talk-bit...-purchases/60/
Can't even buy anymore

DWB 03-28-2013 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mayabong (Post 19549865)
There is no bitcoin owner

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirty F (Post 19549904)
The fact that you think there is an owner tells me you know absolutely nothing about Bitcoins and are talking out of your ass. Because if you read about it for 2 mins you would know there is no owner.

It doesn't matter if someone doesn't "own it." Poor choice of words on my end. It needs to be represented properly or the government will eventually make a move on it. If history teaches you nothing else, it should teach you that.

If that means the collective group of bitcoin exchangers or simply mtgox itself, someone needs to try make sure the government doesn't turn on it, and having a voice in Washington is simply how shit gets done when having to deal with the US government. You can have a long term cyber currency that is useful, like how the tobacco industry does with smoking even though it has been proven to cause cancer, or you can stick your head in the sand and hope nothing bad will ever come to it and lose it all when it does. I personally don't care what happens to BTC, I'm just stating some simple and obvious facts.

BareBacked 03-28-2013 12:16 PM

I want to buy $1000 per day as long as its going up and sell X per day

How can I do it?

mayabong 03-28-2013 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWB (Post 19550297)
It doesn't matter if someone doesn't "own it." Poor choice of words on my end. It needs to be represented properly or the government will eventually make a move on it. If history teaches you nothing else, it should teach you that.

If that means the collective group of bitcoin exchangers or simply mtgox itself, someone needs to try make sure the government doesn't turn on it, and having a voice in Washington is simply how shit gets done when having to deal with the US government. You can have a long term cyber currency that is useful, like how the tobacco industry does with smoking even though it has been proven to cause cancer, or you can stick your head in the sand and hope nothing bad will ever come to it and lose it all when it does. I personally don't care what happens to BTC, I'm just stating some simple and obvious facts.

The only one I know that would support it in the Senate is Rand Paul. He is for competing currencies.

Caligari 03-28-2013 12:29 PM

invest in bitcoin domains

i'm selling bitcoinvideos.com and bitcoinvod.com

pm me for info

MikeRoth 03-28-2013 12:29 PM

Invest in ASIC miners and hope bitcoin price stays high. It will take a few months to break even on the miners but you should be making a steady profit from there. GPU mining will cease to be profitable once ASIC miners flood the market.

DWB 03-28-2013 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mayabong (Post 19550304)
The only one I know that would support it in the Senate is Rand Paul. He is for competing currencies.

It's all about lobbyist. Money makes Washington move.

There should be competing currency even if it would be difficult to maintain. We should all have the right to choose our currency. But that is exactly why some balls need to be cuddled in Washington because it is a competing currency and the Federal Reserve and government doesn't allow that.

Using mtgox for example, they have bank accounts somewhere as they trade dollars for BTC. Those bank accounts can be frozen in a blink of an eye, as can any other exchanger. I would think they would want to do everything possible to make sure that doesn't happen, and since it is a competing currency, and it is being used openly for illegal goods, the odds are currently not in their favor.

Anyway, good luck with it. Hope you make a bunch of money. I'm not getting involved but it's interesting to watch.

dyna mo 03-28-2013 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeRoth (Post 19550314)
Invest in ASIC miners and hope bitcoin price stays high. It will take a few months to break even on the miners but you should be making a steady profit from there. GPU mining will cease to be profitable once ASIC miners flood the market.

how many rigs would you say you need to break even in 3 months? based on the 1st batch of avalon rigs and butterfly rigs are out now and batch 2 *i think* is delivering asap, and batch 3 is the final batch, as i understand that, delivering, what, in 6 more month?.

DWB 03-28-2013 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeRoth (Post 19550314)
Invest in ASIC miners and hope bitcoin price stays high. It will take a few months to break even on the miners but you should be making a steady profit from there. GPU mining will cease to be profitable once ASIC miners flood the market.

I've seen some crazy set ups on Youtube but never seen any real numbers from anyone. On average, how many btc does the average miner mine per 24 hours?

dyna mo 03-28-2013 12:41 PM

looks like avalon is getting the gremlins sorted out, this is from a buyer

Quote:

No contact at all from them yet, just the order confirmation. The website has been updated and now says batch 2 will ship April 15 and batch 3 will ship May 5. But they started shipping batch 1 Jan 30 and they're still working on it so it's anybody's guess. They claim to have figured out a lot of issues and will get the next 2 batches out much more quickly.
batch 3 is done sold out too

dyna mo 03-28-2013 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWB (Post 19550336)
I've seen some crazy set ups on Youtube but never seen any real numbers from anyone. On average, how many btc does the average miner mine per 24 hours?

1. you can see various rigs here https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison

2. select one and snag its hash rate and plug that in here

3. http://www.bitcoinx.com/profit/


4. profit!

pornmasta 03-28-2013 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BareBacked (Post 19549143)
What is the best way to get in?
:2 cents:

http://rlv.zcache.co.uk/lol_face_mem..._8byvr_512.jpg

dyna mo 03-28-2013 12:49 PM

the BIG factor is the fact that the mining rate is directly tied to the mining activity, when the asic rigs really come on line in the coming months, the # of bitcoins mined per rig will drop significantly.

i don't know if i am explaining that right, using the right terms, but i believe that is the gist of what will happen very soon.

Si 03-28-2013 12:57 PM

Has anyone found out what is actually "mined" yet? Just wondering :)

MikeRoth 03-28-2013 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWB (Post 19550336)
I've seen some crazy set ups on Youtube but never seen any real numbers from anyone. On average, how many btc does the average miner mine per 24 hours?

When I first started mining a year ago I was making about 1 bitcoin a day, I believe they were worth about $20 then before it crashed to less than $1. Today with the same GPU I mine 0.01 bitcoins per day.

As far as the average miner it's hard to say. It all depends on how many miners they have and their hardware. Since the difficulty to mine them goes up along with the total hashrate a lot of people were re-investing into additional mining rigs to try and keep a steady flow of bitcoins. Otherwise you'll be mining less and less bitcoins.

CPU mining became obsolete once GPU mining started roaring. Now that ASIC miners are starting to hit after a while GPU mining will become obsolete.

As always the first people to start using new mining technology always make the most money. (One of the first ASIC miners reported making $1,300 in 9 days) Once the market becomes flooded with the new technology profitability drops like a rock.

dyna mo 03-28-2013 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWB (Post 19550336)
I've seen some crazy set ups on Youtube but never seen any real numbers from anyone. On average, how many btc does the average miner mine per 24 hours?

taking my own suggestion, :winkwink:

i plugged in the asic batch #1 rig, at $1299, you make your ducats back in 3 days.

the problem is everyone will get their batch #1 rig at the ~same time, completely changing the current difficulty # dramatically- as i understand it, and i have no idea how to guess what the new # will be. :upsidedow

dyna mo 03-28-2013 01:03 PM

there ya go, Mike has the experience on it, thanks!


looks like this site gives a 14 day out guestimate on the difficulty

http://bitcoindifficulty.com/


so in 14 days there will be a 5% increase in total computing power/economy, which means after the anticipated dip this weekend there should be a super nice uptick in value eh? fair to say??

Serge Litehead 03-28-2013 01:15 PM

no, value is not driven by difficulty

mayabong 03-28-2013 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo (Post 19550329)
how many rigs would you say you need to break even in 3 months? based on the 1st batch of avalon rigs and butterfly rigs are out now and batch 2 *i think* is delivering asap, and batch 3 is the final batch, as i understand that, delivering, what, in 6 more month?.

At the current difficulty, the 60 Gh/s Buttfly labs miner would break even in a few days. You would get around $350 to $400 a day at the current rates.

If you ordered now you wouldn't get your BFL order for many months. By that time the difficulty will be Sky high. You would get way less bitcoins but, that could also be offset by a way higher exchange rate.

Never judge your possible earnings by the mining calculators.

dyna mo 03-28-2013 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by holograph (Post 19550382)
no, value is not driven by difficulty

can you help me understand that? as i understand the basic economy of bitcoins, the value is determined (tied to,even) based on total computational power of all rigs running the bitcoin.exe?

MikeRoth 03-28-2013 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by holograph (Post 19550382)
no, value is not driven by difficulty

It's driven by supply and demand pretty much as well as confidence in the currency. The amount of bitcoins you can mine with a specific hashrate is driven by the difficulty.

L-Pink 03-28-2013 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo (Post 19550390)
can you help me understand that? as i understand the basic economy of bitcoins, the value is determined (tied to,even) based on total computational power of all rigs running the bitcoin.exe?

Value is based on what people are willing to pay.

dyna mo 03-28-2013 01:22 PM

ok, so here's the problem- miners are awarded blocks of 50 bitcoins at a time. as a solo miner, your statistical odds of that, compared to mining groups, is very very low, according to this

Quote:

if you actually want to make Bitcoin (money), you probably need to join a pool. A pool is a group that combines their computing power to make more Bitcoins. The reason you shouldn’t go it alone is that Bitcoins are awarded in blocks, usually 50 at a time, and unless you get extremely lucky, you will not be getting any of those coins. In a pool, you are given smaller and easier algorithms to solve and all of your combined work will make you more likely to solve the bigger algorithm and earn Bitcoins that are spread out throughout the pool based on your contribution. Basically, you will make a more consistent amount of Bitcoins and will be more likely to receive a good return on your investment.
now i did not include the link to this quote because the very next line was a link to the pool he recommends and not sure if that's a good one or not.

nevertheless, the bitcoin calculator states Average generation time for a block (solo)= 53 days.

so the calculator is somewhat misleading as it cannot calculate your chances of hitting that 50 bitcoin block, it simply assumes you do every x# days. ( i had 53 in here since i had that plugged in at the time)


perhaps others can clarify. :)

dyna mo 03-28-2013 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L-Pink (Post 19550400)
Value is based on what people are willing to pay.

that's correct, but the term i used was *economy*, i wasn't sure if he was referring to that?

dyna mo 03-28-2013 01:29 PM

ok, i see my mistake now. i was looking at that future projections chart wrong. thanks for the headsup!

greg80 03-28-2013 01:37 PM

How can I short bitcoin?

woj 03-28-2013 01:39 PM

this might be a stupid question, but if you break even in 3 days? why even sell it in the first place? why not fill an entire room with these asic rigs and mine 1000s of bitcoins per day yourself?

mayabong 03-28-2013 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woj (Post 19550426)
this might be a stupid question, but if you break even in 3 days? why even sell it in the first place? why not fill an entire room with these asic rigs and mine 1000s of bitcoins per day yourself?

http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/eng...ic-based-miner

MikeRoth 03-28-2013 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woj (Post 19550426)
this might be a stupid question, but if you break even in 3 days? why even sell it in the first place? why not fill an entire room with these asic rigs and mine 1000s of bitcoins per day yourself?

You wouldn't be able to break even on them in 3 days. Maybe the very first ASIC miner did.

The difficulty is already shooting up as more and more ASIC miners come online. The only company that I know of that has them available and has started shipping them in small batches still has a backorder and a wait of 1+ months to get one if you ordered now. Another company butterfly labs hasn't even begun shipping them yet and even if you ordered one now you wouldn't receive it for 2-3 months or more. In the meantime while your waiting for one the difficulty will continue to increase from people who already have ASIC miners from ordering from the earlier batches.

There is no way to really tell what the difficulty and profitability will be 2-3 months from now. But let's pretend like you got your 60Ghash/sec ASIC miner today. You would probably be able to mine ~3.9 bitcoins a day. So lets call it $351/day. In 2-3 months the market will be flooded with ASIC miners causing the difficulty to sky rocket. Would the difficulty double, triple, or quadruple in 3 months time? Who knows. But that would knock your potential profitability down dramatically. And that is assuming bitcoins stay at ~$90 per coin.

dyna mo 03-28-2013 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L-Pink (Post 19550400)
Value is based on what people are willing to pay.

i'm going to throw myself on my sword re: my comment, lemme know if it flies or dies!

ok, the total computational power is related to the creation of bitcoins. so i looked at it like the dollar, the treasury creates more dollars and that impacts the value of the dollar right?

so wouldn't the # of bitcoins mined over a certain period of time do the same thing to bitcoin value?

:upsidedow

dyna mo 03-28-2013 03:20 PM

i know i must be having a major brain fart on this, i do have something else pressing on my mind right now.
lol

MikeRoth 03-28-2013 03:37 PM

There will only ever be 21,000,000 bitcoins. Once the 21 million are mined that is it. It's not like the U.S. Government which just creates more "money" willy nilly to pretend the economy is doing better.

The total computational power is only related to the difficulty which is used to control the amount of bitcoins mined. This prevents all 21 million bitcoins from being mined in a short period of time.

Also the amount of bitcoins per block halves every 4 years. "Blocks are mined every 10 minutes, on average and for the first four years (210,000 blocks) each block included 50 new bitcoins. As the amount of processing power directed at mining changes, the difficulty of creating new bitcoins changes. This difficulty factor is calculated every 2016 blocks and is based upon the time taken to generate the previous 2016 blocks"

Paul 03-29-2013 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeRoth (Post 19550624)
There will only ever be 21,000,000 bitcoins. Once the 21 million are mined that is it. It's not like the U.S. Government which just creates more "money" willy nilly to pretend the economy is doing better.

The total computational power is only related to the difficulty which is used to control the amount of bitcoins mined. This prevents all 21 million bitcoins from being mined in a short period of time.

Also the amount of bitcoins per block halves every 4 years. "Blocks are mined every 10 minutes, on average and for the first four years (210,000 blocks) each block included 50 new bitcoins. As the amount of processing power directed at mining changes, the difficulty of creating new bitcoins changes. This difficulty factor is calculated every 2016 blocks and is based upon the time taken to generate the previous 2016 blocks"

What will happen once all the bitcoins are mined? Will the price then go up and down based on speculation or demand a bit like gold?

MrMaxwell 03-29-2013 12:49 AM

Wow I had no idea that only 1/3-1/2 of them exist at this point
http://blockexplorer.com/q/totalbc


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