+ the surfer has now been trained to expect it all for free. That wasn't the case in 2003. It's totally different. It would be like being the cable company in a town where everyone thinks they should get free basic cable and trying to charge them for it is a scam and joke. That's about where we are now. Some pay, sure. But most laugh, "Pay for porn!? You're kidding, right?" That's what we all did. That's why 1 million people view your video on pornhub before they buy. That's why 5 million people go over your thumb every day on pornhub and you only make one or two sales. Guess what? It'll only get worse.

My guess is you are directly involved with tubes in one way or another, Your insults mean nothing. And in a thread like this your sticking up for tubes, not sure that is very smart on your part as an affiliate manager for a program :2 cents:

I never claimed to not make money with my sites, and I never have and never will flip a spatula.

Considering that he has been in this business since before the internet and was pushing adult online since the very first year or two of adult online... maybe you should listen to him.


:2 cents::2 cents:

Spoken like the quintessential tube boy.

This will no doubt come as a revelation to you, but not everyone in this biz is so eager to suck the same shit encrusted dick that just ass fucked the entire industry.

Your mileage may and clearly does vary.
.

Ok, time to just make sure you know that you have zero clue.

Tubes are just one part of our traffic. We would never in a million years try to rely on one traffic source. You somehow always want to jump in and paint me as the tube poster child and that just isn't the case, no matter how inanely you try to assert otherwise.

However, I am not an anon like you. I am willing to stand behind what I say while you just want a chance to take pot shots when the opportunity presents itself. What, if anything, have you actually done in this industry? Obviously nothing worth standing up for and being held accountable as being top notch.

Oh, that's right, you are a spokesperson for the clueless losers that still have not figured out how to succeed in this era of the business. Kudos, your minions all look up to you because you are so good at cracking wise from the sidelines of the industry where the degree of your insignificance is your most notable feature.

Your guess would be... well... to put it as nicely as possible... just plain wrong. I won't say stupid, even though oftentimes when people make assumptions about things that turn out to be flat out wrong then the sum impression would be that you are not terribly intelligent. But I have no intention of insulting you, just setting the record straight, so you don't say anything else that might lead to the belief that you are a clueless moron.

I am not an affiliate manager. I am the owner of a company that has been around longer than many people on this board have even been alive. I have rolled with change after change in the industry. I have listened to every excuse why the industry is going to blah blah fucking blah.

Guess what?

The industry is doing just fine. People still pay for porn, by your admissions even you are getting paid. If you can do well enough without using tubes for traffic then more power to you. If you can do that then you shouldn't be complaining about tubes like they hurt you at all. Because, from my experience, the smart people in this biz are always staying on top of the changes and figuring out what works, and not worrying or complaining about what doesn't work. :2 cents::2 cents:

I totally agree.....

Steady on old chap !

No need to bring me into the argument :2 cents:

Wow ... massive generalization.

So all of us are dumb and lazy.

Thanks.

Yes I've never EVER done that!

You must know right! I just put up a banner and bitch about why people are not handing me money ...

Please dispense more of your almighty wisdom.

Listen to what? What has he said that is worth listening to? All he did was insult affiliates and say nothing productive whatsoever. I don't care if he invented the internet - that kind of talk is not worth listening to from anyone.

Partaking in the discussion with his position on the subject, while at the same time pointing out where he sees potential with or without tubes is a much more mature way to go.

Hello Kitten. Am I going to see you in PHX this year?
Hoping so.

The problem with affiliates (as evidenced in this thread) is that most have never had a real job, most aren't old enough or smart enough to understand that markets change over time, and none of them realize that "affiliate" is a dead end job.
The market, the internet, and the end user have all matured. There's simply little need for an affiliate in today's world. Are there a few programs that still use them? sure. Are there a few affiliates still making a little money? sure. I also drove past a coin operated phone booth the other day.
Dear affiliate, you will never make more than you are right now. Stop pretending you will and understand that all you are doing is putting off getting a real job and potentially starting a real career. You're wasting valuable time in your life that you really don't have. You are NOT one of the people like the very few of us who make good money here. You don't have the brains, skills, or work ethic to be one of us. Go get a real job and stop complaining about your fake one.

Listen to experience and long term success as a business and businessman.

What almost everyone in this biz does not understand is that like in any business, the only constant is change. We've seen a great deal of change since 96/97. We will keep seeing more change. You guys are still bitching about something that started 10 years ago. Pornotube went online in late 2004. After that, redtube, pornhub etc. And here you guys are still thinking that somehow, you'll brainstorm a way to make the biz easy and brainless again where you just submit a gallery to persiankitty.com and get 50,000 uniques converting at 1:100. It's NEVER going to happen. NEVER. The business has matured much faster than most of those participating in it.... and I suspect it will continue to do so. People stopped using the internet solely to search for porn well over a decade ago. All the pipe dreams of the failures of this industry require that people go back to a time before facebook, twitter, vine, pinterest, online banking and a million other things that people use the internet for that they didn't in 2001. Never going to happen. Ratios decline because of how people use the web, because the business matures. Because customers make more informed decisions that just clicking on a shady link and instantly paying 39.95.... and for 1000 other reasons that you guys continue to deny.

Serious business people are able to confront the facts and deal with them as they are. You guys are not serious business people. Sitting around day dreaming about putting the genie back in the bottle, is hardly a serious business plan. You're mostly part timers who can't even earn a part time wage, but want to complain about it and blame others every single step of the way... while pining for a time that hasn't existed in over a decade.

damn. I realized i said the same thing 12clicks did. haha. I guess thats 2 more posts that will go completely ignored by those whose best idea for a business plan is to create a time machine and go back 15 years so they stand a chance.

Well you can find at least three pages of his posts going back to around 2011 where he defends tubes and especially Manwin and Fabian. It's nothing new. It's all in search unless he calls on AVN to remove it.

I was not insulting you or any affiliates. I was calling out everyone that complains about something that obviously is making plenty of sales just because they can't figure out how or why they can't achieve similar results.

How many years of saying "tubes are going to kill the biz" are you willing to put up with before you realize it just is not true?

Yes, it is more difficult to get traffic these days because of Google refinements and algorithms that still favor the user upload mega tubes. That could change at any moment.

For now, you can still make $6K monthly from 24K uniques daily with a simple affiliate site of perhaps two dozen sponsors. It is just a matter of getting the traffic from other sources - Bing, Yahoo, FB, Twit, Pinterest, toplists, etc.

Anyone who says the affiliate model is dead is a tard.

I have never had AVN remove any posts. If you read my history, then you will know I have been a realist about this since day one. That doesn't mean I am some big promoter of tubes. It just means I accepted that they were a form of traffic and figured out how to protect our content and get traffic on and from them.

You sit on GFY and wax on and on about this and that and I must admit that just the way you write you come off as an authority. However, 99% of what you say is pure conjecture and your assertions are completely unfounded... and that makes you the blind leading the blind. So while it may puff up your ego to be king of the malcontents, you really aren't offering any practical advice or help at all. :2 cents::321GFY

Ok, but do you realize the core difference between all the previous excuses and this one?
All the previous times industry was not giving away FULL CONTENT FOR ABSOLUTE FREE.
So people who wanted to watch full videos still had to pay.


Yes, you are absolutely right - people still pay for porn. Just way way less often and relatively way way less people do that. That is simple fact. If X number of 100.000 porn surfers paid for it in 2005 nowadays that X is only a small fraction due to the mere fact they can get full product for fee. This is simple fact.
So saying that industry is just fine is a bit crazy or deceiving on purpose.
What you are saying is that smartest people still get the same size of the pie by working many times harder or smarter, but what you forget is that whole pie is smaller and most of it concentrated in the few hands of big players.

It is all fair, but you forget one important thing - which industry is giving away FULL thing that same industry is trying to sell? This is the only and main point we are saying. This is what destroyed industry, not all the things you posted. Just think about it once again - giving away the full content, the exact thing we are supposed to sell..

as is the case with every mature market.

Far-L is right, you're not.

How is this not true?
Random numbers just to make a point:
2005:
take 100.000.000 surfers, 1000 affiliates and 1.000.000 sales. 1000 sales for each affiliate.
2014:
take 100.000.000 surfers, 1000 affiliates and 50.000 sales. 900 affiliates 25 sales each, 80 affiliates 50 sales each and 20 affiliates 1175 sales each.

You are taking example of those top 20 affiliates and say "industry is fine", damn even "better then ever" - 1175 sales is more than 1000 sales from 2005.
While forgetting the main thing what we are discussing that whole pie went from 1.000.000 sales to 50.000 sales. Again numbers are random just to illustrate what people are saying when complaining about tubes stealing sales.

Some points among the many, that people tend to willfully ignore

1) Free content has ALWAYS been available in any quantity since there were nothing online but bbs systems
2) Free content has ALWAYS been the primary marketing tool which drives sales. Your same argument was being made in 1998 about image sets.
3) Content has always been pirated on a wide scale
4) Tube sites are MOSTLY sponsor videos, not full length videos
5) Tube content is NOT high quality
6) Paysite content IS high quality
7) Tube traffic converts quite well which is why it sells for a premium price

The fact is simple. Tube traffic converts quite well. That simple fact, makes all other arguments about "full length videos" irrelevant.

If your life narrative is going to be "things are bad and only getting worse"... then of course, you are going to see nothing but facts that support that. However, when someone like Ruseful comes and shows everyone in great detail how he went from zero to 300 employees using ONLY tubes, he gets ignored or called a liar.

Your level of success in anything, including this business is always exactly what you tell yourself its going to be.

So many of you seem to be focusing on something that you can't do. Why?

Focus on what you can do. It just might happen.

The thing is, you don't know thats the case at all. There is no hard data to support anything that suggests thats even remotely true. People whining and pining for the "good ole days" doesn't count as fact and data.

Even AVN Theo estimated a drop from a high of $15 billion to $10 billion.

https://gfy.com/showthread.php?t=1135887

Do you have any idea how baseless the original number was in the first place?

XBIz, AVN, Forbes, ABC, Rolling Stones... they all seem to say the same thing. DECLINES. Or maybe they are all trolls? The denials reminds me of dealing with a drug addicted relative of mine. Admitting the problem is the first step.

You have completely missed what should be patently obvious.

I am going to give you some serious advice so do with it what you will but I know it will help...

First... you need to realize that you should not be focused on content. Focus on user experience and the content becomes valuable. :2 cents::2 cents::2 cents:

Next...

The crux of the biscuit is the the apostrophe. Thank Frank Zappa for that one.

I do well, promoting my sponsors on my tube network. I don't think that every affiliate is shady... i value all of my sponsors. And i convert well. I think it is absolutely the relationship that the sponsor has with his/her affiliate in the first place.

All the media sources you cite went off the PR that AVN put out. None of them actually ever dug into the information and trust me they would not have had to dig deep to realize those numbers were based on huge assumptions.

Denial?

Tell me about it.

Netvideogirls has been around for years. That is the content that Ruseful saw worked incredibly well on Youporn. He set out to emulate its success. He used primarily tubes for his traffic because he understood the "Moneyball".

Are you denying that anyone else with half a brain couldn't follow a similar recipe for success?

A good place for affiliates that feel the same way about tubes to see who they should promote or not. Be nice to see how high and mighty these people act if all affiliates who didn't use tubes cut them out.

Come on, son. :1orglaugh

Cut them out of what? 5% of their sales and 95% of their headaches?

Squealer, 12Clicks, Far-L,

Why is it that not only are affiliates disappearing, content producers hurting, traffic sellers taking a hit .... BUT ...

but ... PROGRAM OWNERS are also shutting down their businesses???

If it was just a tube problem like us affiliates are bitching about then the above peoples would all be fine (save affiliates). But that's not the case. How many programs have shut their doors in the last few years?

Even ND, BB and the other bros are not what they once were. I've seen many programs that I have personally promoted either shut down or just stop updating altogether.

That's actually what Paul Markham said. And I agreed with him.

One thing I think it is important for affiliates (and sponsors) to realize is that typically you are providing significantly more revenue to the sponsor than you are getting credit for.

1. Bad tracking where the sale will never get credited to you but the sponsor will still get the sale.
2. The sponsor is using email marketing to sell the stage 1 joins you send for free without giving you credit. This can include dating or their other sites.
3. Users signup for a month or two. Cancel and come back again. It all goes to the sponsor.
4. Cookies not being set due to incognito mode, etc.
5. User types in the url they see on the promo content and you never get credit.

There are many sponsors out there benefiting from affiliate traffic more than they believe and they do not realize it. This helps explain the mystery where the sponsor converts 1:400 but the affiliates all do 1:7000. If you the affiliate take down all your sites or links it will hurt many of these sponsors more than they believe it will.

Sent you a PM.

I make sales from tube submissions for BB and ND that were done almost 2 years ago by my guys. Still converts just as well as ever. Me and my friends used to laugh our asses off at people complaining about "saturated content" when sites that were ranking in google for ND / BB site names were converting as solid as ever.

Again, these arguments are at this point, well over a decade old. Why are programs going out of business? Programs have always gone out of business. More came and went in the first 5 years of online adult than have been created in the following 10.

That is a simple fact.

There are 1000 ways that things have changed and you guys (at your own expense) have became fixated on and obsessed with only one... One which you feel you can blame for everything. A single catch all excuse for your failures.

Your reality is what you make it. If you've decided things are bad and only getting worse... Then that becomes your reality. It's clealry not the same for everyone as others are busy making money. I glanced at my stats today and see I plan ought traffic from well over 2500 sites, mostly tubes and tube scrapers. I spent zero time blaming them and all my time lea ring to better monetize the traffic. That's why these conversations are comical. You guys could download all BB/ND videos (approx 4k), watermark hem and submit those same clips over and over and in a few months be making 30-40-50k a year with "saturated" contend posted to "worthless tube sites with traffic that doesn't convert". But hey... why work for it?

Also, I just looked at my ppc stats. One simple test campaign on xhamster and I've doubled my spend, making about 300 profit. That's before a single tweak, adjusting bids, testing offers and with a very low traffic volume. That's how "useless" tube traffic is.