It appears that you may be wrong.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/blwacoguns.htm

:thumbsup:thumbsup

incredible all that survived the fire.

I think the other GFYers who have been reading your posts over the years would respectfully disagree.

Hey shit for brains
No evidence of child abuse was ever found you ignorant fuck

Another tactic the federal government used to demonize the Davidians was to accuse them of child abuse. These accusations originally arose from Marc Breault, a former follower of Koresh who had a bitter falling out with him. Breault quit the sect at the end of 1989 and moved to Australia. He then threw himself into a campaign to discredit his former mentor, in the process leading away most of the Australian members of the sect.

In March 1990 Breault, his wife and a number of his Australian followers swore out more than 30 pages of affidavits claiming that Koresh was abusing children. A second set of affidavits was sworn out for use in a child custody hearing in early 1992, in which a Michigan man named David Jewell petitioned to gain custody of his daughter, then living at Mt. Carmel with Jewell's ex-wife. However, the allegations were mostly general and lacking in detail [48] .

Thus the allegations of child abuse sprung from two sources: (1) a man who hated Koresh and was obsessed with discrediting him; and (2) a child-custody dispute. Note that allegations of child abuse are a common tactic in child-custody disputes.

As a result of Breault's efforts, local authorities began an investigation of the child abuse charges. Officials of the Child Protective Services division of the Texas Department of Protective and Regulatory Services, and the McLennan County sheriff's office, visited Mt. Carmel in February and March 1992. They found no evidence of child abuse [46] .

On April 23, 1993, in response to the Clinton administration's continued claims of child abuse, the Texas Department of Protective and Regulatory Services offered the following summary of its nine-week investigation: "None of the allegations could be verified. The children denied being abused in any way by any adults in the compound. They denied any knowledge of other children being abused. The adults consistently denied participation in or knowledge of any abuse to children. Examinations of the children produced no indication of current or previous injuries." Texas child protection officials also said they received no further abuse allegations after that time [48] .

Breault had also contacted the FBI, accusing Koresh of a number of other crimes besides child abuse. A February 23, 1993 FBI memo, obtained by the Dallas Morning News, stated that no information had been developed to verify the allegations of "child abuse and neglect, tax evasion, slavery and reports of possible mass destruction."

The Clinton administration alleged that the Davidians were abusing children during the siege of Mt. Carmel. This was contradicted by those who actually saw the children. During the siege a man named Louis Alaniz managed to sneak past federal officials to visit the Davidians (he was not a Davidian himself). After leaving, he reported that the children at Mt. Carmel appeared happy, playing and laughing continuously, and that there were no outward signs of child abuse [44] .

Sheriff Jack Harwell, who was the only outside negotiator brought into the Mount Carmel siege, said there was never any proof that children were being abused inside the compound. None of the children who were released from the compound, Harwell said, showed any signs of physical abuse [45] .

According to Texas child protective services officials, none of the 21 children released to the authorities showed signs of abuse, and none of them confirmed that any abuse was committed. The children were physically and psychologically examined [45] , [47] . Dr. Bruce Perry, the head of the team treating the children, stated flatly: "(N)one of the 21 children had been sexually abused or molested." [69]

After the blaze that killed most of the Davidians, the Clinton administration stepped up its "child abuse" offensive. White House communications director George Stephanopoulos claimed that "there was overwhelming evidence of child abuse in the Waco compound." [39] But this claim was contradicted by others within the federal government itself.

FBI director William Sessions said his agency had "no contemporaneous evidence" of child abuse in the compound during the siege [48] . "(T)here had been no recent reports of the beating of children." In response to Janet Reno's claim of reports that "babies were being beaten," Sessions said, "I do not know what the attorney general was referring to specifically." [37]

The Justice Department itself put the lie to Clinton's and Reno's wild accusations. In a report released in early October, the Justice Department said there was no evidence of child abuse at the compound during the siege or even enough evidence to arrest Koresh on such charges before the February 28 raid [5]

:2 cents::1orglaugh:1orglaugh

Texas gun laws are different from the rest of the US, they can own machine guns

The press and the federal government made much of the Davidians' collection of guns. President Clinton claimed the Davidians had "illegally stockpiled weaponry and ammunition." [1] But there is no law limiting the number of legal weapons one may accumulate. Furthermore, by Texas standards the Davidians' gun collection was rather small. After the siege investigators found only 200 firearms in the ruins of Mt. Carmel [57] , which amounts to about two guns per adult. But Texas' 17 million residents own a total of 68 million guns, for an average of four guns apiece, while 16,600 Texans legally own machine guns [33] .

The government also claimed that the Davidians were planning an assault on Waco. This claim was based on third-hand information related to ATF Special Agent Davy Aguilera, who filed the affidavit for the original raid on Mt. Carmel. Aguilera had interviewed ATF Special Agent Carlos Torres, who had interviewed Joyce Sparks, an investigator with the Texas Department of Human Services. According to Aguilera's affidavit, Torres told Aguilera that Sparks had told him that Koresh had told her "that he was the `Messenger' from God, that the world was coming to an end, and that when he `reveals' himself the riots in Los Angeles would pale in comparison to what was going to happen in Waco, Texas." Furthermore, this self-revelation "would be a `military type operation' and... all the `non-believers' would have to suffer." Koresh supposedly said this on Sparks' second and final visit to Mt. Carmel to investigate child-abuse charges, on April 6, 1992 [63] . But the LA riots broke out on April 29, more than three weeks after Sparks last visited Koresh!

http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/waco.horn.html#T51

Importantly, this was not a no-knock search warrant, in which agents may knock down doors and burst in heavily armed without prior warning to occupants; such warrants must be specifically applied for, which the ATF failed to do [53] . Nor was a no-knock approach necessary. As we have seen, Koresh and his followers had peacefully cooperated with law enforcement officers on at least three occasions in the past (once after the Roden gunfight, twice during the child-abuse investigation). And in July 1992 Koresh had actually invited ATF investigators to come out to Mt. Carmel and inspect the Davidians' guns [4] , [6] , [55] , but he was angrily told "we don't want to do it that way." [6]

Furthermore, the ATF knew that nearly all the guns at Mt. Carmel were locked up and only Koresh had a key [63] . To avoid any possibility of armed resistance from the Davidians, they could have simply detained Koresh during one of his frequent excursions outside of Mt. Carmel [18] , [29] and had him unlock the store of guns in their presence.

Sorry, but anyone that thinks gassing children in a closed room is ok, is pretty fucked up in the head. There is a lot of proof as to the incompetence of the FBI and the ATF out there, for those that can Google it. Coming from good sources.

They knew there was kids in there, the warrant did not allow them to do a seige, it was a general warrant. the guns they had on the compound, the ATF had inspected at an earlier time and knew they were legal in the state of Texas.

There was never any proof of child abuse except for the FBI using CS gas on them

Sure, and this 14 year old was a CIA plant.

Girl Tells Of Molestation By Koresh

Now please stick to topics you know about, like public masturbation.

She was part of a custody fight, ever been to one of those? People get their kids to lie all the time.

Where are the other girls she talks about coming forward?

fitty pissed off posters :upsidedow

I guess its normal in your world for 14 year olds to say they were sexually assaulted in front of Congress when people get divorced. :1orglaugh

Do you ever listen to yourself?

I have to have some fun somewhere, ok, back to work on my new office

And where is the proof? Collaborating evidence? Anything?
Never believe anything you hear, only half of what you see.

You're retarded

That's right, I'm retarded because you believe Congressional testimony is over a custody battle.

:1orglaugh:helpme:1orglaugh

But were they serving multiple warrants at a day care center or a compound with one hundred armed men?

This wasn't kindergarten, this wasn't Disneyland. This was the police conducting a raid on a compound full of men armed with assault rifles?

They weren't after only Koresh; They had search warrants. They had a legal reason to go in. Period. That's not even open to debate.

And... What?

This is what I don't get about you - you make dumb statements that make no sense and have little to do with anything at all.

Yes, they rolled up in personal vehicles. Not every law enforcement officer has their own vehicle. Maybe they decided their government issue vehicles were unsuitable for the task at hand; Maybe they thought they needed trucks.

No, I never said that. I never said that at all.

This group of people shot and killed police officers, putting children at risk. They refused to allow their children to leave, which continued keeping their children at risk. At a certain point of time law enforcement is required to act; This was costing the tax payers a million dollars a week. This stand off last months; The law enforcement was in hurry to move in. It was only after it was approved by the president that they moved in.

Brett, you are defending cop killers here. They killed four police offices and shot sixteen others.

I just lost all respect for you.

Setting aside four dead police officers, Koresh was married to his wife and also married to a 13 year old girl? Another girl, Kiri Jewell, testified in Congress that she was molested by Koresh from age 10 on.....

Thanks Obama...

both groups of people ended up dead.

What proof? Well, we have the testimony of multiple under aged girls saying they were molested starting at age ten and going on for years. In fact, they testified in front of Congress too.

What more proof do you need?

Your gun nut friends will bang the war drum over this issue until they are out of breath. "Big bad government didn't like private citizens having their constitutionally protected firearms" is what they'll tell you. Bit the truth is much more than that - Police had ample reason to believe multiple crimes had taken place, and when they went in to investigate law enforcement officers were shot and killed.

Branch Davidians initiated a gun battle when they fired at federal officers who were attempting to serve lawful warrants. Multiple lawsuits after the fact resulted in use of tear gas was found "not negligent".

I really don't give a shit what was going on in that compound, the ATF and FBI fucked up and 23 children died. All for a bigger budget? Good Media?


http://www.davekopel.com/waco/lawrev/warrant.htm

A BATF memo written two days before the February 28, 1993 raid explained "this operation will generate considerable media attention, both locally [Texas] and nationally." [14] The BATF public relations director, Sharon Wheeler, called reporters to ask them for their weekend phone numbers. The reporters contend, and Wheeler denies, that she asked them if they would be interested in covering a weapons raid on a "cult." Wheeler, on the other hand, states that she merely told them, "We have something going down." [15] After the raid, the BATF at first denied there had been any media contacts. [16] Journalist Ronald Kessler reports that the BATF told eleven media outlets that the raid was coming. [17] The Department of the Treasury has refused to release the pre-raid memos which deal with publicity, asserting that they are exempt from the Freedom of Information Act. [18]

In any case, the BATF's public relations officer was stationed in Waco on the day of the raid ready to issue a press release announcing the raid's success. [19] A much-publicized raid, resulting in the seizure of hundreds of guns and dozens of "cultists" might reasonably be expected to improve the fortunes of BATF Director, Stephen Higgins, who was scheduled to testify before the U.S. Senate Appropriations Subcommittee on Treasury, Postal Service, and General Government on March 10, 1993. Investigative reporter Carol Vinzant wrote:

*5 In the jargon of at least one ATF office, the Waco raid was what is known as a ZBO ("Zee Big One"), a press-drawing stunt that when shown to Congress at budget time justifies more funding. One of the largest deployments in bureau history, the attack on the Branch Davidians compound was, in the eyes of some of the agents, the ultimate ZBO. [20]

60 Minutes rebroadcast the BATF segment a few months later. Host Mike Wallace opined that almost all the agents he talked to said that they believe the initial attack on that cult in Waco was a publicity stunt--the main goal of which was to improve ATF's tarnished image. [21] The codeword for the beginning of the BATF raid was "showtime."





I feel sorry for those that think that the ends justify the means in this, 23 childred dead!

a conviction?

all those molested children.. how many of their mothers are dead?

These threads are always full of emotion being paraded as facts.

So you are okay with ten year old girls getting raped and molested and police officers being shot dead for serving a lawful warrant?

And again with more dumb bullshit....

There was an entire newspaper series on the child molestation charges, and they were going to serve a warrant on a compound that had over a hundred well armed men. Of course they had publicity officer there.

This is stunning Brett. If there is a newspaper series - multiple articles - written in the local newspaper about a house down the street from you molesting ten year old girls, wouldn't you DEMAND the police investigate?

.. and did they?

where is the convictions?

So when some kids get abused it's ok to gas 23 children?

Investigate, sure, I'm all for that, what I am against is retards thinking it's ok to gas children. Listen to Sonny.

You are putting a few kids that were abused above those that were killed by idiots with badges!

You're trying so hard to prove a point they needed to go in there that you are not seeing what I have said here in the OP. They did it wrong, 23 children DEAD

Gassing children is wrong. Any doctor will tell you that.

You said you lost respect for me because I said you are a piece of shit ?
Get a copy of hooked on phonics, that was a reply to Potter

The compound 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile (also called o-chlorobenzylidene malononitrile) (chemical formula: C10H5ClN2), a cyanocarbon, is the defining component of "tear gas".


Use of CS teat gas in war is prohibited under the terms of the 1997 Chemical Weapons Convention, signed by most nations in 1993.

this is the point of the op. it's ok for usa to use cs gas on its own children, but not ok for syria to use a chemical weapon on its children.

This guy calls other people stupid.

Thank You, I just read that.
It does go into usage in riots, but that wouldn't be the case here, they we not rioting, they were held up in a building. And no where did I see it described as a riot.
I need to get out of this thread, I can't believer the trolls here that think that gassing kids is ok, but then, Suckonthis said shit about my kid that would get his head removed in person.

How do you not get this?

1) Police investigate multiple accusations, including child molestation, stemming from multiple sources including a series of articles in a local newspaper.
2) Police secure multiple warrants.
3) Police officers are shot and killed serving warrants.
4) After a three month stand off and tens of millions of dollars, police move in using commonly practiced police tactics including tear gas.

The children died because their parents started a gun battle with law enforcement.

They were molesting little girls and killing police officers. Police used tear gas to flush them out.

No doubt he suffers from some type of mental disorder.

First he spends his day defending grown men masturbating in public
https://gfy.com/showthread.php?t=1119296

and now defends a Jesus freak that molests kids.

The FBI hot boxed a building with CS gas and 23 children died as a result, you're an asshole!

FBI used tear gas against a group of men who had killed police officers.

So you are saying the FBI didn't know about the children?

They weren't police officers, they were ATF agents grandstanding to make a big bust and it back fired.

It's very cute how you put words in my mouth. I never said that. At all.

After killing four cops and a three month stand off, law enforcement used a very common police method of ending the stand off - with CS gas. There is no debate if this is considered legal or proper; Twenty years later it's still ROUTINE in such cases.

Multiple lawsuits were filed after the stand off ended, and all of them were dismissed. It's common sense Brett - You open fire on police, and eventually they will use tear has to arrest you.

Police, Sheriff, ATF, FBI... All law enforcement. (In fact, the Texas National Guard was called in also.)

They weren't grandstanding at all. ATF didn't say "We need more money so we need to make a big bust". This didn't start with the ATF. This started with the local Sheriff who needed help because they had more armed people at the compound then the entire local Sheriff had in it's department.

On top of this Brett, there seems to be little proof that tear gas killed anyone. I mean, it's pretty obvious that a three year old child stabbed in the chest didn't die from tear gas, right?

Brett, these people were nut jobs who molested children, killed police officers, and then killed each other, set fire to their own compound, and died in a blaze of glory.

Please show where else CS gas was used against children in a closed building

the police didn't arrest those kids, they killed them
The local sheriff had nothing to do with the raid, he had already seen all the weapons, Koresh showed them to him and noted that Koresh had the only key. They should have arrested him while he was out of the building, as he ventured outside the walls all the time
Did you know that they used more CS gas in Waco than any other place in the nations history?
If breathed in a confined space, where one must inhale CS into the lungs if one is to inhale air into the lungs, the edema and capillary leakage will cause pneumonia and death. The lack of human volunteers for such death precludes determining the human lethal dose by experimentation. Among test animals, it has been shown to vary widely. Guinea pigs die at half the dose necessary to kill rats or rabbits
http://www.hardylaw.net/CS.html

So kill them all right?

How did they kill the kids?

Using tactics like they did on a group that thought the world was coming to an end, people that were preparing for it.
Those morons knew that the Branch Davidians were never going to give up, if they didn't after 51 days, they were really fucking stupid, so they used CS gas in a closed space. More CS gas than any other instance in US history.
People with that mind set are not going to give up when their compound is surrounded, there are tanks punching holes in the walls and more than enough CS gas to kill people is being pumped in.
The FBI and ATF declared war on them using tactics that are used in WAR, not serving a warrant.

Most believe the first shot that night was an ATF agent killing a dog!

Koresh had the only key to all the weapons, this is documented. They should have picked up Koresh when he ventured outside the complex, which he did and that is also documented. No one would have had a gun after that. Those kids would still be alive.

The ATF was hoping for a big bust to boost their media attention.



Rochard thinks it's ok because of the allegations of what was going on inside, seems he has forgotten about the whole innocent before found guilty thing we are guaranteed in this country.

Those ATF murdered those children, two of the ATF agents were fired, later to be let back on at a lower rank. They should have been put in prison.

Vendzilla believes they stabbed them in the chest with knives.