I was at dinner with some people in Phoenix (or Vegas). The waiter was all about giving his speech about all the specials and how the individual ingredients had been grown, gathered and brought in bu the locals via mule or yak. Included in the specials was organic chicken, raised by a local woman, that had been bottle fed milk.

Biggest difference between the farmed locally eggs and the commercial ones are this.
1. Color - Not only do you get shell variation (whooptie) you also get more yellow yolks.
2. Freshness - the farm eggs are much fresher. You can see this more when and if you separate the yolk from the white. You can actually toss the yolk from hand to hand without it breaking. This also leads to eggs that do not run as much, have a higher yolk when done sunny side up etc.

That is about it. Unless you add in the possibility of hormones, antibiotics, etc. that could be carried in the egg. I personally do go with the farmed locally ones, primary cause I get them down the street and they are 4 for a dollar, 5 if I bring my own container.

Yes animals raised for food are food. Still do not buy the argument about raising them in fucked up ways. This just works for all sorts of products we consume even beyond feed animals. Example's are that commercial turkeys have more breast meat but now taste like nothing and can not even breed themselves anymore. Some caged animals are also more prone to sickness that requires treatment using antibiotics and shit that can end up making certain viruses even stronger and more resistant, not to mention when assorted flu's have jumped from avian to human.

There are also plenty of commercial farms that have always done stuff the proper way, while keeping production up, sickness down without wide use of antibiotics, and not having to stuff as many animals into a space as possible. Meanwhile they also are price competitive.

... and this thread shows just how hosed California is.

BadDog - I hear you on the influx to California and I feel for you. This mentality flocks to where it is allowed to fester and then it envelopes everything around it... and pushes the sane people out and the remaining natives to laughter/insanity.

Good luck to them. Several states have passed the same type of prop.

They will not move. Just like about everyone who says they will move if so and so is elected or whatever.

You move and then your transport costs go up. Therefor you end up in no better of a situation than you left. Assuming as people state that it is price/consumer driven. Transport, packaging, and feed are the big costs.

Instinct is your body's way of reacting to an emotional stimulant. They react in unison. When someone comes at you with a knife, your emotion is fear and your instinct is to run. This is no different than the fear a bird has when you get too close to it.

Lets take training an animal for example. When you teach your dog to go to the bathroom outside, that is his emotions at work. Whether it's a fear of being punished or the joy of receiving a reward, his emotional receptors dictate how he reacts. There is no instinct to only poop on a leash when being walked. If an animal such as that only worked off their biological instinct, they would shit wherever they wanted to.

Of course the booby doesn't have one partner for life because they are "in love". Just as we aren't monotonous because of "love". There is no such thing as love. It's just chemicals and neurotransmitters reacting in your body to certain situations. When we buy chocolates or write a poem to a loved one, it's no different from a bird spreading his feathers or bowing his beak in courtship. We are both doing it to satisfy an emotion that was necessary for our survival.

You mention mourning, but that is more of a cultural phenomenon. It's impossible to judge the emotions of other animals in these situations. For instance, early homo sapiens didn't mourn the death of fellow members of their tribe. When we did start having rituals, they evolved culturally over time. This didn't mean that our early ancestors didn't feel sadness, they just didn't express it the way we do. But there are examples of animals mourning their dead. Elephants touch the skulls and tusks of their dead with their trunks and feet.

You are trying to differentiate us because we are self-aware of our emotions. But it doesn't deny the fact that animals have them. They have fear, hunger, trust, respect, joy, and others just like us. We share many of the same chemical makeup and neurotransmitters.

But emotions are beside the point that some of us were making. This is also about pain. These animals are tortured and put in positions where they suffer through constant pain. I guarantee that if your dog came to you whimpering with a broken leg, you wouldn't laugh it off and call it his "instincts". You would take him to a vet and do what you could so that he doesn't have to feel that pain. Heck, you probably would get him some treats too. So why not show the same common decency to another animal?

LOL Obviously the irony in my post was lost on you totally.
Isn't it ironic to you that people are worried about how an animal is treated, before it's head is chopped off and we eat it?

I only buy free range eggs and I pay more for them, and I'm fine with that. Hopefully the egg layer still had it's beak! :thumbsup

I think every animal should be treated in a humane manner. Doesn't being at the top of the food chain make it our duty as responsible humans to treat all other animals humanely? Imagine if babies were tasty and we kept women in rooms big enough for a bed. Baby pops out and they inseminate her again. Is that really any different?
Oh, but she's a person, right? She has feelings. Unlike a "dumb animal". How presumptuous of us to think we even begin to know anything about animals and how they think.

Guess I shouldn't be surprised since there's millions of planets in our universe and we think we are the only intelligent life in it... and I say intelligent loosely as I've been reading gfy for years and brains is something I find in short supply around here. :1orglaugh

I realise you're prepared to argue this to the death, but I'll have one more go anyway. It's my understanding that most responsible pet owners take their dogs to a vet who ensures that proper anaesthesia be administered before clipping tails or bobbing ears. My own dog had a few minor surgical procedures done in his lifetime and I can assure you he was well looked-after and prepped to my satisfaction before anything was done to him.

If the beak-snipping and extreme confinement isn't necessary (and I'm quite sure it isn't) then why condone it? Nothing is laughable about abuse.

The last word is of course yours. Enjoy. :D

Human baby boys get their weenies operated on w/o anesthesia. But in 7 years, the hen laying chickens in CA will legally be required to have a few extra inches in their cages ;)

Again, Proposition 2 does nothing to provide cage free, free range or even stop the removal of beaks. It was a fluff proposition if you're truly concerned about the well being of the animals.

one baby step at a time and perhaps awareness will improve as well

Go google pics of little boys faces when that's being done.
My son has everything he was born with.
If it wasn't meant to be there, it wouldn't be.

You don't believe in evolution I guess.

What are tonsils there for?

LOL Chopping off half of your son's cock is evolution now?

The tonsils are areas of lymphoid tissue on either side of the throat.
Like other organs of the lymphatic system, the tonsils act as part of the immune system to help protect against infection. In particular, they are believed to be involved in helping fight off pharyngeal and upper respiratory tract infections.

You're probably right, and I'm probably inclined to agree with you, but aside from all that my point really is that if something they're doing to the animals is unduly cruel and basically unnessesary then they should stop doing it, that's all. I'm completely in agreement with After Shock Media on this.

I don't see where what I said is something to argue about. Lloyd, you listening?


That's not really what you think cirumcision is, is it?

Well what do you call removing the skin that goes around the outside?
Fashionable mutilation?

I call it removing the skin, not "chopping half his cock off". If that were the case then my dick would have been 16" had it not been done to me.


Btw, yes I'm cut, no regrets at all here.

All these side arguments are useless. I thought this discussion was about the treatment of food animals, which I think should be treated as humanely as possible while they're alive and then killed quickly with as little suffering as possible.

I don't see that being too much to ask.

Way to miss the point . . . and I was not talking about to circumsize or not to circumsize.

My point is that humans have not always looked like we do now (a lot less hair for example). Do you know why we used to have more hair than we do now? Evolution. The point being that just because we have it today doesn't mean we will have it tomorrow.

Soooo.. your point was that 500 yrs from now, dicks won't have the skin on the outside because we keep chopping it off? *scratches head*

Tonsils . . .

100 sad things..............:(

so you are saying that we evolved from animals that you are also arguing are just robots? :error

What about them? They serve a purpose. They are removed from some people because they get infected.

eh...... hrm..

Sad about prop 8.

As far as prop2 I voted yes. I think it's more of the younger crowd that is voting this way. I try to eat organic when I can. I'll pay the whole foods prices & I recycle. Even if they are gonna be food they shouldnt need to suffer before the time comes.
I guess I am sorta a tree hugger though. Ive got trashcans for each: plastic, glass and aluminum, paper. At this rate we should all be doing this. That's good 'nuff for me.


http://raspberet.files.wordpress.com.../protester.jpg

Through the roof? I buy free range eggs and chicken. For the eggs, a cage-egg carton is usually about AU$3.50-$4.00. The free-range eggs are between $5.00 and $6.00. Really not that big of a deal. Plus the ones I get are free of growth hormones and anti-biotics. The yolk is generally darker and has more flavour. No idea why that is. I can only assume it's 'cause of the lack of anti-bioitics and growth hormones in the hens. As for chicken, typical supermarket prices for chicken breast are between $12 and $14 per kilo. I just picked up some free range chicken breast for $16/kilo.

My point is the difference in price is not that significant. And if that sort of thing were mandatory, the economies of scale would suggest the price would come down. Not as low as it is currently, but probably not too far off.

You have any idea how many Congressional hearings they would have if eggs went up $2.00 a dozen here? :1orglaugh

Yeah but if the whole market was free range, straight away the prices would come down as they'd need to be more competitive. Right now, they can charge more because concerned people are prepared to pay more. When everything on offer is free range, it's a level playing field and competition will do what it does.

Couple that with the economies of scale and I really don't think there'd be that big of a difference in the price in the long run.

i guess they should be drunk when they knock their heads off :1orglaugh

That was a joke right? How much space do you think we have just to let chickens roam around?

Well then only California natives should have to pay state taxes. As long as the state takes a piece of my paycheck I have a say in what goes on, I'm paying for it.


Humans are not masters of the planet, we're stewards. We can certainly eat animals and use their hides for clothing, but we have a responsibility to take care of them as well.



Animals, whether you believe they have emotions or not, are living beings. As such they deserve the respect that all living things deserve. They should not be mistreated or tortured. We can have eggs and meat without being cruel and driven solely by profit.

that said, this prop is a difficult one because we have to weigh out the need to treat animals humanely with allowing farmers to earn a living.

Just because you would not like to be stuck in a cage does not mean the chicken gives a damn. :2 cents:

We are still killing them, and... eating.
I don't know, all this has deeper roots!