Gamble their future? You call 1:10000 a future? With that ratio's i would def. gamble with my future because 1:10000 isn't a future!

See... "Yet another paysite which claims 1:300 conversions"? That's exactly what i mean with affiliates being clueless! Please send a mail to support@epoch and let my convertion-rates be confirmed by them... Really, i'm a bit tired of being implicit called a liar...

I do care about affiliates; never close accounts even if they send 1 visitor a day. Have cookies set at 30 days. I'm going to work with sliiing.com and going to do payments myself in the near future so i can drop minimum weekly payout to $12.50... etc... I even want to look at improving tracking. My bizz model is based on affiliates...

I would love to buy per clicks... On my bucketlist... "guarantee revenue to affiliates who send a certain volume?" Interested in that but not interested in shitty traffic everyone can buy for pennies... and then i'm going to pay for that shitty traffic? So they make profit by selling me shitty traffic that not converts and then scale that shit?

1:10000 is usually closer to the truth than 1:500 when a sponsor claims that these days. It's usually either lying or the sponsor is going by their stats which include all the type-ins. Affiliates deal with the shitty tracking and that is part of it. This industry hasn't been looking for ways to improve affiliate tracking in over a decade. In fact quite the opposite. They've been looking for ways to give the affiliate less.

The truth is if a program converts well affiliates will find it and stay with it. They will go full time promoting it if they can. When the money is no longer there they leave. Leave the sponsor, leave the industry, leave trying to sell using that model (the paysite). That's the bottom line.

The ratio's in my sig is pure and only the affiliate-ratios... so... why don't you take a minute and email epoch then? Heh? Don't have time for that?

Keeping affiliates is not difficult... getting new ones is... So... no... they don't find it. Yes they find it but won't sign up because it's not a ccbill program, or this, or that...

I can already get near those ratios for real selling other things besides paysites. Because the product isn't available for free on a tube. If it's true and you've had your sig like that for a while then you should have all sorts of affiliates by now. If not then it says either it's not true or the state of the industry is much worse for the affiliate and small sponsor than many want to believe.

I've watched sponsors in fringe niches go from 1:200 to making a sale once a month. There was another guy like you once who I promoted. He liked to post here too and bragged about his conversions on his program. I lost count of how many times he switched from ccbill to mpa3 to epoch to whatever the hell he uses now. With each change it got worse for me. From 1:500ish to 1:7000ish. At one point he even shut down his program with no notice. At some point the affiliate simply says "fuck it". There are bills that need to be paid regardless.

StrugglingBabes.com isn't on the tubes for free...

Like i said... if you contact epoch you don't have to comment all your "either it's not true" 's anymore. I have this sig here all the time and i don't see "all kind of affiliates" all over the place in my account! So... what does that tell you about the state of this industry?

Your stuff may not be there for free but others in the same niche are still there on the tubes by the thousands. Not only that but the consumer has been trained to get it for free. "Pay for porn?" It's a big running joke on Reddit, forums, and even the comments section in newspapers.

If what is in your sig is true then that tells me that affiliates have largely given up on the paysite portion of the industry. As you know, I can understand why. Good luck man. It's nothing personal. I'm only telling it as it is.

What i hear the most is: if you had ccbill i would have promoted you. They want one account and promote with that one account many paysites. So they reach minimum pay outs each week. That's why i want to use sliiing and do payments myself with hardly no minimums... A thousand small affiliates would still be huge for me.

What is concerning about the state of affiliate industry is... a lot of them worry about minimum pay outs which means most affiliates are not able to send more then a few hits a day. Tubes killed the affiliates not the paysite model.

A lot of my competitors have their content pirated on sites like myvideo.de, youtube and others... I have even send some of them mails to inform them and take them down. They don't act... I hope these idiotprograms get pirated till they are in the gutter and die off...
Better for me!

Welcome to the porn industry.

In the porn industry whenever there is someone that looks like they might have money... There are large groups of people following him around and singing his praises. In hopes that they might get a little bit of that money. They bring nothing to the table except their ablity to kiss his ass and talk shit about anyone that does NOT kiss the same ass they are currently kissing. (And these ass kissers are almost always broke looking for rent money while saying they are wealthy)

Porn is basically a whore industry and the way a whore makes their money is by whispering sweet things in the ear of others. In the old days it was basically the women that did it to get work. But around the 1990s it got bad with almost everyone becoming some form of ass kisser.

Word of advice

1) Keep your head down (especially on the Internet)
2) Never tell anyone how much money you have
3) Never trust anyone (including me)
4) Figure out how to use those that kiss ass and talk shit to put money in your pocket.

And most of all remember that those with the money got it because they do NOT tell anyone how they got and they tend not to share it.

True, true and true.

I am an affiliate with what I consider good traffic (US,UK,CAN,DE,AUS etc...)

My ratios get worse and worse with time and I work harder and harder trying to get more and more creative. Still they go down. I am still 'hanging in there' but really by a thread and am looking for an exit strategy. Tubes and google did this to me and likely many other affiliates.

I also want to comment on the offers I've gotten. I have tried many different programs with affiliate managers and program owners emailing me saying that they are SURE my traffic will convert with them. I try them and get 1:15,000 .... then they email back saying they don't understand. Then they are off to find another ... I took the risk and I got nothing out of it. They got free traffic. When I ask if they would be willing to compensate me if my traffic doesn't convert I either never hear from them again or they say they are not willing to and I was asking for 1:5000 guaranteed when they claim 1:500. Nothing unreasonable.

After that I simply choose not to reply. Then I get 2,3,4 follow up emails saying, "Hey! You never got back to me!" ... My internal response is, "I don't believe you anymore".

The paysites themselves have gotten worse and worse too. Not as many updates, nothing new and fresh - in terms of ideas. I had one program owner I liked and promoted who had many good ideas and was gung ho about them but never put them into action because, as he put it, "It's the same fuckin problem. Tubes will take my stuff and I won't profit".

Even dating is starting to tank although still much better than paysites.

Yep those reps are just doing their job. In the end all they have to do is enough to get the owner to continue paying them while at the same time not making a lot of waves. Not to say there aren't good reps out there. For a sponsor if they can get 500 affiliates to send them 1,000 uniques a month they have it made even if the individual affiliates all have to be on food stamps because they aren't making anything. It's a totally different game for the sponsor who also benefits from poor tracking. If a sponsor puts all their videos on all the tubes and is only making a few sales a day from millions of eyes lets be realistic you probably aren't going to do much better with your traffic. You have to be realistic about how much you can scale.

Dating and Cams are what is left for the adult affiliate but there exists the same problem as with paysites. There are free alternatives so at minimum this means over time profits will decrease (we need to learn our lesson from history). Two other issues exist. One, the tubes control a huge portion of sales here. Maybe 80-90%. Two, considerably less competition than what existed in the golden age of the paysites. Both add up to affiliates being more likely to get a worse deal than they otherwise might get due to lack of competition for affiliates.

I'm doing well with dating right now. It's not perfect but it's about what paysites were doing in 2007 and 2008 as far as ratios. In five years or so I'm sure it will be just as bad.

Some of the biggest affiliates ARE the tubes now.

Fact of the matter is, smaller affiliates are being pushed out. Programs are not going to stop putting up tube content, where they get solid sales, to accommodate smaller affiliates. That just doesn't make sense from a financial standpoint.

That said, I wish the tubes did not exist. I hate them. But they have the traffic and send solid sales. As more and more old school affiliates die off, it becomes increasingly more difficult to ignore the tubes.

I make money from a number of different places which is none of your concern. But i'm not the one trying to advise people on data I don't have access to (or in your case an anonymous 3rd party) or can't accomplish myself either, which makes your assumptions pure comedy.

Angry drunk? I don't drink and I am not an angry person I just call people out for their bullshit when I see it. It looks like your assumptions on people are just as bad as your business assumptions.

Thise kind of threads always reach page 2 :)

Most traffic comes from tube simply because is in tubes. But most of tube traffic is sold via adverts that the programs (and some affiliates) pay per impression/click or prepaid weekly/monthly spot, at the program's (or some affiliate) risk of non conversion. A tube rarely is directly an affiliate, it prefers (and succeeds) to sell for sure cpm / prepaid spot and let others risk.

I run cam program, not photo/vid program, so I can speak only for cams. I do keep the small affiliates! Most of my affiliates do less than $50 a day and that's ok, some do $50 a month or less. The tubes traffic I can access only by media buying at my risk, which in most cases cost more (lower conversion) than pay the affiliates per results. Also to handle media buy campaigns (remove all the spots and banners with low conversion as soon as detected on exoclick, trafficjunky, juicy-ads, ero-ads, traffichip , trafficholder etc.) it cost lots of time which is money again. Better to have lots of small affiliates, and pay them only for results (per sale, per free signup), than buy to tubes, I think the same it is for pics/video programs too, unless I miss something (exclude programs owned by tubes, I mean brazzers promoted on pornhub etc.).
The issue with affiliates it is the time spent in finding and neutralising the cheaters/carders - this is a pain esp. for CPA (8 out of 10 new affiliates are cheaters!), but not more a pain than manage media buying campaigns in my opinion, even if it could be some well done (tube) media buying could be more profitable than standard payouts to affiliates - honestly most of the time I can't get better results from tube media buying myself, than what I pay affiliates - believe it or not :)

I don't like tubes just as much as the other guy but I found a better way to deal with them.

When we find infringes, obviously we DCMA them, however... on ones that are willing to work with us and do a partnership, we work with them and provide vids that we approve of and continually dcma everything else that was not uploaded by us.

The problem with tubes is that they don't pre-moderate. I understand, people would rather upload elsewhere if that was the case but if they all followed suit, piracy would be less of an issue on tubes... and so would the underage content.

I also understand that tubes cannot compete in the market if all they have are 4min sponsor clips.. so we gotta meet half-way until it fizzles out (which it will, just like tgp did), it's just a part of biz that we have to "humor" for now... unfortunately.

Now, all that being said, I am finding that they have stepped up their theft games as of lately. Targeting specific site names as keywords and loading videos that are not even related to the terms. So, not only do they accept full-member uploads (which they know are illegally uploaded and hosted at that point) that we have to wade through and try to find an amicable partnerships to deter action against them, we also have to constantly search our site names to see which big tubes are stealing traffic, too...

I can understand your frustration AND I can understand the communication from aff reps. Large Programs (I consider anyone 'large' these days if they run an office and have more than 2 employees who work in said office) have 25k+ affiliates, and often have their own 'in-house' traffic sources they've been developing for years now which are finally starting to take hold (thus squeezing the little aff out even more). As I said, I can feel your frustration but, as a Program Owner, I can also understand a company doing what it has to do to stay in business. Everyone is being squeezed today.

Having said all that, MY Program (Porn Nerd Cash plus the upcoming Program launching very soon) I run myself. While I do have employees they are outsourced and work remotely. So, in the end, if you want to reach 'The Porn Nerd' you get....The Porn Nerd (Mark). Me. :)

So i will make you the offer you want: send 15,000 hits to my best sites and I will compensate you 3 full joins ($60) if you do not make more than that from the 15k hits. We'll give it a week and if less than 3 sales I will PayPal you the revenue.

THIS is how confident I am that the following websites WILL convert for you:

www.erosexotica.com
www.felluciablow.com
www.screwmywifeclub.com

and about 5-7 others I would recommend. But send hits to ErosExotica and Fellucia Blow then we can talk. You WILL be happy (either way).

I'm around on ICQ to discuss further. I am a small Program so I work with and interact directly with my affiliates on a daily basis. :) Hope you take me up on the offer. :)

all the big guys own tubes

So cute watching an insignificant and failed few strut and pound their chests as if it matters.

As programs have moved away from having affiliates for years now because of the high cost and low return and started focusing on internal traffic development, affiliates are going to boycott them to teach them a lesson.

That's just so damned cute.

Tubes are the biggest affiliates. I'm sure programs will happily give up all that traffic and sales for your collective 87 hits a day.

Say what you will about tube traffic, we have partners converting under 1:100 on some of their paysites.

Most of those that are successful on tubes understand that it needs some commitment. You can't just upload 2-3 random scene cuts, or worst: recycle some old TGP clips and hope to make a buck. They work on their profiles, ask for custom channels, rotate their banners and analyze their campaigns.
We're in this together. Tubes have a great advantage of being very community oriented. Make the most out of that.

TGPs are dead and it won't change. The whole concept of creating tens of spam pages daily and submit them was retarded.

Where there is demand there will be supply.. surfers wanted tubes and market gave them tubes.

Forget TGPs.

We appreciate the work our affiliates put in so we DONT give to tubes. Yes, we tested some but found it to be a bad bad idea. Most tubes are not in the biz of selling memberships. Their game is to get your content so they can sell cams, dating and pills. Just look at all the ads. They are not for the sites providing content.

Many large programs are pulling content from the partner programs. It's really just common sense. If a tube site has a database of your best videos in HD, why would anyone join?

I've had tube sites asking for complete photo sets so they could ad them. "this will send you 100's of joins a month". What a joke.

Affiliates: promote programs that don't give away their content.
Program owners: work with affiliates that are in the biz of selling memberships without requiring you to give away 10 min HD videos.


With that being said, I've seen a few tube that are in the biz of selling memberships. They are willing to take a 3-5 min clips and place your banners all over the page with you vid. This give you a fighting chance to make a sale. So I'm not anti-tube. Just too smart to buy into the current bullshit game most of them are playing
2014 is already looking good! The paysite/affiliate model is still strong for those who put in the work. People will PAY for good porn when they can't get it for free!

gl to tubes, programs who use tubes, and everything tube related, but those statements make me lofl. 1:100 at the tube average of 3% ctr = 1:3333 sales/views

1:100 on the tour I don't doubt in the slightest for certain types of content (and have got better than this myself with tube traffic), but the average reality is more like 1 sale per 20-30k views. Ofc tubes have huge traffic, so the $ are still there, but let's stop with this misconception that tube traffic is 'high quality', because it most certainly is not :thumbsup

It's quantity over quality, which is absolutely fine obviously when you are talking big numbers, but people need to remember that 3% ctr (clicked + typeins) :2 cents:

Indeed. It would work in theory, but due to many cunts-webmasters-shitmasters it would not happen.

But in 2001 or 2005 there was no practice to give FULL VIDEOS FOR ABSOLUTE FREE. A "little bit" different situation.

This is real, no bots. 1:5000 is very good ratio nowadays. Of course sponsors claim 1:500 and similar stuff, well.. :)

Exactly. They are not affiliates in the sense that we are talking about here.

And to the people who have been around awhile who say that they heard cries of doom & gloom since the dawn of the internet with every new way of promoting paysites (ex: newsgroups to tgp to freesites/blogs to video samples etc...) and think this is the same thing are forgetting 1 thing:

All methods above did not give away the full product. If a surfer wanted more he had to pay. Now he watches full video clips and has no need to pay for anything.

Thanks for the offer.

My traffic is looking for 'real' amateurs if you will (and even then ratios aren't always great) and your site erosexotica.com looks fresh, enticing but the actors still appear to be pros and my surfers will know it. I need sites like MoneyTalks and darering.com ...

Appreciate it though.

The thing is, Your not partners and not looking out for the paysites who give you all content.

When you give 50% of everything you earn when a sponsors video is played, Then you can call it a "partnership".

If you are still complaining about tubes ruining the industry in 2014 then you should just quit the biz today and find something else to do that doesn't require much in the way of mental effort or intellectual prowess.

I suggest working on your spatula skills to make sure you get the burger flip perfect, since there will always be a spot on the line for someone with those skills.

This describes the problem with so many affiliates imho.

They sign up for a gazillion programs, CCbill progs especially for so called convenience, then throw tiny bits of traffic spread out over tons of sites so they never really figure out what is working or not. They just hope to find a site that "sells like it is 1997" and pray that will solve all the problems.

They don't take the time to actually study the market, do some due diligence on the sponsor, or statistically analyze the traffic in any meaningful manner. Then they want to blame the sponsors, blame the tubes, blame everything... but themselves.

But you have to be real about things. Even if you really are somehow seeing 1:100 with any volume (wow?) you should visualize a giant funnel. MILLIONS of people are being exposed to your content and each action is filtering it further.

Lets say somehow you have a single movie on pornhub on page 2.

1. Surfer hits www.pornhub.com home page
2. Surfer sees the first page and either goes to the2nd page not being satisfied or clicks a couple movies first and still wants more and clicks to page 2.
3. Surfer sees your thumb and title text which interests them and clicks.
4. Surfer views the movie.
5. Surfer type-in the watermark url or possibly clicks the link from the banner, etc.

Each action is a filtering action. A giant funnel if you will. MILLIONS are seeing that thumb. Then they must click on it, view the movie, and then few click on to go from there.

Where am I going with this? Well if that tube gets 10 million uniques per day and you are on page one or two and you're making a sale or two a day then that's not really as great as you might think it is. It's taking the exposure of your content to say 5 million people before you make a sale. You're limited by how much you can scale. You can't go much further than exposing your content to more than 100 million people or so. You'll hit a ceiling. In fact the only place you can go is DOWN. There aren't more people to show your content to who have not been exposed. You've exhausted them and you're only getting a couple sales a day... not good.

+ the surfer has now been trained to expect it all for free. That wasn't the case in 2003. It's totally different. It would be like being the cable company in a town where everyone thinks they should get free basic cable and trying to charge them for it is a scam and joke. That's about where we are now. Some pay, sure. But most laugh, "Pay for porn!? You're kidding, right?" That's what we all did. That's why 1 million people view your video on pornhub before they buy. That's why 5 million people go over your thumb every day on pornhub and you only make one or two sales. Guess what? It'll only get worse.

My guess is you are directly involved with tubes in one way or another, Your insults mean nothing. And in a thread like this your sticking up for tubes, not sure that is very smart on your part as an affiliate manager for a program :2 cents:

I never claimed to not make money with my sites, and I never have and never will flip a spatula.

Considering that he has been in this business since before the internet and was pushing adult online since the very first year or two of adult online... maybe you should listen to him.


:2 cents::2 cents:

Spoken like the quintessential tube boy.

This will no doubt come as a revelation to you, but not everyone in this biz is so eager to suck the same shit encrusted dick that just ass fucked the entire industry.

Your mileage may and clearly does vary.
.

Ok, time to just make sure you know that you have zero clue.

Tubes are just one part of our traffic. We would never in a million years try to rely on one traffic source. You somehow always want to jump in and paint me as the tube poster child and that just isn't the case, no matter how inanely you try to assert otherwise.

However, I am not an anon like you. I am willing to stand behind what I say while you just want a chance to take pot shots when the opportunity presents itself. What, if anything, have you actually done in this industry? Obviously nothing worth standing up for and being held accountable as being top notch.

Oh, that's right, you are a spokesperson for the clueless losers that still have not figured out how to succeed in this era of the business. Kudos, your minions all look up to you because you are so good at cracking wise from the sidelines of the industry where the degree of your insignificance is your most notable feature.

Your guess would be... well... to put it as nicely as possible... just plain wrong. I won't say stupid, even though oftentimes when people make assumptions about things that turn out to be flat out wrong then the sum impression would be that you are not terribly intelligent. But I have no intention of insulting you, just setting the record straight, so you don't say anything else that might lead to the belief that you are a clueless moron.

I am not an affiliate manager. I am the owner of a company that has been around longer than many people on this board have even been alive. I have rolled with change after change in the industry. I have listened to every excuse why the industry is going to blah blah fucking blah.

Guess what?

The industry is doing just fine. People still pay for porn, by your admissions even you are getting paid. If you can do well enough without using tubes for traffic then more power to you. If you can do that then you shouldn't be complaining about tubes like they hurt you at all. Because, from my experience, the smart people in this biz are always staying on top of the changes and figuring out what works, and not worrying or complaining about what doesn't work. :2 cents::2 cents:

I totally agree.....

Steady on old chap !

No need to bring me into the argument :2 cents:

Wow ... massive generalization.

So all of us are dumb and lazy.

Thanks.

Yes I've never EVER done that!

You must know right! I just put up a banner and bitch about why people are not handing me money ...

Please dispense more of your almighty wisdom.

Listen to what? What has he said that is worth listening to? All he did was insult affiliates and say nothing productive whatsoever. I don't care if he invented the internet - that kind of talk is not worth listening to from anyone.

Partaking in the discussion with his position on the subject, while at the same time pointing out where he sees potential with or without tubes is a much more mature way to go.

Hello Kitten. Am I going to see you in PHX this year?
Hoping so.

The problem with affiliates (as evidenced in this thread) is that most have never had a real job, most aren't old enough or smart enough to understand that markets change over time, and none of them realize that "affiliate" is a dead end job.
The market, the internet, and the end user have all matured. There's simply little need for an affiliate in today's world. Are there a few programs that still use them? sure. Are there a few affiliates still making a little money? sure. I also drove past a coin operated phone booth the other day.
Dear affiliate, you will never make more than you are right now. Stop pretending you will and understand that all you are doing is putting off getting a real job and potentially starting a real career. You're wasting valuable time in your life that you really don't have. You are NOT one of the people like the very few of us who make good money here. You don't have the brains, skills, or work ethic to be one of us. Go get a real job and stop complaining about your fake one.

Listen to experience and long term success as a business and businessman.

What almost everyone in this biz does not understand is that like in any business, the only constant is change. We've seen a great deal of change since 96/97. We will keep seeing more change. You guys are still bitching about something that started 10 years ago. Pornotube went online in late 2004. After that, redtube, pornhub etc. And here you guys are still thinking that somehow, you'll brainstorm a way to make the biz easy and brainless again where you just submit a gallery to persiankitty.com and get 50,000 uniques converting at 1:100. It's NEVER going to happen. NEVER. The business has matured much faster than most of those participating in it.... and I suspect it will continue to do so. People stopped using the internet solely to search for porn well over a decade ago. All the pipe dreams of the failures of this industry require that people go back to a time before facebook, twitter, vine, pinterest, online banking and a million other things that people use the internet for that they didn't in 2001. Never going to happen. Ratios decline because of how people use the web, because the business matures. Because customers make more informed decisions that just clicking on a shady link and instantly paying 39.95.... and for 1000 other reasons that you guys continue to deny.

Serious business people are able to confront the facts and deal with them as they are. You guys are not serious business people. Sitting around day dreaming about putting the genie back in the bottle, is hardly a serious business plan. You're mostly part timers who can't even earn a part time wage, but want to complain about it and blame others every single step of the way... while pining for a time that hasn't existed in over a decade.

damn. I realized i said the same thing 12clicks did. haha. I guess thats 2 more posts that will go completely ignored by those whose best idea for a business plan is to create a time machine and go back 15 years so they stand a chance.

Well you can find at least three pages of his posts going back to around 2011 where he defends tubes and especially Manwin and Fabian. It's nothing new. It's all in search unless he calls on AVN to remove it.

I was not insulting you or any affiliates. I was calling out everyone that complains about something that obviously is making plenty of sales just because they can't figure out how or why they can't achieve similar results.

How many years of saying "tubes are going to kill the biz" are you willing to put up with before you realize it just is not true?

Yes, it is more difficult to get traffic these days because of Google refinements and algorithms that still favor the user upload mega tubes. That could change at any moment.

For now, you can still make $6K monthly from 24K uniques daily with a simple affiliate site of perhaps two dozen sponsors. It is just a matter of getting the traffic from other sources - Bing, Yahoo, FB, Twit, Pinterest, toplists, etc.

Anyone who says the affiliate model is dead is a tard.

I have never had AVN remove any posts. If you read my history, then you will know I have been a realist about this since day one. That doesn't mean I am some big promoter of tubes. It just means I accepted that they were a form of traffic and figured out how to protect our content and get traffic on and from them.

You sit on GFY and wax on and on about this and that and I must admit that just the way you write you come off as an authority. However, 99% of what you say is pure conjecture and your assertions are completely unfounded... and that makes you the blind leading the blind. So while it may puff up your ego to be king of the malcontents, you really aren't offering any practical advice or help at all. :2 cents::321GFY

Ok, but do you realize the core difference between all the previous excuses and this one?
All the previous times industry was not giving away FULL CONTENT FOR ABSOLUTE FREE.
So people who wanted to watch full videos still had to pay.


Yes, you are absolutely right - people still pay for porn. Just way way less often and relatively way way less people do that. That is simple fact. If X number of 100.000 porn surfers paid for it in 2005 nowadays that X is only a small fraction due to the mere fact they can get full product for fee. This is simple fact.
So saying that industry is just fine is a bit crazy or deceiving on purpose.
What you are saying is that smartest people still get the same size of the pie by working many times harder or smarter, but what you forget is that whole pie is smaller and most of it concentrated in the few hands of big players.

It is all fair, but you forget one important thing - which industry is giving away FULL thing that same industry is trying to sell? This is the only and main point we are saying. This is what destroyed industry, not all the things you posted. Just think about it once again - giving away the full content, the exact thing we are supposed to sell..