I am not religious but definitely spiritual, so I guess the question is not for me, and if it was this would VERY likely not be the appropriate forum to discuss it, but I believe there are more planes of reality than what we experience and interact with physically and consciously, and that the universe we perceive with with our bodies both influences and is influenced by the others.

In the same way we are all, as parts of the universe, on a journey to unify ourselves with the other parts.

When I "pray" I am expressing and focusing my will, affirming my intentions to the universe but also opening myself to the universe's intentions at the same time so that hopefully my will and "God's" will can become one, either by casting the one vote needed to change the overall consensus or else allowing my own will to change to better serve the harmony of the universe.

Sometimes this causes amazing things to happen for me. Other times it helps me to focus my intentions and act in a way that make my goals reachable. Yet other times it enables me to deal with and understand situations and events I would have preferred to avoid.

It's entirely possible that without the concept of "God" or "prayer" nothing would happen differently and that all these things could be expressed in purely mundane and secular terms, however that's just the way it works for me.

So lets summarize your stance on religion.

1) Our team is right (atheists)
2) Their team is wrong (religious)
3) Our team is righteous and good
4) Their team is evil and wrong... and "delusional idiots" and "crazy motherfuckers"

etc etc etc....

You are starting to sound quite religious.
:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

you made it personal

here's a refresher for you


I simply stated the fact that any one would be hard-pressed to prove religion has done more harm than good.

MOreover, you're assuming I have "such religious conviction blah blah".

but keep trying, I'm getting a kick outta the lolz.

:1orglaugh

:thumbsup

You are following the playbook buy the numbers, in case you didn't know it.
Phase 2 of debating with and atheist is to tell them they seem like or are in a religion.

I have a question: Is there any religion that you know of.... that is based upon other peoples opposite beleifs? If your beleif goes away I have no need for mine. it's not a religion. A beleif certainly, a disbeleif mostly.

And yes, I think people are delusional,. (Crazy MFers) But it doesn't mean I hate them etc......
I think everybody has the right to beleive what they want. I also beleive that people have been manipulated since birth to beleive the religious bull shit. It's an unfair advantage for a really bad idea in a war of ideas. Kinda like diet coke. The marketing is so strong people drink it even though it's freaking harmful and the artificial sweetener should never have been made legal

Just sayin'

:upsidedow

its basically the same thing as crossing your fingers.

Nope... not personal. I really want you to do some research.

You can't take the good parts of religion and keep them and discard the dastardly shit religion has done.

Would you say "Hitler was a great fucking guy!!! He created the best and most powerful coutry in the world, he created roads and museums, art,, gorgeous buldings, the V2 rocket, advancements in medical science. etc......"

No you wouldn't!!! Hitler has to take ownership for all the bad shit he did. PERIOD!!!!
So does religion.

keep assuming.

not to mention this has absolutey zero to do with the fact that anyone would be hard-pressed to prove that religion has done more harm than good.

You are so completely unsure of your view you interpret my comment as one-sided.

Here, I'll state it another way, just for you:

anyone would be hard-pressed to prove religion has done more good than harm.


:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

OK, the only reason I'm even talking about this with anybody here is that I think this is the only life we have, That there is no paradise after death. (My working model)
So I think we should not destory this world in hopes of the next. Religions mostly say it's all gonna happen in the next lifein paradise. That this is just a trial run for evermore. This harms society and the earth. Why care about this world if you have another in the que? Bad ideas are "Just bad"

Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you just quote an example of two businesses that athiests WOULDN'T do business with? Or TRIED to put OUT of business?

Other than than though, I agree with your post.

I am doing research all the time, I have read more religious texts than most anybody you will ever meet. (Reading these texts completely will lead you to atheism)
I get as much history in my brain as I can. Don't forget scientific princliples.

My working model changes evey time I get more input. I am not unsure of my current position on this topic. It is the best working model I have at this time based on information available that I have been exposed to.

If a god came to me and said hey MFer you have been wrong this whole time and said "Kneel before me and pray" I would tell it to "Kneel before me and start sucking!!! You horrible fucking bastard!!!!"

You talk like you're the only one around here who has read/can read/does read.

And no, reading "these texts completely" will not lead everyone to atheism.

Which 2 things are you talking about, please. It wasn't my intention. Point it out for me.

I don't pray for rain. It it rains, it rains. If it does't, my grass still gets watered and I have plenty to drink.

I only pray for the safety and security of my own family. So far that's been working fine.

That's not true if you look at the world today. Nations that have high percentages of atheists have higher life expectancies than more religious nations.

I was pointing out how and why my viewpoints change and it is base upon input. Reading etc.... I am not saying I am smarter than any person here.
What I am saying is that I haven't been indoctinated in this resoect. So my views are worthwhile if just as a counterpoint to conventional points of view.

Never argue with a crazy person. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
I am open to the idea that I am the crazy one here, are you open to the idea you are?

Either way this is just wanking off at this point for us both.

From my reading it has become apparent to me that the ancient Israelites, the group that invented monotheism and an omnipotent creator/king of the universe, were brilliant. The development of their religion, Judaism, was much more about politics than spirituality. They were a semi-nomadic tribe in lands surrounded by powerful empires constantly at war vying for more land and resources. Their religion is what they used to bind their people to the cause of nationhood, they had nothing else. In the Torah/Bible, every other group of people in Canaan are painted as their wicked and evil enemies.

Atheists don't seem to understand or can't admit to themselves that their freedom of thought was made possible by centuries of progress and stability that Christianity brought throughout Europe and then the New World. They aren't the intellectuals they think they are today without the influence of religion and they can mock religion all they want but much of who they are and what they think comes from religion, it's in the air from the moment we're born.

We may be at a point in our development that religion is no longer necessary but we'd not have reached this stage without it.

I personally don't have a problem with FAITH. MY problem is with organized religion.

People can gain strength from faith and there's nothing wrong with that. I might see it as weak, but if it benefits them, who am I to say faith doesn't help people.

Organized religion on the other hand is little more than a tax exempt big business that takes advantage of it's forum by spewing hate towards certain groups under the guise of a belief, all the while preaching, "love your fellow man". All of THAT is based on nothing more than THAT church leaders INTERPRETATION of a book. Why will one priest say being gay is a hell bound sin, yet another will marry a gay couple with no second thought? That being said, even organized religion CAN do good things, like food drives etc.

The bottom line for ME is believe in what you want but don't ram it down my throat or judge me based on what I believe in, because I'm not judging you. And don't spew hate disguised as a "belief".

Again, I'm not the one who quoted you claiming you clearly need to do the research.

I was referring to this exchange (and earlier)...

Just like dems and republicans are not above the dirty tricks, christians AND athiests are BOTH willing to boycott businesses based on their beliefs. That last line contradicts your line "Yes, it is...".

"Grapesoda" responds to Shap:

"Why to go"? Sounds like you are the retard... :1orglaugh

Shap is a well-respected person in this business, and when you attack him, you are antagonizing potential clients.

Yet, it is okay to disparage whole religions and races as you do in your frequently racist and bigoted posts. :helpme

http://global3.memecdn.com/dont-worr..._o_2357037.jpg

As you set up the argument, you must only have clients that are white racist homophobes, since you constantly post divisive posts that alienate minorities, liberals, gay people, religions, etc. :1orglaugh

:stoned

I didn't write the line but did write yes it is. And now I see what you reffer to. chick-fli-a promotes censorship, so that's to what I was referring. (I still eat there occasionally, even though I hate censorship) Not an atheist thing for me. And duck dynasty are stupid and I don't watch it. Again not an atheist thing. But if either one of them wanted to promote my porn sites.... we're all good.

Hi Shap,

I totally understand or the need to believe in a higher power. My curiosity stems from the angle of the belief in miracles or that god has some reason to save your kid from dying in a car crash but "choosing" to take another life because he needed them now in heaven. These seem so selfish and far fetched to me.

But in the case of the example you described, is the belief driven by the fear that if they steal they will go to hell? Is that the main reason for not stealing and killing?

Mitch

That's fine. You're saying YOU'LL do business with them, that's great. But it's common knowledge that athiests DID have a problem with both institutions. So you saying athiests will do business with anyone is inaccurate. Athiests can be just as intolerant as christians about the other sides beliefs. That's what I was referring to.

I am not mocking anyone for believing in god and I didn't say that I don't either. I am just curious about the true belief in praying itself and the expected outcome.
I respect all religion and the lack thereof as well.

Yep, atheist are people and do stupid people shit too. I wasn't meaning to be absolute.

:thumbsup

The red part IS one of the biggest differences between athiests and christians.

Not so sure I agree with all of this. It seems to me the most peaceful countries in the world are also the least religious ones - Sweden, New Zealand, etc. On the flip side the most violent countries in the world are the most religious ones - name any country in the middle east. And the most religious of all Christian countries? America. I would suggest it is also the most violent of all Christian countries.

I agree. I always wonder why an athlete would think God would bless them with the ability to beat another person? Or why would God even get involved in sports when people all over the world are suffering.

Not sure if it's heaven or hell or an after life but something about the repercussions of their bad actions seem to scare the shit out of them.

When I pray
 

Am I expecting a miracle? No, I don't think so.

Praying for things like money, success etc aren't things that truly matter in the grand scheme of life.

My prayers are usually just good wishes and asking God to help in whatever way he can make something a little easier to bear for someone/thing.

My step-sister is home dying. I haven't prayed that she not die, I have prayed that he help her the best he can in her transition, and more important, the people who will be left behind.

Is he going to take all of our pain away? No, he wont, but he may send someone who can help.

My animal is sick. Am I praying he make him better? No, I'm praying he help comfort him while he's hurting. That could be as simple as me buying him a new bed because the thought popped in my head, but came from elsewhere.

And last....

Sometimes Gods greatest gifts are unanswered prayers.

Feel me?

I am a gay atheist and like to deposit my genes in a hot male twinks ass. :thumbsup

So you are correct. I have no interest in replicating myself and I know there is no god.

*Love* your answer. Perfect.

http://www.famquotes.com/images/humanism-quotes-6.jpg

Our brains are not "wired for religion". That is religious propaganda.

The human creators of religion have used their understanding of emotion (happiness, fear, etc) and human nature, to codify a set of rules to impose their will on the rest of society, through manipulation of the masses.

Expectations from religious folks are that atheists must have some universal code for explaining everything, creation, etc, etc, ad nauseum, when quite honestly, atheism does not require that one have all the answers, and just the opposite, many atheists believe such questions are either unknowable, or irrelevant/unimportant to creating a better and more just society based upon humanism or some other secular philosophy.

Despite the best (worst) efforts of organized religion, atheism is alive and well, and growing. :)

http://quotes-lover.com/wp-content/u...u-are-dead.jpg

:stoned

ADG

I had a near death experience years ago.

Everything you hear about them is bullshit. There's no light or happy, bubbly feeling.

It was just blackness, felt really warm, and sounded like metal music getting played backwards.


:1orglaugh

There is a pretty strong argument in my mind (made by evolutionary biologists/social psychology) that it was primarily monotheistic religion that allowed people to successfully live together in larger and larger societies. We made a very quick and massive leap from hunter gatherers, and living in groups of 100-150 max to living in huge cities. It is just a great catalyst for not only binding people together, but for the first time, to bind people of varying languages and ethnicity's together.

This is a large part of what enabled something in humans that no other animal has ever mastered to the extent that humans have. In fact, no species on the planet is even close to the degree of cooperative behaviors that humans are capable of. This is only made possible when the individual, looks beyond "me" and look also to the welfare of "us"... and when times demand it, even sacrifices himself for the greater good of the group. As a result, those stronger belief systems that were most effective survived.

And I agree.. if you look at the history of the time, people were largely subjugated by kings proclaiming themselves to be living gods. Monotheism countered this as well, and quite successfully - establishing a higher law than that king and a set of rules that dealt almost exclusively with fairness and morality that a king would have to then be subjugated to. It was a clever mechanism for undermining the power and authority of rulers, particularly those who were unjust.

I don't really believe in a "God" .. But I do believe there is some kind of higher power out there. I don't know what, who, or where it is.. I think that there is something that makes this world go round.. Is it the Sun? I have no clue.. Is it Mother Earth? Fuck if I know.. all I know is there is something out there that makes things happen..

Every once in a while I find myself asking "please help me fix this" but I think it's more of a generalization or seeking the inner strength.. Im not on bended knee asking jesus christ for a miracle.. religion is a crutch for most people...

I am not religious. I simply understand the value and purpose of religion. And its not "propaganda" and definitely isn't "religious propaganda" when I am referring to neurology and the wiring of the brain and evolutionary biology as it pertains to beliefs and belief systems... namely religious beliefs.

But of course, its an easy way to spare yourself from having to say anything intelligent when you can just unilaterally dismiss anything said as "propaganda".

Here's some biased "propaganda" for you to ponder... http://www.gallup.com/poll/147887/am...lieve-god.aspx

What?
 

1. To which 'God' does thou refer? There are so many :) :upsidedow

2. Prove with absolute Proof there is No God :) (I know does not pass Scientific proof) :321GFY

3. Why is 'God' a Homie with a Beard (both young and old?) Eastern or Western.

4. Prove there is a 'God' :winkwink:

5. Go Fuck Yourself and Happy New Year :thumbsup

Fuck, so as a way a controlling the unwashed, and as a way of pushing people further than is healthy bring it on !!!

It is utter bullshit to suggest that religion is necessary for society to function. The soviets pretty much abolished religion had had exceptionally low levels of crime.

However as a way of furthering your political aims through terroism religion is perfect. Anyone for jihad ?

Uhmm... They abolished religion for the most part. Then died a slow death and descended into complete misery. Great point you made there.

And they did not have "low levels of crime". They seemed to keep the prisons and gulags quite full. Full enough to bring the Soviet Union into the industrial age on the back of slave prison labor.They kept virtually no statistics on crime whatsoever and actively kept it hidden from the public.

Dumb point.

The soviet system failed because it lost an economic race against the west. Not because of any kind of issue around crime and deviance.

The point I made was in response to shap suggesting that religion was essential for society to function. (otherwise the poor would steal from the rich)

It is well documented that crime rates have soared in post communist societies, as have congregations.......

You can say it was the loss of an economic race but the point is more "why did they lose that race".

Lenin and then Stalin actively and aggressively destroyed all of the major underpinnings of society that binds people together and unites them, the biggest of which was definitely religion. They destroyed nearly every traditional institution. I lived in Russia many years. I am fluent in Russian. One cannot possibly overstate the destructive force communism was on the culture and that it turned people into largely shiftless people with no interest in the future. It wasn't purely an "economic" issue. It wasn't an economic issue as well. The economic failure was a symptom of the much greater failure of destroying a culture almost entirely and replacing it with theater, propaganda, lies, violence, secret police and prison camp systems and promises that would never come to fruition.

I was there during the transition. Why was there so much violence? The same thing then happened in reverse. Every institution and the dream of the future was again destroyed and replaced with nothing. Chaos ensued. Very normal. Just as it eventually settled down as it has today.

Why did the same protracted violence not occur in Estonia or Latvia for example? They already had a national identity and more easily reverted back to who they were and reclaimed their identity. They just didn't suffer from the same cultural problems and loss of identity and institutions that Russia did.

http://www.quotespedia.info/images/l...n_lies_344.jpg

I studied Statistics in college, so don't get me started on polling companies pollaganda (polling propaganda)...lol. :winkwink:

That so many people believe in god(s) is not proof of god(s), but is a result of religious propaganda. Humans are basically helpless at birth, and take a long time to develop and do basic things necessary to their survival, and so they primarily learn from others what to believe and do. It is not something innate that makes people believe in religion.

I took exception to your usage of the word "hardwired", as if to suggest that humans are predisposed to believing in a god, while I would suggest that the way people think is often shaped more by their interactions with other humans, particularly those that have the most direct impact on their development (parents, teachers, government/religious authorities), and that the dogmatists driving the institution (religion or whatever) use their understanding of human psychology to manipulate people to believe (or merely accept) their philosophy.

BTW, check the difference between neurology and neurotheology. :upsidedow

:stoned

ADG

It is kind of like the power of positive thinking. If you wake up every morning with the attitude that today you are going to go out there and be awesome and do good things and be successful you are helping put yourself in a position to work hard and achieve good things.

If you start the day thinking it is going to be another shitty day where you are going to struggle to get through it it is no wonder when you struggle.

If you believe that God is watching out for you and has your best interests at heart then it gives many people a positive mental attitude that good things will happen. If nothing else it can help you live a happier life.

Do you know what efficacy means?

:stoned

ADG

of course I know what efficacy means. That's why the word is apppropriately used.

some of you atheists sure seem defensive re: your "beliefs" or lack of them, even going so far as to make snide comments about a word.

a quick google for you

https://www.google.com/search?q=effi...hrome&ie=UTF-8

I hear ya. You get the point.