Not so sure I agree with all of this. It seems to me the most peaceful countries in the world are also the least religious ones - Sweden, New Zealand, etc. On the flip side the most violent countries in the world are the most religious ones - name any country in the middle east. And the most religious of all Christian countries? America. I would suggest it is also the most violent of all Christian countries.

I agree. I always wonder why an athlete would think God would bless them with the ability to beat another person? Or why would God even get involved in sports when people all over the world are suffering.

Not sure if it's heaven or hell or an after life but something about the repercussions of their bad actions seem to scare the shit out of them.

When I pray
 

Am I expecting a miracle? No, I don't think so.

Praying for things like money, success etc aren't things that truly matter in the grand scheme of life.

My prayers are usually just good wishes and asking God to help in whatever way he can make something a little easier to bear for someone/thing.

My step-sister is home dying. I haven't prayed that she not die, I have prayed that he help her the best he can in her transition, and more important, the people who will be left behind.

Is he going to take all of our pain away? No, he wont, but he may send someone who can help.

My animal is sick. Am I praying he make him better? No, I'm praying he help comfort him while he's hurting. That could be as simple as me buying him a new bed because the thought popped in my head, but came from elsewhere.

And last....

Sometimes Gods greatest gifts are unanswered prayers.

Feel me?

I am a gay atheist and like to deposit my genes in a hot male twinks ass. :thumbsup

So you are correct. I have no interest in replicating myself and I know there is no god.

*Love* your answer. Perfect.

http://www.famquotes.com/images/humanism-quotes-6.jpg

Our brains are not "wired for religion". That is religious propaganda.

The human creators of religion have used their understanding of emotion (happiness, fear, etc) and human nature, to codify a set of rules to impose their will on the rest of society, through manipulation of the masses.

Expectations from religious folks are that atheists must have some universal code for explaining everything, creation, etc, etc, ad nauseum, when quite honestly, atheism does not require that one have all the answers, and just the opposite, many atheists believe such questions are either unknowable, or irrelevant/unimportant to creating a better and more just society based upon humanism or some other secular philosophy.

Despite the best (worst) efforts of organized religion, atheism is alive and well, and growing. :)

http://quotes-lover.com/wp-content/u...u-are-dead.jpg

:stoned

ADG

I had a near death experience years ago.

Everything you hear about them is bullshit. There's no light or happy, bubbly feeling.

It was just blackness, felt really warm, and sounded like metal music getting played backwards.


:1orglaugh

There is a pretty strong argument in my mind (made by evolutionary biologists/social psychology) that it was primarily monotheistic religion that allowed people to successfully live together in larger and larger societies. We made a very quick and massive leap from hunter gatherers, and living in groups of 100-150 max to living in huge cities. It is just a great catalyst for not only binding people together, but for the first time, to bind people of varying languages and ethnicity's together.

This is a large part of what enabled something in humans that no other animal has ever mastered to the extent that humans have. In fact, no species on the planet is even close to the degree of cooperative behaviors that humans are capable of. This is only made possible when the individual, looks beyond "me" and look also to the welfare of "us"... and when times demand it, even sacrifices himself for the greater good of the group. As a result, those stronger belief systems that were most effective survived.

And I agree.. if you look at the history of the time, people were largely subjugated by kings proclaiming themselves to be living gods. Monotheism countered this as well, and quite successfully - establishing a higher law than that king and a set of rules that dealt almost exclusively with fairness and morality that a king would have to then be subjugated to. It was a clever mechanism for undermining the power and authority of rulers, particularly those who were unjust.

I don't really believe in a "God" .. But I do believe there is some kind of higher power out there. I don't know what, who, or where it is.. I think that there is something that makes this world go round.. Is it the Sun? I have no clue.. Is it Mother Earth? Fuck if I know.. all I know is there is something out there that makes things happen..

Every once in a while I find myself asking "please help me fix this" but I think it's more of a generalization or seeking the inner strength.. Im not on bended knee asking jesus christ for a miracle.. religion is a crutch for most people...

I am not religious. I simply understand the value and purpose of religion. And its not "propaganda" and definitely isn't "religious propaganda" when I am referring to neurology and the wiring of the brain and evolutionary biology as it pertains to beliefs and belief systems... namely religious beliefs.

But of course, its an easy way to spare yourself from having to say anything intelligent when you can just unilaterally dismiss anything said as "propaganda".

Here's some biased "propaganda" for you to ponder... http://www.gallup.com/poll/147887/am...lieve-god.aspx

What?
 

1. To which 'God' does thou refer? There are so many :) :upsidedow

2. Prove with absolute Proof there is No God :) (I know does not pass Scientific proof) :321GFY

3. Why is 'God' a Homie with a Beard (both young and old?) Eastern or Western.

4. Prove there is a 'God' :winkwink:

5. Go Fuck Yourself and Happy New Year :thumbsup

Fuck, so as a way a controlling the unwashed, and as a way of pushing people further than is healthy bring it on !!!

It is utter bullshit to suggest that religion is necessary for society to function. The soviets pretty much abolished religion had had exceptionally low levels of crime.

However as a way of furthering your political aims through terroism religion is perfect. Anyone for jihad ?

Uhmm... They abolished religion for the most part. Then died a slow death and descended into complete misery. Great point you made there.

And they did not have "low levels of crime". They seemed to keep the prisons and gulags quite full. Full enough to bring the Soviet Union into the industrial age on the back of slave prison labor.They kept virtually no statistics on crime whatsoever and actively kept it hidden from the public.

Dumb point.

The soviet system failed because it lost an economic race against the west. Not because of any kind of issue around crime and deviance.

The point I made was in response to shap suggesting that religion was essential for society to function. (otherwise the poor would steal from the rich)

It is well documented that crime rates have soared in post communist societies, as have congregations.......

You can say it was the loss of an economic race but the point is more "why did they lose that race".

Lenin and then Stalin actively and aggressively destroyed all of the major underpinnings of society that binds people together and unites them, the biggest of which was definitely religion. They destroyed nearly every traditional institution. I lived in Russia many years. I am fluent in Russian. One cannot possibly overstate the destructive force communism was on the culture and that it turned people into largely shiftless people with no interest in the future. It wasn't purely an "economic" issue. It wasn't an economic issue as well. The economic failure was a symptom of the much greater failure of destroying a culture almost entirely and replacing it with theater, propaganda, lies, violence, secret police and prison camp systems and promises that would never come to fruition.

I was there during the transition. Why was there so much violence? The same thing then happened in reverse. Every institution and the dream of the future was again destroyed and replaced with nothing. Chaos ensued. Very normal. Just as it eventually settled down as it has today.

Why did the same protracted violence not occur in Estonia or Latvia for example? They already had a national identity and more easily reverted back to who they were and reclaimed their identity. They just didn't suffer from the same cultural problems and loss of identity and institutions that Russia did.

http://www.quotespedia.info/images/l...n_lies_344.jpg

I studied Statistics in college, so don't get me started on polling companies pollaganda (polling propaganda)...lol. :winkwink:

That so many people believe in god(s) is not proof of god(s), but is a result of religious propaganda. Humans are basically helpless at birth, and take a long time to develop and do basic things necessary to their survival, and so they primarily learn from others what to believe and do. It is not something innate that makes people believe in religion.

I took exception to your usage of the word "hardwired", as if to suggest that humans are predisposed to believing in a god, while I would suggest that the way people think is often shaped more by their interactions with other humans, particularly those that have the most direct impact on their development (parents, teachers, government/religious authorities), and that the dogmatists driving the institution (religion or whatever) use their understanding of human psychology to manipulate people to believe (or merely accept) their philosophy.

BTW, check the difference between neurology and neurotheology. :upsidedow

:stoned

ADG

It is kind of like the power of positive thinking. If you wake up every morning with the attitude that today you are going to go out there and be awesome and do good things and be successful you are helping put yourself in a position to work hard and achieve good things.

If you start the day thinking it is going to be another shitty day where you are going to struggle to get through it it is no wonder when you struggle.

If you believe that God is watching out for you and has your best interests at heart then it gives many people a positive mental attitude that good things will happen. If nothing else it can help you live a happier life.

Do you know what efficacy means?

:stoned

ADG

of course I know what efficacy means. That's why the word is apppropriately used.

some of you atheists sure seem defensive re: your "beliefs" or lack of them, even going so far as to make snide comments about a word.

a quick google for you

https://www.google.com/search?q=effi...hrome&ie=UTF-8

I hear ya. You get the point.

and the quote you provide-

this one
is entirely misleading, that was a study strictly on Intercessory Prayer.

do you know what intercessory prayer is?

Lolling so hard about the idea of a scientific study into prayers.

What next? Tooth fairy efficacy research?

Did you check the page of links that you posted? :1orglaugh

In perusing the articles on the first few pages of the Google search you provided, most of the articles seem to debunk or at least seriously question the efficacy of prayer.

I particularly like this one, since I'm a big Cecil Adams fan:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...-heal-the-sick

People that pray (want to) believe that their prayers will supernaturally by answered. When put to the test, it appears that prayer is not effective, even if it makes the person praying feel better, at least psychologically. :2 cents:

http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/...ler-299936.jpg

Where are the clinical scientific studies that you claimed prove the efficacy of prayer?

:stoned

ADG

I'm not going to fall into the trap of arguing with an devout atheist on the power of prayer.

you can pick and choose links all you want to prove your point, and I can do the same.

I have no desire whatsoever to try and change your mind, couldn't care less really. I'm comfortable in my beliefs, perhaps you are as well.

I appreciate your response. So let me clarify. By "hardwired", i meant that there are numerous mechanisms at work in your brain that LEND themselves quite well to a belief in God. Just as with countless other, and often disturbing preferences, we possess the framework for religious beliefs, already when we are born. What happens with that framework depends entirely on ones life experiences and environment and even brain development as well (ones interpretation of events/mental disorders or disturbances etc).

A newborn infant already possess a basic framework for morality and moral beliefs. A sense of right and wrong, a sense of fair and unfair. An understanding of basic physical laws and how objects should behave. A newborn infant already possesses preferences for their own language over another, for their own mother over another, for their own mothers voice over another, for their own mothers face, over another, for their own race over another race, with an innate sense of disgust at many things such as tainted or spoiled food, incest and so on and so on and so on (the list is quite long and its a subject which is very fascinating to study). Those facts do not mean there still cannot be an infinite number of possible outcomes shaped by environment, genetics and experience. We are born with a basic intuitive sense (not learned) feeling that "up" on a vertical axis is "good" or "sacred" and down is "profane" or "bad". The list is quite long. What i would suggest is that a lot of pieces are there, present in the brain and brain function that easily come together.

I have argued that MONOTHEISTIC religion which is largely all we see today, is little more than moral law - It is an adaptive response to a shift from small, nomadic hunter gatherer groups, to a sedentary lifestyle where increasingly large numbers of people need to live together and effectively get along. Religion throughout the last 10,000 years, has proven to be much more effective than law and punishment at keeping the group together and uniting and binding people. Both appeared and took hold at the same time. Both grew together. The 10 Commandments are not insane ideas.. they are basic ideas we all agree with and that social psychologists will argue, principles which are innate within us. It's the pageantry and parables and fables that seem insane and its that sillyness people use to attempt to discredit what are really, at their core, very sensible ideas that have proven beneficial, hence their existence.

Though I understand it and think its both an important and necessary response, I am constantly bemused by people wanting to talk about how dumb the other side is and how righ they are without wanting to listen to or consider anything outside of what they are already determined to believe. A wise people would be thinking "hmm.. that's interesting, tell me more". Though I am a dick on this forum, I am very interested in knowledge and learning. I am not quick to discount others views and I don't think i am right, without exception. I argue that way, but that really is just a means to get to the truth, or best argument, or idea.

At the end of the day, you cannot prove there is no God. That is one of many reasons why there is a persistent, widespread belief in God. Thats not a belief or opinion. That is a simple scientific fact we all must live with.

And I would also say that it requires a great deal of arrogance in my view, to truly believe and argue that "most people on the planet are wrong and I am right... end of story!". People who paint themselves as "progressive" and "liberal" seem to be every bit as intolerant as those that rail against non-stop. Both are simply the other side of the same coin.

I can understand when someone says that Republicans and Democrats are two sides to the same (capitalist) coin, despite their differences on taxes, and social/moral issues, however claiming that people whom consider themselves progressive or liberal as a group are as intolerant as religious conservatives is simply not accurate.

With that said, there are extremists/kooks on the right, left, and everywhere in between (these are usually the people that are pointed at when people from the opposite end of the ideological spectrum want to make a point).

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/c...99576189_n.jpg

:stoned

ADG

This thread is delivering

not really.

nothing in this thread that hasn't been argued before at gfy.

and many other places.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Kar3sGZZdb...certainty2.jpg


I haven't read the whole thread yet... anyone bring up pascals wager yet? :1orglaugh:1orglaugh:error

Got to love Cult of Dusty.. :)

same with the liberals here in America, destroy everything that gave them then opportunity to sit back and decide America is crap :2 cents:

"When I was back there in seminary school
There was a person there
Who put forth the proposition
That you can petition the Lord with prayer
Petition the lord with prayer
Petition the lord with prayer
You cannot petition the lord with prayer! "

Jim Morrison

tatala

Send Dyno mo a card for holidays or a nice fruit cake.

Prayer
 

I worship at the altar of Pu-Tang of the female kind...

I'm sure but it's a good topic of convo anyway