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Robbie 02-09-2014 09:31 PM

Thanks for the reply Jay.

JayAllan 02-09-2014 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie (Post 19976414)
Thanks for the reply Jay.

For sure :thumbsup

Shap 02-10-2014 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayAllan (Post 19976367)
Thanks for the response Shap :thumbsup

It is definitely a niche. I think the cost vs the return is not necessarily true. X-Art scenes cost around $7-9k and they are doing fine. Colette and Brigham are wonderful people and they know what they are doing. I think it is more a matter of how it is marketed to the proper end users. Marketing Babes.com to a bunch of Mofos and Brazzers customers will never work. A site like that needs mainstream exposure (porn for women or new tech invades high end porn etc etc) and targeted marketing to get the more discriminating buyers in there. AFAIK Babes.com was never branded as "High Quality Adult Porn" or "Couples Friendly" etc even though it was creatively designed that way.

I do agree it HAS to be hardcore and not at all cheesy but that is easy when done right. A lot of X-Art competition is very poorly executed. They focus on the blown out highlights, white rooms etc but miss on the actual quality of shooting and camera moves. The subtle nuances are what make it great and a lot of copycats just don't see them. :2 cents:

Incidentally, the price of high end "glamcore" will not come down anytime soon. It's already down to the hard costs of labor, equipment and locations. When I was shooting these types of scenes a few years ago (For SexSearch.com) the costs were well over $30k a scene due to the gear and lighting involved. So it is actually a lot cheaper now. That is because of the dramatic shift to DSLRs and low light capability. The hard costs involved are not going to change. You will always need more assistants, makeup, quality lights, and great locations to shoot it. Not to mention talented directors to shoot it. These are all fixed costs that will remain constant. Shooting in Europe of course mitigates some of these costs but the addition costs of moving high end gear and skilled assistants and makeup to these areas balance out most of the numbers. I have been shooting in adult for 21 years now and I have never seen more potential for high quality content as I do now. :)

True. IMO the key with glamcore is the model. That's just me and that's from someone who hasn't spent any time in the market. But my gut is if it's going to be Ultra high end and if it wants to differentiate from brazzers then it has to be new models. It has to be girls i've never seen or never seen in a hardcore scenes.

johnnyloadproductions 02-10-2014 05:37 AM

Shap, when will a majority of users be ready for 4k resolution video?

I guess it's just a matter of watching trendlines and what bandwidth and hardware allows to play...
But from someone who listened to his customers... predictions? :)

http://i.imgur.com/jk5mgj0.png

Shap 02-10-2014 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie (Post 19976379)
Jay...I've shot a lot of porn and been around a lot of porn.

And I promote X-Art stuff.
So I see their work. It's nice. Boring, but nice.

What on Earth causes those scenes to be so expensive? The location? WTF?
It isn't like they are a mainstream movie telling a story on some exotic location. Most of the scenes are either indoors or by a pool. Just like all porn.

They could be shot at any nice home in L.A. or Vegas... or anywhere.

So why are the costs to shoot that so high? I don't get it.
Are they spending days at a time to shoot those nice little vids? I'm not seeing a whole lot of acting or dialogue in the promo materials.

Just cheesy music and the camera set to make a lot of bokeh in the background for that "soft" look.

Am I missing something? I'm not seeing anything that should cost any more than a normal shoot.
Matter of fact, a group sex scene would cost a lot more than what I'm seeing on their site.

Don't get me wrong. It looks pretty. But just looking at it...I think it could be shot for a lot less than a "normal" porn scene. Unless they are flying everybody in private jets to exclusive 5 star hotels and eating caviar.

Call me crazy, but I don't get it.

Robbie I'm like you. I don't get the cost but now that Jay broke it down it makes more sense. I thought a big portion of cost was going to the model. Looks like I was wrong.

X-art did it right and to be fair I don't believe their scenes cost them what it costs their competitors. Why? Because they are shooting it themselves. That imo is a HUGE advantage. It is the advantage that really gave Ftv a leg up years ago as well. When the owner is shooting his own content the costs change dramatically and competing against that is very hard (from a cost perspective).

I don't feel any site can start up and spend an average of 9k per scene and break even. It would be one thing for Twistys or Nubiles to use their massive member engine to power a site like that up. But straight out of the gate the way X-Art did NO WAY. The numbers just don't add up imo.

scouser 02-10-2014 08:47 AM

hey shap,
you still doing this? when you left twistys how many active affiliates would you say there were?
(active as in getting a check/paxum payout at least once every few months)?

also, the m&m store in london - thoughts? as a foreigner (i assume you're not from here originally?), stupid or worth a visit for any tourist in london?

JayAllan 02-10-2014 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shap (Post 19976710)
Robbie I'm like you. I don't get the cost but now that Jay broke it down it makes more sense. I thought a big portion of cost was going to the model. Looks like I was wrong.

Thanks for the replies Shap :thumbsup

There is an additional cost of getting the best models first, but it is just a small part of the budget. Most of the agents (in the USA) will send me, Dean, Holly and the Hicks crew the great girls first because they know the brand new inexperienced girls with be treated well and made to look as good as possible. It is their way of easing them into the crazy industry. BTW I have a blog with lots of Behind The Scenes shots that show my lighting and camera setups www.nakedinla.com for anyone that is interested :)

Robbie 02-10-2014 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayAllan (Post 19977281)
BTW I have a blog with lots of Behind The Scenes shots that show my lighting and camera setups www.nakedinla.com for anyone that is interested :)

Thanks for that link bro!

I love that camera dolly system. Who makes that one?
I have a buddy with a jib and that thing is cool as hell to use.

I noticed that it appears you are shooting from 6 to 10 feet away and using zoom to get the close shots?

Is that what I should be doing shooting with DSLR?
Back when I used vid cams I never used the zoom and just physically moved in close and back.

Should I be changing up my shooting style and using the zoom more?

JayAllan 02-10-2014 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie (Post 19977306)
Thanks for that link bro!

I love that camera dolly system. Who makes that one?
I have a buddy with a jib and that thing is cool as hell to use.

I noticed that it appears you are shooting from 6 to 10 feet away and using zoom to get the close shots?

Is that what I should be doing shooting with DSLR?
Back when I used vid cams I never used the zoom and just physically moved in close and back.

Should I be changing up my shooting style and using the zoom more?

Robbie we shoot with 2 cameras. My B camera is probably set up exactly as you shoot already. And it gets most of the close ups. The A camera I am shooting with is way back so I can shoot a wide shot with a 300mm. That way I can get wide and still minimize the depth of field :) Of course this creates a lot of problems because the longer lens magnifies the shake you get. Hence the slider and dollies etc ;) It's a much slower more complicated way to shoot but I think the results are nice :) Be aware it also adds work to the editing process. I encourage you to experiment. We change up our style every few months to keep it fresh. I like to light all my scenes differently and with different tools all the time. (My assistants hate me lol)

Here are a couple samples with that lens..

http://www.jayallan.com/samples/gfy/JayAllangfy0211.jpg

http://www.jayallan.com/samples/gfy/JayAllangfy0210.jpg

Robbie 02-10-2014 04:43 PM

The reason I asked is because on your monitor it shows a close up shot from your "A" camera that looks to be about 10 feet back. Thanks for clarifying that.

http://nakedinla.com/blog/wp-content...0/P1120255.jpg

jmk 02-28-2014 09:59 AM

Is Joel gay?

Nancy M00re 02-28-2014 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmk (Post 19999184)
Is Joel gay?

Yes he is

Shap 03-03-2014 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayAllan (Post 19977281)
Thanks for the replies Shap :thumbsup

There is an additional cost of getting the best models first, but it is just a small part of the budget. Most of the agents (in the USA) will send me, Dean, Holly and the Hicks crew the great girls first because they know the brand new inexperienced girls with be treated well and made to look as good as possible. It is their way of easing them into the crazy industry. BTW I have a blog with lots of Behind The Scenes shots that show my lighting and camera setups www.nakedinla.com for anyone that is interested :)

Very cool!

Ruseful 03-03-2014 02:46 PM

Hey Shap, pleased to meet you :)

Is it true that with the proposed sale of YouPorn to Manwin, this gave you the confidence to sell twistys to them?

And in adult folklore, it's told that once, you were in a poker game and 30-60 seconds, you would get an email notification of a new member joining your site? Please tell me that's true!!

AshleyMobile 03-03-2014 04:46 PM

I know you love Fat Duck (jelly of all your times there BTW) and travel lots, so what's your favourite restaurant ever? =)

Rumbledog 03-03-2014 05:01 PM

why are all the producers now shooting the same stuff over and over?

Same talent doing the same thing on the x-art rip off sites. Jumping on the wanna be film maker band wagon with DSLR's

I have also noticed how producers are shooting many scenes with the same talent slight different location in the same house
for PassionHD and Nubilesfilms. Who pays for the content PassionHD or Nubiles? Isn't that unethical?

Seriously who wants to see the same guy fuck the same girls over and over in the same style shoots on every website?

Absolutely no creativity and porn producers who think they can really direct. What a joke.

The foreign content and models are far better than the American stuff.

X-ART is the one and only original of this style. Period.

Shap 03-17-2014 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AshleyMobile (Post 20003403)
I know you love Fat Duck (jelly of all your times there BTW) and travel lots, so what's your favourite restaurant ever? =)

Damn Fav restaurant. Hmmm I usually hit my favourites over and over and over and over again. Here are a few.

Super Rica Taqueria in Santa Barabara. Awesome little dive taco place. Best tacos i've had

Katsuya my fav sushi place

Burgers Priest best Burger

Prime 112 skirt steak my fav steak

Miami Juice best healthy lunch

Shap 03-18-2014 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruseful (Post 20003248)
Hey Shap, pleased to meet you :)

Is it true that with the proposed sale of YouPorn to Manwin, this gave you the confidence to sell twistys to them?

And in adult folklore, it's told that once, you were in a poker game and 30-60 seconds, you would get an email notification of a new member joining your site? Please tell me that's true!!

Hey Ruseful! Nice to meet you.

I wish the YP sale gave me the confidence. Our discussions/negotiations happened simultaneously from what I was told. I knew there was another acquisition in the works but didn't know it was you.

ohhhh I wish that story were true. That is AWESOME.

Shap 03-19-2014 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rumbledog (Post 20003420)
why are all the producers now shooting the same stuff over and over?

Same talent doing the same thing on the x-art rip off sites. Jumping on the wanna be film maker band wagon with DSLR's

I have also noticed how producers are shooting many scenes with the same talent slight different location in the same house
for PassionHD and Nubilesfilms. Who pays for the content PassionHD or Nubiles? Isn't that unethical?

Seriously who wants to see the same guy fuck the same girls over and over in the same style shoots on every website?

Absolutely no creativity and porn producers who think they can really direct. What a joke.

The foreign content and models are far better than the American stuff.

X-ART is the one and only original of this style. Period.

Usually talent is in one location and the producers are all around that same area. So truth is if a girl is in phoenix you will probably see her in similar situations. Same with LA.

Rip off and copy cat sites have been around forever in our biz and desperate times call for desperate measures. Truth is I don't ever remember a copy cat blowing up and becoming bigger than the original. Have any of you? Maybe i'm wrong. You are only in trouble if you have a great idea and a big company comes in and copies you. Then you are screwed. Even then it doesn't always work. Babes.com was supposed to ripoff xart how did that work out?

I agree with you. But there is one important thing you are forgetting. Let's say I shoot a girl that x-art shoots for my site. It's a similar scene and similar end product. Yes it's the same but the member may not know that the other exists and wants to see that girl. I grew huge on non exclusive content because of that very reason. 200 sites all had the same content and we smoked them all because we delivered it differently and packaged it the right way not to mention we picked the right content :thumbsup

Nice_Nick 03-19-2014 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruseful (Post 20003248)
Hey Shap, pleased to meet you :)

Is it true that with the proposed sale of YouPorn to Manwin, this gave you the confidence to sell twistys to them?

And in adult folklore, it's told that once, you were in a poker game and 30-60 seconds, you would get an email notification of a new member joining your site? Please tell me that's true!!

These are interesting questions and something you don't often see from a guest.

JayAllan 03-19-2014 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shap (Post 20018390)
Damn Fav restaurant. Hmmm

Super Rica Taqueria in Santa Barabara. Awesome little dive taco place. Best tacos i've had

Prime 112 skirt steak my fav steak

I was just at La Super Rica this week ;) Love that place! Let me know next time you are going to be in Santa Barbara.

Shap 03-20-2014 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nice_Nick (Post 20021330)
These are interesting questions and something you don't often see from a guest.

It wasn't a guest at the time. It's former owner of YouPorn and current owner of Ruseful

Alex911 05-15-2014 09:43 AM

Almighty Shap, I'd love to have your insights too :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

Which way does the wind blow?

No seriously, what do you think this industry will look like in 10 years?

visiono 10-22-2014 04:45 PM

how many active members do the top porn sites have ?

johnnyloadproductions 12-17-2014 05:02 PM

Shap, why do you like Gary Vaynerchuk so much? I like him too, but a bit loony and works through brute force.
Why Gary Vaynerchuk Is Flat Out Wrong

Yet, you watch many if not all of his videos, I can guess but what aspects of his personality draw you in the most?

Yes, I crawled up your ass smelled around, studied you for a bit but just thought of this offhand as Gary is starting to get more attention now. :)

Shap 12-19-2014 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex911 (Post 20087836)
Almighty Shap, I'd love to have your insights too :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

Which way does the wind blow?

No seriously, what do you think this industry will look like in 10 years?

Sorry this is late. I missed this question.

Tough to say. I haven't been out of the biz for 3 years now and I haven't seen actual sales figures of any of the companies so I may not be the best to say.

A few things I can say. There is so much porn being consumed for free that there is a greater and larger porn audience than ever before. The problem is (much like the app community) it's an audience that has been taught they don't have to pay to get decent quality and enormous quantity content. So bigger audience than ever but one that has the expectation that it should be free. To make money there will probably be two options. One have an outstanding product that is worth paying for or have a great sales hook and then rape the hell out of the credit card.

One big problem I see is banking. Porn has always been an undesirable business for reputable banks. I can see the next few years being a very hard road to travel from a banking perspective. To be honest the banking hassles are one of the reasons the industry isn't as attractive to me as it once was.

Shap 12-19-2014 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by visiono (Post 20262934)
how many active members do the top porn sites have ?

Good question. 100,000 range. Just a guess. I don't know.

Shap 12-19-2014 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyloadproductions (Post 20328824)
Shap, why do you like Gary Vaynerchuk so much? I like him too, but a bit loony and works through brute force.
Why Gary Vaynerchuk Is Flat Out Wrong

Yet, you watch many if not all of his videos, I can guess but what aspects of his personality draw you in the most?

Yes, I crawled up your ass smelled around, studied you for a bit but just thought of this offhand as Gary is starting to get more attention now. :)

I love his energy and honesty. It's infectious :)

The message he's been pushing for the past 10 years is almost exactly everything we did to be successful. It may not work for all but my approach to business, this industry, treating customers and clients, dealing with the public was very similar. I appreciate where he's coming from. I know it works.

As you said it clearly isn't for everyone. Doesn't work for everyone. But it worked for me and I like listening to where he thinks things are going now :)

The Porn Nerd 12-19-2014 03:35 PM

Hey Shap, I have a tube site opportunity for you. I am doing it anyway but with some investment it could become huge within a year. Simply no other tube site is currently doing what I am planning.

It's a shame about Sextube but this could be a way of topping that site's success. Reach out if interested. :)

Shap 12-19-2014 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd (Post 20331270)
Hey Shap, I have a tube site opportunity for you. I am doing it anyway but with some investment it could become huge within a year. Simply no other tube site is currently doing what I am planning.

It's a shame about Sextube but this could be a way of topping that site's success. Reach out if interested. :)

What are you looking for? $$$?

Mutt 12-19-2014 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shap (Post 20331252)
Good question. 100,000 range. Just a guess. I don't know.

I think you're way high now. Whatever number of members Twistys had when you sold I am sure it's at most 30% of that number now.

I'm not sure even Brazzers or RK would have 100,000 members, I'll never know but I'd say considerably less now.

DeanCapture 12-19-2014 04:04 PM

Happy Holidays Shap'ster! Hope you and the family are well :thumbsup

Socks 12-19-2014 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shap (Post 20331250)
One big problem I see is banking. Porn has always been an undesirable business for reputable banks. I can see the next few years being a very hard road to travel from a banking perspective. To be honest the banking hassles are one of the reasons the industry isn't as attractive to me as it once was.

You're so right so many times it's scary.

I flew to Las Vegas last month to open a business bank account. They happily opened it. I flew back and a week later it was closed. No reason given.

Then I drove to Buffalo the morning of the historic snowstorm, making sure I didn't miss a day. Many banks were closed, but we were able to deal with 2 banks. One of them opened an account for us on the spot and we've had no problems so far. The other just got back to me today and said they were "sorry, but..."

Now we have to go back to open a secondary account, because having only one is short sighted.

Nickatilynx 12-19-2014 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shap (Post 20331250)
Sorry this is late. I missed this question.

One big problem I see is banking. Porn has always been an undesirable business for reputable banks. I can see the next few years being a very hard road to travel from a banking perspective. To be honest the banking hassles are one of the reasons the industry isn't as attractive to me as it once was.

Absolutely true.

The only answer is...

Be the bank...

;-))

Nickatilynx 12-19-2014 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutt (Post 20331301)
I think you're way high now. Whatever number of members Twistys had when you sold I am sure it's at most 30% of that number now.

I'm not sure even Brazzers or RK would have 100,000 members, I'll never know but I'd say considerably less now.

Mutt mate , I love you dearly , "known" you since...well since half gfy were in school ,especially since back in the day you offered me "my own domain" ;-)))

There are still places doing 3000 joins...a day.

But as bobx used to say "hahahaha in the dark".

;-))

Mutt 12-19-2014 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nickatilynx (Post 20331422)
Mutt mate , I love you dearly , "known" you since...well since half gfy were in school ,especially since back in the day you offered me "my own domain" ;-)))

There are still places doing 3000 joins...a day.

But as bobx used to say "hahahaha in the dark".

;-))

old school! dating sites or you're telling me there are adult paysites doing 3000 joins a day still?

lol i offered you your own domain - like one you already owned? or one i owned?

disinfected 12-19-2014 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shap (Post 20331250)
One big problem I see is banking. Porn has always been an undesirable business for reputable banks. I can see the next few years being a very hard road to travel from a banking perspective. To be honest the banking hassles are one of the reasons the industry isn't as attractive to me as it once was.

Decline 05 "Do Not Honor"... cock blocking sales at it's finest :disgust

The Porn Nerd 12-19-2014 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shap (Post 20331276)
What are you looking for? $$$?

$$$ in exchange for a percentage of overall sales with a higher payback %, then a % forever thereafter. We're looking for traffic buys (bookmarkers).

$$$ for custom coding since this tube will need to do things other tubes do not yet do but I know are doable.

$$$ for 3-4 employees. My current Team can handle organic growth but not if we take it to the next level quickly.

Something radical: an ethical tube site with true content partners (and no user uploads). A tube site a struggling Industry can get behind and support. A tubesite that supports the only place new content comes from: paysites. No cannibalization, no bait-and-switch, no traffic re-directs, a true partnership.

But I will leave the real juicy details for a private conversation. :)

PS: I also have an "ace in the hole" when it comes to building the site that will help establish it within a very short time. :)

ohjulien 12-19-2014 11:57 PM

Ask Me Anything ;)

Well, here goes. . .

I am sure you have heard of water marking videos

My Question comes from the out side,

after getting permission to re-watermark videos from a source

and then getting banned from by copywright DMCA

and then seeing the same videos on the most popular tube sites

what is really going on ?

Pay to play?
ole buddy system?

Wish I was back in the day makin loot, manwin fucked me pretty hard

and who Moved my cheese?

ohjulien 12-22-2014 10:30 PM

ask me anything. . .

rintintin34 12-24-2014 01:20 PM

How are you today? :)

Shap 12-30-2014 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rintintin34 (Post 20337095)
How are you today? :)

Amazing! Yourself?

Shap 12-30-2014 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd (Post 20331649)
$$$ in exchange for a percentage of overall sales with a higher payback %, then a % forever thereafter. We're looking for traffic buys (bookmarkers).

$$$ for custom coding since this tube will need to do things other tubes do not yet do but I know are doable.

$$$ for 3-4 employees. My current Team can handle organic growth but not if we take it to the next level quickly.

Something radical: an ethical tube site with true content partners (and no user uploads). A tube site a struggling Industry can get behind and support. A tubesite that supports the only place new content comes from: paysites. No cannibalization, no bait-and-switch, no traffic re-directs, a true partnership.

But I will leave the real juicy details for a private conversation. :)

PS: I also have an "ace in the hole" when it comes to building the site that will help establish it within a very short time. :)

Not sure. I don't really want to invest any $$$ in the industry. I'd invest time but not $$$

Shap 12-30-2014 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohjulien (Post 20331670)
Ask Me Anything ;)

Well, here goes. . .

I am sure you have heard of water marking videos

My Question comes from the out side,

after getting permission to re-watermark videos from a source

and then getting banned from by copywright DMCA

and then seeing the same videos on the most popular tube sites

what is really going on ?

Pay to play?
ole buddy system?

Wish I was back in the day makin loot, manwin fucked me pretty hard

and who Moved my cheese?

to be honest I'm not sure what's happening. I feel like a lot of these are probably guys stealing videos without permission or abusing the use of the video. Imo here is how I think it should work.

Assume I own Twistys and you want my videos.
I give them to you to cut and upload to the tubes. If you watermark them it should be with a domain/site that is entirely twistys based. If you want to work with me and my videos I'm all for that. But don't use my videos to then turn around and send your visitors to another site or even worse to a competitor. Use my content to sell my stuff and I think everyone (including the surfer) is happy.

The Porn Nerd 12-30-2014 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shap (Post 20342568)
Not sure. I don't really want to invest any $$$ in the industry. I'd invest time but not $$$

Well you were looking for investment opportunities at some point....:)

I would love some of your time to discuss this idea. Maybe you could give some direction, contacts, insights, etc. We would be willing to discuss % for this consultation, too.



porn nerd cash AT Gmail if you would like to discuss.

nico-t 12-30-2014 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shap (Post 20342574)
I feel like a lot of these are probably guys stealing videos without permission or abusing the use of the video.

funny, this is how the company that bought yours earned their capital and paid you with it :upsidedow

Shap 12-30-2014 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nico-t (Post 20342749)
funny, this is how the company that bought yours earned their capital and paid you with it :upsidedow

Agreed!!

dillonaire 12-30-2014 05:13 PM

How many times a week do you pleasure yourself?

visiono 03-03-2015 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shap (Post 20331252)
Good question. 100,000 range. Just a guess. I don't know.

i heard the figure closer to only 8000 active. that is, no more the 8000 x $20/month average. there maybe 100,000 members that signup but not all year round. another words, no way a site gets 100,000 x $20 or $2 million per month. I actually was expecting 100,000 x $20 / month from top sites like brazzers and realitykings but i heard that is just not the case.
Anyone else knows?

visiono 03-03-2015 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutt (Post 20331301)
I think you're way high now. Whatever number of members Twistys had when you sold I am sure it's at most 30% of that number now.

I'm not sure even Brazzers or RK would have 100,000 members, I'll never know but I'd say considerably less now.

30,000 paying $20 every single month during the entire year would be fair then?
ie, $6 million gross monthly all year round?


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