fitty pissed off posters :upsidedow

I guess its normal in your world for 14 year olds to say they were sexually assaulted in front of Congress when people get divorced. :1orglaugh

Do you ever listen to yourself?

I have to have some fun somewhere, ok, back to work on my new office

And where is the proof? Collaborating evidence? Anything?
Never believe anything you hear, only half of what you see.

You're retarded

That's right, I'm retarded because you believe Congressional testimony is over a custody battle.

:1orglaugh:helpme:1orglaugh

But were they serving multiple warrants at a day care center or a compound with one hundred armed men?

This wasn't kindergarten, this wasn't Disneyland. This was the police conducting a raid on a compound full of men armed with assault rifles?

They weren't after only Koresh; They had search warrants. They had a legal reason to go in. Period. That's not even open to debate.

And... What?

This is what I don't get about you - you make dumb statements that make no sense and have little to do with anything at all.

Yes, they rolled up in personal vehicles. Not every law enforcement officer has their own vehicle. Maybe they decided their government issue vehicles were unsuitable for the task at hand; Maybe they thought they needed trucks.

No, I never said that. I never said that at all.

This group of people shot and killed police officers, putting children at risk. They refused to allow their children to leave, which continued keeping their children at risk. At a certain point of time law enforcement is required to act; This was costing the tax payers a million dollars a week. This stand off last months; The law enforcement was in hurry to move in. It was only after it was approved by the president that they moved in.

Brett, you are defending cop killers here. They killed four police offices and shot sixteen others.

I just lost all respect for you.

Setting aside four dead police officers, Koresh was married to his wife and also married to a 13 year old girl? Another girl, Kiri Jewell, testified in Congress that she was molested by Koresh from age 10 on.....

Thanks Obama...

both groups of people ended up dead.

What proof? Well, we have the testimony of multiple under aged girls saying they were molested starting at age ten and going on for years. In fact, they testified in front of Congress too.

What more proof do you need?

Your gun nut friends will bang the war drum over this issue until they are out of breath. "Big bad government didn't like private citizens having their constitutionally protected firearms" is what they'll tell you. Bit the truth is much more than that - Police had ample reason to believe multiple crimes had taken place, and when they went in to investigate law enforcement officers were shot and killed.

Branch Davidians initiated a gun battle when they fired at federal officers who were attempting to serve lawful warrants. Multiple lawsuits after the fact resulted in use of tear gas was found "not negligent".

I really don't give a shit what was going on in that compound, the ATF and FBI fucked up and 23 children died. All for a bigger budget? Good Media?


http://www.davekopel.com/waco/lawrev/warrant.htm

A BATF memo written two days before the February 28, 1993 raid explained "this operation will generate considerable media attention, both locally [Texas] and nationally." [14] The BATF public relations director, Sharon Wheeler, called reporters to ask them for their weekend phone numbers. The reporters contend, and Wheeler denies, that she asked them if they would be interested in covering a weapons raid on a "cult." Wheeler, on the other hand, states that she merely told them, "We have something going down." [15] After the raid, the BATF at first denied there had been any media contacts. [16] Journalist Ronald Kessler reports that the BATF told eleven media outlets that the raid was coming. [17] The Department of the Treasury has refused to release the pre-raid memos which deal with publicity, asserting that they are exempt from the Freedom of Information Act. [18]

In any case, the BATF's public relations officer was stationed in Waco on the day of the raid ready to issue a press release announcing the raid's success. [19] A much-publicized raid, resulting in the seizure of hundreds of guns and dozens of "cultists" might reasonably be expected to improve the fortunes of BATF Director, Stephen Higgins, who was scheduled to testify before the U.S. Senate Appropriations Subcommittee on Treasury, Postal Service, and General Government on March 10, 1993. Investigative reporter Carol Vinzant wrote:

*5 In the jargon of at least one ATF office, the Waco raid was what is known as a ZBO ("Zee Big One"), a press-drawing stunt that when shown to Congress at budget time justifies more funding. One of the largest deployments in bureau history, the attack on the Branch Davidians compound was, in the eyes of some of the agents, the ultimate ZBO. [20]

60 Minutes rebroadcast the BATF segment a few months later. Host Mike Wallace opined that almost all the agents he talked to said that they believe the initial attack on that cult in Waco was a publicity stunt--the main goal of which was to improve ATF's tarnished image. [21] The codeword for the beginning of the BATF raid was "showtime."





I feel sorry for those that think that the ends justify the means in this, 23 childred dead!

a conviction?

all those molested children.. how many of their mothers are dead?

These threads are always full of emotion being paraded as facts.

So you are okay with ten year old girls getting raped and molested and police officers being shot dead for serving a lawful warrant?

And again with more dumb bullshit....

There was an entire newspaper series on the child molestation charges, and they were going to serve a warrant on a compound that had over a hundred well armed men. Of course they had publicity officer there.

This is stunning Brett. If there is a newspaper series - multiple articles - written in the local newspaper about a house down the street from you molesting ten year old girls, wouldn't you DEMAND the police investigate?

.. and did they?

where is the convictions?

So when some kids get abused it's ok to gas 23 children?

Investigate, sure, I'm all for that, what I am against is retards thinking it's ok to gas children. Listen to Sonny.

You are putting a few kids that were abused above those that were killed by idiots with badges!

You're trying so hard to prove a point they needed to go in there that you are not seeing what I have said here in the OP. They did it wrong, 23 children DEAD

Gassing children is wrong. Any doctor will tell you that.

You said you lost respect for me because I said you are a piece of shit ?
Get a copy of hooked on phonics, that was a reply to Potter

The compound 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile (also called o-chlorobenzylidene malononitrile) (chemical formula: C10H5ClN2), a cyanocarbon, is the defining component of "tear gas".


Use of CS teat gas in war is prohibited under the terms of the 1997 Chemical Weapons Convention, signed by most nations in 1993.

this is the point of the op. it's ok for usa to use cs gas on its own children, but not ok for syria to use a chemical weapon on its children.

This guy calls other people stupid.

Thank You, I just read that.
It does go into usage in riots, but that wouldn't be the case here, they we not rioting, they were held up in a building. And no where did I see it described as a riot.
I need to get out of this thread, I can't believer the trolls here that think that gassing kids is ok, but then, Suckonthis said shit about my kid that would get his head removed in person.

How do you not get this?

1) Police investigate multiple accusations, including child molestation, stemming from multiple sources including a series of articles in a local newspaper.
2) Police secure multiple warrants.
3) Police officers are shot and killed serving warrants.
4) After a three month stand off and tens of millions of dollars, police move in using commonly practiced police tactics including tear gas.

The children died because their parents started a gun battle with law enforcement.

They were molesting little girls and killing police officers. Police used tear gas to flush them out.

No doubt he suffers from some type of mental disorder.

First he spends his day defending grown men masturbating in public
https://gfy.com/showthread.php?t=1119296

and now defends a Jesus freak that molests kids.

The FBI hot boxed a building with CS gas and 23 children died as a result, you're an asshole!

FBI used tear gas against a group of men who had killed police officers.

So you are saying the FBI didn't know about the children?

They weren't police officers, they were ATF agents grandstanding to make a big bust and it back fired.

It's very cute how you put words in my mouth. I never said that. At all.

After killing four cops and a three month stand off, law enforcement used a very common police method of ending the stand off - with CS gas. There is no debate if this is considered legal or proper; Twenty years later it's still ROUTINE in such cases.

Multiple lawsuits were filed after the stand off ended, and all of them were dismissed. It's common sense Brett - You open fire on police, and eventually they will use tear has to arrest you.

Police, Sheriff, ATF, FBI... All law enforcement. (In fact, the Texas National Guard was called in also.)

They weren't grandstanding at all. ATF didn't say "We need more money so we need to make a big bust". This didn't start with the ATF. This started with the local Sheriff who needed help because they had more armed people at the compound then the entire local Sheriff had in it's department.

On top of this Brett, there seems to be little proof that tear gas killed anyone. I mean, it's pretty obvious that a three year old child stabbed in the chest didn't die from tear gas, right?

Brett, these people were nut jobs who molested children, killed police officers, and then killed each other, set fire to their own compound, and died in a blaze of glory.

Please show where else CS gas was used against children in a closed building

the police didn't arrest those kids, they killed them
The local sheriff had nothing to do with the raid, he had already seen all the weapons, Koresh showed them to him and noted that Koresh had the only key. They should have arrested him while he was out of the building, as he ventured outside the walls all the time
Did you know that they used more CS gas in Waco than any other place in the nations history?
If breathed in a confined space, where one must inhale CS into the lungs if one is to inhale air into the lungs, the edema and capillary leakage will cause pneumonia and death. The lack of human volunteers for such death precludes determining the human lethal dose by experimentation. Among test animals, it has been shown to vary widely. Guinea pigs die at half the dose necessary to kill rats or rabbits
http://www.hardylaw.net/CS.html

So kill them all right?

How did they kill the kids?

Using tactics like they did on a group that thought the world was coming to an end, people that were preparing for it.
Those morons knew that the Branch Davidians were never going to give up, if they didn't after 51 days, they were really fucking stupid, so they used CS gas in a closed space. More CS gas than any other instance in US history.
People with that mind set are not going to give up when their compound is surrounded, there are tanks punching holes in the walls and more than enough CS gas to kill people is being pumped in.
The FBI and ATF declared war on them using tactics that are used in WAR, not serving a warrant.

Most believe the first shot that night was an ATF agent killing a dog!

Koresh had the only key to all the weapons, this is documented. They should have picked up Koresh when he ventured outside the complex, which he did and that is also documented. No one would have had a gun after that. Those kids would still be alive.

The ATF was hoping for a big bust to boost their media attention.



Rochard thinks it's ok because of the allegations of what was going on inside, seems he has forgotten about the whole innocent before found guilty thing we are guaranteed in this country.

Those ATF murdered those children, two of the ATF agents were fired, later to be let back on at a lower rank. They should have been put in prison.

Vendzilla believes they stabbed them in the chest with knives.

How about answering my question. What was the cause of death?

You are right Brett. The next time police serve a warrant on child molestation, and they shoot police officers, police should just back away.

Just remember, the molestation didn't really happen because the girl that testified before Congress was actually lying due to a custody case.

Sure sure Brett, they stabbed them all.

You are telling us that the ATF wanted to make a big bust to get "more money from Congress". The truth is this didn't start with the ATF, it started with the local Sheriff. The local Sheriff was unable to investigate because they couldn't serve a warrant on a house with one hundred armed people in it.

Didn't know, not caring. It was a large compound, and there was over hundred people in it. So it makes sense they would use more tear gas than the in the average house.

Gee, I breathed in tear gas in a confined space and I seem fine.

The intention wasn't to kill anyone Brett. Tear gas is used to disable people and force them to submit. This is still a commonly used practice by law enforcement.

Brett, these people were accused of molesting little girls and then shot and killed police officers. You are accusing police of killing children, while there is proof that they were murdered before hand - including a three year old that was stabbed in the chest.

Fuck it, ok Richard. Next time they kill a bunch of people, I'm sure they will find proof it was ok to do so.

Guilty until proven innocent, until then, gas the children. We can cover it up later.

Your right. You are one hundred percent right. Let them shoot all the cops they want.

So if people come at your house in civilian vehicles wearing black tac gear and carrying assault weapons, you are going to just let them come in?

Let's just agree to disagree
You think they did it the right way

I don't

I think they should have served the warrant as it was written in person to arrest Koresh when he was outside of the compound, knowing he had the only key to the weapons because of a previous inspection from the local police. Problem adverted.

Your way

At least those dead kids won't be abused anymore.




Those cops went in looking for a fight, they can't whine for finding one!

Yes.

I'm pretty confident they were all wearing shirts and vests saying "ATF" and had badges. I am also pretty confident they identified themselves.

Do I think they did it the right way? They were serving multiple warrants, including both search warrants and arrest warrants, and they knew there was over one hundred people at the compound. When local police serve an arrest warrant on one person they bring ten officers; They need to secure the parameter of the house to make sure no one escapes, they have to have people on hand to control anyone in the house, and they have to have people on hand to physically conduct the search.

So what exactly did they do wrong when they served the warrants? Did they not identify themselves? Did they not have on clothes that identified themselves? Did they not say they have a search warrant? Did they not knock?

It wasn't one warrant - it was multiple warrants for multiple reasons.

They could have arrested Koresh, but shortly after that they would still have to visit the compound to verify anything Koresh told them. So the end result would have been the same - police serving a search warrant on the compound.

The only one whining is you.

The cops didn't go looking for a fight, but I do believe they expected one. When you conduct a search warrant on a compound with over 100 people in it and four times that amount of weapons, well, you have to go in prepared.

The fact of the matter is that the parents murdered their kids by not leaving the compound before it burned to the ground.

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

that's right. it was the kids fault! :1orglaugh

Wtf?????

Of course not. It's clearly the fault of the police who set fire in three different locations and stabbed three year olds.

They didn't follow the rules

WASHINGTON - Officials involved in the deadly Feb. 28 raid on a Texas cult botched the job and were less than truthful about their actions later, Treasury Secretary Lloyd Bentsen said today. He replaced the head of the agency responsible and suspended five subordinates.

Armed with the results of a probe into the raid, Bentsen said the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms had lost the element of surprise in its attempt to seize David Koresh and enter his Branch Davidian compound. Officials should have called off the raid, Bentsen said.

Four ATF agents died in the raid, along with six cult members. It was the opening act in a drama that led to a 51-day standoff between the FBI and Koresh and his followers and ended with an inferno in which as many as 85 cult members died.

"Numerous officials were less than truthful about the facts," Bentsen said.

Bentsen said he was immediately replacing ATF Director Stephen Higgins with John Magaw, the director of the Secret Service. Magaw will serve as acting director in place of Higgins, who announced Monday he planned to retire Oct. 30.

The secretary placed five top ATF officials on administrative leave: Daniel Hartnett, associate director of law enforcement; Edward Conroy, deputy associate director; David Troy, chief of ATF intelligence; and the two Houston-based agents who led the raid near Waco.

Bentsen made public a 220-page Treasury Department report that faulted ATF for making plans for the operation that were "based on seriously flawed assumptions" about the cult and its leader.

The field commanders, who were suspended, "erred by failing to abort the mission" as soon as they learned that Koresh had been warned, Bentsen said.

"ATF did not adequately explore the possibility of arresting David Koresh away from the compound," Bentsen said.

Instead, ATF officials devised a high-risk strategy to catch cult members by surprise, the report said.

Bentsen said further action would be taken in a number of personnel cases.

Bentsen said Higgins had "assured Treasury that the raid would not proceed if . . . surprise was lost."

Asked why Charles Sarabyn, one of the two field commanders, went ahead with raid anyway, Bentsen said: "I don't know what went on in the man's mind when he made the decision" that was "in absolute violation of the instructions."

ATF agents blamed the loss of surprise for the raid's failure.

The report also found that ATF officials and agents made misleading and inaccurate public statements. Higgins, too, made such statements, but they were based on inaccurate information from subordinates, the report concluded.

The report found that the planning document that was required for the raid was not written until five days after the raid. It was later altered by Sarabyn and Phillip Chojancki after the Texas Rangers requested a copy. The report said the planning document was rewritten by the two field commanders "in a concerted effort to conceal their errors in judgment."

And you don't think the parents had a duty to remove their minor children from a volatile situation?

You want to know who killed kids, read this

On April 10, 2001, The Cato Institute released its critique titled, "No Confidence: An Unofficial Account of the Waco Incident," Policy Analysis no. 395, of the official whitewash. ATF agents that lied to federal investigators, beat a local camera man and were never prosecuted. The FBI showed a gross disregard for human life by firing ferret rounds at the compound and using tanks to ram its walls. Since one child was struck and killed by an FBI ferret round Cato concludes "second degree murder charges may be appropriate" against the FBI agent involved. The involvement as supervisors at Waco of FBI personnel suspended for lying and destroying evidence at Ruby Ridge should have alerted Danforth that he needed to do a professional job, but he ignored those red flags. No attempt was made by Danforth to investigate why there was so much evidence missing at Waco. Cato concludes - "the Waco incident will leave an odius precedent that federal agents can use the 'color of their office' to commit crimes against citizens."

They were letting children out of the compound.

Maybe they stopped that after one of the kids was killed by a ferret round according the the Cato Institute.

Those parents inside were brain washed
The ATF on the outside is suppose to prevent loss of life, not gas children

this compound.. i bet there is a Big Metal Gate.. right?

I bet.. that metal gate.. only has bullet holes on ONE side of of the gate.. the outside.. you look into that at all?

Before or after they stabbed the three year old in the chest?

Read this
http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/f.../pdf/pa395.pdf

Read under May 23rd, 1993

Almost all the ATF agents that he talked to said that they believed the initial raid on the Branch Davidians in Waco "Was a publicity stunt, the main goal of which was to improve the ATF's tarnished Image"

no bullet holes in the cars outside the complex, a door had been removed that would have been evidence.
That PDF has all the info on it, like Janet Reno saying they are beating young children when she had no proof!
She offered to resign over this, but Clinton didn't let her.

After the FBI agent fired a ferret round into a child

You should know this Richard

Feburary 26th, 1994, the jury returns it's verdict in the criminal case. Eleven Branch Davidians are acquitted of all conspiracy charges. Seven of the 11 are convicted of lesser charges and 4 are aquitted of all charges.
The New York times reports that "The jury's verdict amounted to a sunning defeat not only for the justice department, which prosecuted the case, but for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms