How about answering my question. What was the cause of death?

You are right Brett. The next time police serve a warrant on child molestation, and they shoot police officers, police should just back away.

Just remember, the molestation didn't really happen because the girl that testified before Congress was actually lying due to a custody case.

Sure sure Brett, they stabbed them all.

You are telling us that the ATF wanted to make a big bust to get "more money from Congress". The truth is this didn't start with the ATF, it started with the local Sheriff. The local Sheriff was unable to investigate because they couldn't serve a warrant on a house with one hundred armed people in it.

Didn't know, not caring. It was a large compound, and there was over hundred people in it. So it makes sense they would use more tear gas than the in the average house.

Gee, I breathed in tear gas in a confined space and I seem fine.

The intention wasn't to kill anyone Brett. Tear gas is used to disable people and force them to submit. This is still a commonly used practice by law enforcement.

Brett, these people were accused of molesting little girls and then shot and killed police officers. You are accusing police of killing children, while there is proof that they were murdered before hand - including a three year old that was stabbed in the chest.

Fuck it, ok Richard. Next time they kill a bunch of people, I'm sure they will find proof it was ok to do so.

Guilty until proven innocent, until then, gas the children. We can cover it up later.

Your right. You are one hundred percent right. Let them shoot all the cops they want.

So if people come at your house in civilian vehicles wearing black tac gear and carrying assault weapons, you are going to just let them come in?

Let's just agree to disagree
You think they did it the right way

I don't

I think they should have served the warrant as it was written in person to arrest Koresh when he was outside of the compound, knowing he had the only key to the weapons because of a previous inspection from the local police. Problem adverted.

Your way

At least those dead kids won't be abused anymore.




Those cops went in looking for a fight, they can't whine for finding one!

Yes.

I'm pretty confident they were all wearing shirts and vests saying "ATF" and had badges. I am also pretty confident they identified themselves.

Do I think they did it the right way? They were serving multiple warrants, including both search warrants and arrest warrants, and they knew there was over one hundred people at the compound. When local police serve an arrest warrant on one person they bring ten officers; They need to secure the parameter of the house to make sure no one escapes, they have to have people on hand to control anyone in the house, and they have to have people on hand to physically conduct the search.

So what exactly did they do wrong when they served the warrants? Did they not identify themselves? Did they not have on clothes that identified themselves? Did they not say they have a search warrant? Did they not knock?

It wasn't one warrant - it was multiple warrants for multiple reasons.

They could have arrested Koresh, but shortly after that they would still have to visit the compound to verify anything Koresh told them. So the end result would have been the same - police serving a search warrant on the compound.

The only one whining is you.

The cops didn't go looking for a fight, but I do believe they expected one. When you conduct a search warrant on a compound with over 100 people in it and four times that amount of weapons, well, you have to go in prepared.

The fact of the matter is that the parents murdered their kids by not leaving the compound before it burned to the ground.

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

that's right. it was the kids fault! :1orglaugh

Wtf?????

Of course not. It's clearly the fault of the police who set fire in three different locations and stabbed three year olds.

They didn't follow the rules

WASHINGTON - Officials involved in the deadly Feb. 28 raid on a Texas cult botched the job and were less than truthful about their actions later, Treasury Secretary Lloyd Bentsen said today. He replaced the head of the agency responsible and suspended five subordinates.

Armed with the results of a probe into the raid, Bentsen said the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms had lost the element of surprise in its attempt to seize David Koresh and enter his Branch Davidian compound. Officials should have called off the raid, Bentsen said.

Four ATF agents died in the raid, along with six cult members. It was the opening act in a drama that led to a 51-day standoff between the FBI and Koresh and his followers and ended with an inferno in which as many as 85 cult members died.

"Numerous officials were less than truthful about the facts," Bentsen said.

Bentsen said he was immediately replacing ATF Director Stephen Higgins with John Magaw, the director of the Secret Service. Magaw will serve as acting director in place of Higgins, who announced Monday he planned to retire Oct. 30.

The secretary placed five top ATF officials on administrative leave: Daniel Hartnett, associate director of law enforcement; Edward Conroy, deputy associate director; David Troy, chief of ATF intelligence; and the two Houston-based agents who led the raid near Waco.

Bentsen made public a 220-page Treasury Department report that faulted ATF for making plans for the operation that were "based on seriously flawed assumptions" about the cult and its leader.

The field commanders, who were suspended, "erred by failing to abort the mission" as soon as they learned that Koresh had been warned, Bentsen said.

"ATF did not adequately explore the possibility of arresting David Koresh away from the compound," Bentsen said.

Instead, ATF officials devised a high-risk strategy to catch cult members by surprise, the report said.

Bentsen said further action would be taken in a number of personnel cases.

Bentsen said Higgins had "assured Treasury that the raid would not proceed if . . . surprise was lost."

Asked why Charles Sarabyn, one of the two field commanders, went ahead with raid anyway, Bentsen said: "I don't know what went on in the man's mind when he made the decision" that was "in absolute violation of the instructions."

ATF agents blamed the loss of surprise for the raid's failure.

The report also found that ATF officials and agents made misleading and inaccurate public statements. Higgins, too, made such statements, but they were based on inaccurate information from subordinates, the report concluded.

The report found that the planning document that was required for the raid was not written until five days after the raid. It was later altered by Sarabyn and Phillip Chojancki after the Texas Rangers requested a copy. The report said the planning document was rewritten by the two field commanders "in a concerted effort to conceal their errors in judgment."

And you don't think the parents had a duty to remove their minor children from a volatile situation?

You want to know who killed kids, read this

On April 10, 2001, The Cato Institute released its critique titled, "No Confidence: An Unofficial Account of the Waco Incident," Policy Analysis no. 395, of the official whitewash. ATF agents that lied to federal investigators, beat a local camera man and were never prosecuted. The FBI showed a gross disregard for human life by firing ferret rounds at the compound and using tanks to ram its walls. Since one child was struck and killed by an FBI ferret round Cato concludes "second degree murder charges may be appropriate" against the FBI agent involved. The involvement as supervisors at Waco of FBI personnel suspended for lying and destroying evidence at Ruby Ridge should have alerted Danforth that he needed to do a professional job, but he ignored those red flags. No attempt was made by Danforth to investigate why there was so much evidence missing at Waco. Cato concludes - "the Waco incident will leave an odius precedent that federal agents can use the 'color of their office' to commit crimes against citizens."

They were letting children out of the compound.

Maybe they stopped that after one of the kids was killed by a ferret round according the the Cato Institute.

Those parents inside were brain washed
The ATF on the outside is suppose to prevent loss of life, not gas children

this compound.. i bet there is a Big Metal Gate.. right?

I bet.. that metal gate.. only has bullet holes on ONE side of of the gate.. the outside.. you look into that at all?

Before or after they stabbed the three year old in the chest?

Read this
http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/f.../pdf/pa395.pdf

Read under May 23rd, 1993

Almost all the ATF agents that he talked to said that they believed the initial raid on the Branch Davidians in Waco "Was a publicity stunt, the main goal of which was to improve the ATF's tarnished Image"

no bullet holes in the cars outside the complex, a door had been removed that would have been evidence.
That PDF has all the info on it, like Janet Reno saying they are beating young children when she had no proof!
She offered to resign over this, but Clinton didn't let her.

After the FBI agent fired a ferret round into a child

You should know this Richard

Feburary 26th, 1994, the jury returns it's verdict in the criminal case. Eleven Branch Davidians are acquitted of all conspiracy charges. Seven of the 11 are convicted of lesser charges and 4 are aquitted of all charges.
The New York times reports that "The jury's verdict amounted to a sunning defeat not only for the justice department, which prosecuted the case, but for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms

October 9, 1999: Newly released documents from the FBI show that agents asked
for permission to shoot any unarmed Branch
Davidians who left Mt. Carmel and
approached their armored vehicles. The
request to use illegal deadly force was denied
by FBI officials in Washington. The documents also outlined seven instances in which
FBI agents threw or launched “flash bang”
grenades at Davidians who were exiting Mt.
Carmel earlier in the standoff. The documents
containing this information were not turned
over to lawyers representing the Davidians at
the 1994 criminal trial or to Congress as it was
preparing for the 1995 hearings on the incident. Bureau officials said that the documents
were either overlooked as they responded to
previous inquiries or that such information
was not specifically sought by Congress.

On February 28, 1993, several ATF agents
physically attacked a local television cameraman named Dan Mulloney. Mulloney was on
the scene at Mt. Carmel covering the ATF raid
for KWTX-TV. After the firefight, Mulloney
was filming the ATF agents as they were
retreating from the Davidian property. When
several ATF agents noticed what he was doing,
they screamed obscenities at him and actually
punched and kicked him while others tried to
steal his camera. Because Mulloney kept his
camera rolling during the entire episode, this
assault, battery, and attempted theft are captured on film. The evidence is thus overwhelming. It is a crime for an ordinary citizen
to punch and kick a cameraman. It is no less a
crime for ATF agents to do so, yet they were
never criminally prosecuted.
Although this incident lasted for approximately one minute, the film footage is telling
because it clearly shows that certain ATF agents
felt perfectly justified in breaking the law.
7 8

well it was a thick metal gate to the compound.. it's an important part of the whole thing

anyway, this entire situation is very interesting, especially considering ruby ridge and the eventual Oklahoma event

Would you go outside if they were throwing flash bang grenades at those that tried?

When the whole thing happened, I couldn't believe it, then later as the papers were made available, I read about it, it's fucked up that our police get away with this shit!

don't forget the fbi lied and covered-up use of incendiary tear gas grenades they used. first they said none were used, then 6 years later after tons of video, audio and testimony they confessed they covered up 2 incendiary tear gas grenades being used, then it was *just 3* they used............


the atf and then the fbi both mishandled this situation. and even within each of those branches of authority, there were separate factions, atf agents talking directly to koresh were not in communication with other atf agents firing weapons.

it was an absolute clusterfuck from all sides.

nevertheless, the use of a lot tear gas on children did happen.

I know right, it's horrible? They went to serve a warrant on a group of people accused of molesting children. That's fucking insane!

Tear gas is evil! We should invade the United States!

They were there for what, two months before the flash grenades were used?

again, the point of the op is already proven by the link in it and the c&p of the author highlighting the hypocrisy.

The ATF was not there for child molesters. :2 cents:

not to mention:

incendiary tear gas grenades: 'These canisters have significantly more chance of starting a fire.'

So the ATF wasn't aware of a series of articles accusing them of child molestation published in the Waco Tribune-Herald?

The original complaint started with the local Sheriff, which was investigating firearm violations and child molestation charges, but the local Sheriff wasn't large enough to handle serving a warrant at a compound with over 100 armed residents, so it was handed over to ATF... Because the ATF isn't concerned with molestation charges, the warrants were for firearms and a potential meth lab.

Seriously> Who gives a shit Rochard, don't be a retard

They were throwing flash bangs at people trying to get out of the building before they used a record amount of CS gas into the building.

They were told not to raid the building if they didn't have the element of surprise, they dis obeyed the wording on the warrant when they ignored that part.

Fuck you Rochard, I'm done with you, you are completely retarded and haven't read anything about the facts of the raid in the Cato report.

The Branch Davidians were found innocent of almost all the charges against them.

The ATF beat up a camera man and they we not charged for it, it was caught on tape. These agents should rot in hell for the deaths of those people.

You have not given in on one fact I have dug up, so at this poiint I believe you are just fucking with me. I can't believe anyone can be so fucking stupid and I don't need to waste my time trying to prove a retard wrong.

I'm putting you on ignore, this is just too important to me to waste time on trolls!

July 30, 1992: ATF agents interview Texas
firearms dealer Henry McMahon about his
business dealings with Branch Davidian leader
David Koresh. During the interview,
McMahon telephones Koresh. Koresh tells
McMahon that if the ATF agents perceive any
legal problem, they can come to Mt. Carmel
and check his inventory and paperwork. ATF
agents decline the invitation.

? November 1992: Producers of CBS?s 60
Minutes contact ATF officials about sexual
harassment in the agency, requesting an
interview with the director, Stephen Higgins.
ATF officials brace themselves for an unflattering report on national television.
6
? December 1992: On the basis of information developed through its investigation,
ATF concludes that there is probable cause to
believe that David Koresh is in violation of
federal firearms regulations. ATF begins to
develop a plan to search Mt. Carmel and
arrest Koresh.
1993: 60 Minutes airs a story
titled ?Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and
Harassment,? a devastating report on sexual
harassment within the ATF. Several female
agents describe how they were sexually
harassed by fellow agents and further
describe the retaliation they received after
they lodged complaints with their supervisors. Agent Bob Hoffman, who corroborated
one of the female agent?s complaints, tells
Mike Wallace: ?In my career with ATF, the
people that I put in jail have more honor
than the top administration in this organization. I know it?s a sad commentary, but that?s
my experience with the ATF.?
8
? January 21, 1993: ATF solicits military
assistance for its planned raid. Among other
things, the ATF requests use of the Military
Operations in Urban Terrain facility at Fort
Hood, Texas.
9
? February 25, 1993: ATF agents seek and
obtain an arrest warrant for David Koresh and
a search warrant for the Mt. Carmel complex

It says earlier, it doesn't give exact dates

Would you want to come out of a building when federal agents are throwing grenades at you?

Probably why so many people died, they thought they could survive the CS gas, but not the grenades

awesome name the atf named it too-

operation SHOWTIME


tres apropos.

damn, I think this puts my argument in the light that was the OP
This is straight from Committee reports from the 104th congress

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquer...el=TOC_576029&

The Government's use of CS gas in the manner it did, that is, clearly designed to incapacitate men, women and children in a confined, unventilated space, after avenues of escape had been deliberately cut off, was unconscionable; as was the cursory manner in which the Government, and especially Attorney General Reno `bought into' the conclusory and simplistic analyses that the use of CS gas posed an `acceptable' level of risk.

The fact is, while experts may--and did--differ over the precise effects of CS gas on children, or how and in what ways the use of CS gas might act as a catalyst for a fire, no rational person can conclude that the use of CS gas under any circumstances against children, would do anything other than cause extreme physical problems and possibly death.

For the Government of this country to consciously use CS gas in the way it did on April 19, 1993 in Waco is utterly indefensible and should never be allowed to be repeated. I believe the deaths of dozens of men, women and children can be directly and indirectly attributable to the use of this gas in the way it was injected by the FBI.

I would go further than the report, and call for a prohibition on the use of CS gas in situations in which children or the elderly are present or are the targets.

Anyone want to argue with that?