Education failed to teach anyone civics in the last two decades it would seem.

Re: education being a right, I think it is something that absolutely ought to be an iron-clad right in this country. The government should not only subsidize it but they should bailout every student loan on the books. Not only would this be the smartest investment they could make but it would also help boost the economy by freeing up a lot of money for people to pump back into the economy. That the govt is spending more on bombs and prisons is repugnant. Education for everyone is the only hope of getting us out of this morass.

Not everyone gets to be an astronaut, that's true. However, just because someone doesn't excel in a traditional academic environment doesn't mean they shouldn't get an education. Germany is an excellent example of a system where students who aren't cut out for the university are sent to vocational and trade schools to get an education after their compulsories.

As for health care, while it isn't a right in this country I don't know best to solve this. I don't want to see anyone sick or dying needlessly, but I also don't think it's fair to ask the people carrying the largest part of the tax burden to take on more. It won't be long before the immigration issue comes up after this passes and then we're going to be talking about adding 20 million illegal immigrants onto this plan.

ok, then what are you personally willing to give up for healthcare?
if its so important, what will you give up?

I need to read up on my Robin Hood. Anyways, you're a bastard, you know what I meant. :)

More than just that, a lot of people with excellent grades still can't afford to go to prestigious universities. The whole point of my rant is, life isn't fair. We have a free market here in America, most of our doctors aren't governments workers and neither are most of our professors. You aren't entitled to either, you have to work hard and make money to survive and prosper in this great country.

Bingo, no one is saying the system is perfect. As soon as someone is against the proposed health care overhaul some idiot comes out of the wood-works to call us rich white people who support greedy insurance corporations.

Oh is it really? Wow, how many tokes of your bong did you take this morning before you figured I didn't realize that.

Oh my god, you greedy white rich piece of garbage. :winkwink:

This is one of the emotional appeals used by ignorant liberals.

Same as everything else - a fair tax taken out of everyone's paycheck. You pay for healthcare anyway, so why not just cover it like all other security issues - like military spending... how do we pay for that?

Why do we need to fight insurance companies and pay for this coverage separately?

If I lose 30% from each paycheck, instead of 25% plus a health insurance payment, I would prefer the simplicity of the slightly higher tax - you pay either way.

This would actually be more fair for everyone, as everyone would pay into the pool, like for basic education, and for roadwork, and everything else you guys claim to hate, gets paid for now.

If you are rich, and you want better coverage, I am certain you will be allowed to pay more for it, as the wealthy will always get better services. Doesn't mean the have-nots should be screwed over.

I think this buffoon has contradicted himself more in 1 year than Bush did in 8.

For very few health care is something paid for by the recipient of the care. Whether in the US or in the EU, where we have a National Health schemes. Most pay for health care some way or another. The difference in the systems between the US and EU is our insurance is collected through taxes on our wages in the EU, in the US it's run be big insurance companies with them taking out a massive profit.

My Mother paid UK taxes most of her life and now she's retired and diabetic her health care is not subject to Medicaid it's her right to get health care for free is something she's paid for. The same with me and my cancer or Eva with her near fatal car crash. We were not asked for insurance cover or presented with a bill. We've already paid. This also goes for any drugs we need.

I would would wager we in the EU pay less per person for health care than the US. And most of us are glad of that. We prefer the inefficiencies of a Government run health care system against one run tor profit and shareholders. Which ever way it's run you will have to pay for it, the idea that Government can take on the extra cost without taxes rising is absurd. But you stop paying a private insurance company instead.

Judging by your followup post, you lied.

No politically biased bullshit

Why should I? As long as they stay off my lawn.

A History Of Reconciliation

For 30 years, major changes to health care laws have passed via the budget reconciliation process. Here are a few examples:

1982 — TEFRA: The Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act first opened Medicare to HMOs

1986 — COBRA: The Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act allowed people who were laid off to keep their health coverage, and stopped hospitals from dumping ER patients unable to pay for their care

1987 — OBRA '87: Added nursing home protection rules to Medicare and Medicaid, created no-fault vaccine injury compensation program

1989 — OBRA '89: Overhauled doctor payment system for Medicare, created new federal agency on research and quality of care

1990 — OBRA '90: Added cancer screenings to Medicare, required providers to notify patients about advance directives and living wills, expanded Medicaid to all kids living below poverty level, required drug companies to provide discounts to Medicaid

1993 — OBRA '93: created federal vaccine funding for all children

1996 — Welfare Reform: Separated Medicaid from welfare

1997 — BBA: The Balanced Budget Act created the state-federal childrens' health program called CHIP

2005 — DRA: The Deficit Reduction Act reduced Medicaid spending, allowed parents of disabled children to buy into Medicaid

I am surprised that no one has pointed out the doctor shortage the US has. Dotors are threatening to retire or not accept insurance if this passes. Then you would have doctors that want cash only. The quality of care will go down and the wait to see a doctor will be longer. To see a specialist it can already take a couple of months.

And what happens when you choose to retire, or you lose your job or your family needs more care then a company run for profit decides you're too expensive to keep paying out on?

Yeah, I already fessed up to that hypocrisy earlier in this very thread.

if that was how it worked, that would solve one small part of it but as with all else, the rich pay for the lion's share. "everyone" will NEVER pay into the pool under obama. THAT is a problem.

How can it be a "privilege" or a "right" lol

Has the govt. taken so much control of our lives that we can't do anything for ourselves anymore?

When I was growing up...nobody I knew had "health insurance" That was something for "rich people"

When we got sick, we went to the doctor. And NO, you didn't have to take out a fucking bank loan to do so.

There is a reason that "Medical Tourism" is so big now. And that reason is because our govt., the insurance companies, the pharmacies, and the hospital industry have conspired to make prices for medical treatment in the U.S. the most expensive in the world.

Fucking money grab.

Take a look at this:
http://www.indian-medical-tourism.co...-benefits.html

yup, once the government starts regulating what those evil "rich" doctors make, medical school will no longer be an investment the smart will make.

Amen to that dude.

Both systems suffer with a shortage of doctors, you can never have enough until you get to a one to one ratio.

But don't threat they wont all quit or refuse to work, they might lose they're medical cover. :winkwink:

Reading this thread it's clear how some are misguided about the cost of medical care and how it's paid for.

Also some have a "I'm alright Jack so screw those who are not" attitude. Maybe they should think about what happens to them if the tables turned on them.

I see some pretty good things in that group
It will interesting when the budget comes out today for the bill, it has to reduce the deficit to be able to use the Reconciliation. thats probably why they added the student loan thing.
Watching FOX at 3pm pacific for the presidents interveiw with Bret Baier

It's not a simple yes or no/right or privilege question until the semantics are clarified.

Access to health care and the freedom to choose your health care provider is in deed a right.

Having the government provide it is not.

Right = No one can stop me from __________
Privilege = You can/can't get that treatment or see that doctor

Does anyone see how access to health care which is currently a right actually goes to privilege with this plan?

Most Americans don't have health care unless you are talking about people who are victims of violent crimes or unexpected accidents that are visible and require immediate assistance. Check ups are needed to catch illnesses in the womb that not only saves lives but keep down the cost of major health care at the last minute when we are trying to prove how human we are by treating the poor and taking every last dime out of the hands of the middle class for a major illness.

It's funny that the people who make minimum wage and have no or minimal coverage are against an overhaul of the system like it matters if they have the latest treatment or technology that they will never have used on them anyway.

All judges who can sentence people to prison should do time in jail. All people who can start wars should serve time in the military and in war, and all people against everyone having health care should die slowly of some brutal painful disease!

Sooo, you realized you had a sarcasm fail but posted anyway?

Is anyone in the world "against" everyone having "health care" Of course not.

But I'd make an argument that the MAJORITY of people are against being forced to buy health insurance that they shouldn't have to have need of.

Bottom line is REAL health care reform would address the insane costs that we are forced to pay in the U.S. for hospital stays, doctor visits, and prescription drugs.

The govt and the media are pretty much doing one of the oldest con jobs in the world by distracting people with "insurance" In the end, all that will happen is the insurance companies are going to get 10's of millions of new customers.

It won't matter one bit to any of us as far as going to the doctor is concerned. His price will still stay the same or even go higher. My insurance rates will stay the same or probably go higher. My tax rate will go higher. Prescription drugs will still cost 10 times what everybody else in the world pays.

I don't see where this is going to make "health care" costs change one bit at all.

Rule #1. Don't retire if you can not afford to do so. I have NEVER relied on others, and I can not ever see anything changing that.

I was watching an interview on the Daily Show last night. Some British actor. He was asked what people thought about the health care system in the UK and he mentioned that doctors were not very happy with it because they work long hours for crappy pay.

Of course, you Communists don't really care about that I guess.

Anyone who thinks they are entitled to ANYTHING for free just because they live is poorly misguided...

Anyone who thinks it's ok to take one man's payment for his labor and give it to someone else because they are less motivated or fortunate is also poorly misguided...

These are two things that the founding fathers fought tooth and nail against... every word of the documents written to establish this country are against these two notions...

What part of the UK is communist? Just curious. I actually saw a doctor from the UK on Micheal Moore's documentary who said he was very content with what he reaped from his work so I guess if you pay enough to the media (actually have them pay you enough) interviewing you, you can expect any response.

You don't really think the average person is in position to pay 2 or 3 grand to have some doctor stick his finger up his ass twice a year and tell him he doesn't have prostate cancer do you?

Funny, I was just remembering that as I was reading the thread. It was Jude Law and he was quite specific about the doctors not liking the system because they didn't make very much money and had to work long hours.

The subject was changed rather quickly at that point.

The not so PC answer...

Anyone who thinks they have the RIGHT to force a doctor to work for them even if they don't have the money is a fucking waste of space...

By saying healthcare is a right you're saying that person A has the RIGHT to force Doctor A to work for him even if he doesn't have the money to pay for it and that he has the RIGHT to use someone else's hard earned money to pay for themselves...

If you think you have a RIGHT to use someone else's cash you're a waste of space, pack up your shit and ship yourself to another country,we don't need you.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for easily accessible affordable healthcare for everyone... but nobody has the RIGHT to harness someone else's sweat...

You're actually interpreting and/or misinterpreting other people's agenda's the way religious groups do the bible. Even ancient dictators and leaders of third world countries try and at least make a feeble impression of aiding the poor and giving those without some entitlement. It's those in the middle that get screwed and they are playing on the fears of people who currently have healthcare and think they are going to keep it at the current rates. This is never going to happen no matter the outcome of the healthcare bill and the only way a cooperation makes profits, which is it's only reason to exist, is by either creating newer or better product they can charge more for or cutting back on expense, so do the math and see what you get out of it.

Also, don't forget that Teddy Roosevelt was up against the Robber Barons in his day and they were trying to play him off as a communist and socialist too and this was a bonafide Republican much like Obama is doing today as a democrat. I'm not sold on Obama but considering what alternatives were being offered it was pretty much a no brainer and I don't think his ideas are any more socialist when Teddy Roosevelt took on the Robber Barons and kicked ass cause he didn't give a shit and knew what was best for the country. It seems more dramatic now cause we didn't have to live through all the everyday tedium of back then plus their was no television media trying to play it out and getting bored for lack of drama.

Definitely NOT misinterpreting it... believe me. I could cite examples all day long about how Madison, Jefferson, etc... would support what I'm saying. Before I get the whole, "name one" I'll pull one out of my hat right quick :P

In 1794, when Congress appropriated $15,000 for relief of French refugees who fled from insurrection in San Domingo to Baltimore and Philadelphia, James Madison stood on the floor of the House to object saying, "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." -James Madison (Father of the Constitution I might add...)

Listen I'm a stand up guy. I donate both money and time to charities. I bend over backwards to help friends and family out... I believe that doing these things helps better the community around me and helps people out of slumps, etc... The key here is that it is VOLUNTARY... not forced...

Forcing one man to work X% of his time for another man is not right... it's called slave labor...

Jefferson owned slaves, so you're citing a hypocrite (great writer though) who doesn't practice what he preaches like a lot of these limousine liberals who speed past the poor here to get to the airport and adopt babies in other countries.

It's great that you support people but there are many people who don't or only cause they have to due to tax credits, and this is good as long as the taxes are being used properly and etc and etc.

Business is not designed to give to charity unless that's the way the tax laws make it work to thus increase business.

There should be a system design to keep the elite elite, assist the poor and help the middle class climb the ladder. This is the delusional of capitalism in it's purest when it's really design as competition and dog eat dog where someone has to lose.

Why aren't there more people that take this much personal responsibility?

qft........

Because the majority of americans are lazy, and would rather pass the buck. :2 cents:

Who has to pay for your right to have something? its not a right if someone else has to provide you with something.

If you want to know what your rights are visit this site:

http://www.usconstitution.net/

If it's not enumerated in there, even implicitly, it's a safe be that it's not a right.

You mean like the police and the fire department? You pay them before or after they put your fire out or arrest the guy trying to break into your house?

It's neither a right nor a privilege. It's a service like any other and no one should ever be forced to pay for someone else's services.

There is already a lot of "free" health care for people out there now in the US:
Anyone under 18 is eligible for free health care.
If you are poor and meet other conditions you can get medicade
Veterens get free health care
If you are over 65 you can get Medicare which is real cheap.

So the "gap" is people over 18 and under 65 that are not eligible for medicare and are not a vetern, who doesn't work for a company that offers group health and they can not afford their own health care.

We already pay a lot in taxes for medicare/medicade and social security. A LOT OF INCOME TAXES go to that. All of those programs are totally miss managed by the govt and there is lots of fraud. Both of them are on t he verge of running out of money. If they provide coverage to the people not already covered it's going to raise our taxes and be another miss managed poorly run health program by the govt.

Personally, I would love for each of those 30K or however many people who are not insured under a program or paying for their own, to be audited. I would LOVE to see how many of them choose to pay $800 a month for a nice car, or paying more in rent then they can afford, own flat screens, take vacations etc... I would bet that 90% of the people who don't have insurance don't have it because they choose to spend their money else where, and I'm not talking food and a modest rent but bull shit that t hey can live with out. Or for drugs, cigs, or booze, having gambling habbits, etc... Not ALL people but i bet most of them.

I don't think the people who actually contribute to society, work their asses off to be successfull should continue to be taxed to death to pay for the bottom of the barrel that is there because they are irresponsible. The ones who are really trying and sacrificing, I don't mind giving them a hand up. Most are not though.

If we add universal health care our taxes will go up, and everyone of us will be paying for it. Well everyone of us that actually contributes to society in a good way.

What do you care?

Since 1962, Canada has had a government-funded, national healthcare system founded on the five basic principles of the Canada Health Act. The principles are to provide a healthcare system that is: universally available to permanent residents; comprehensive in the services it covers; accessible without income barriers; portable within and outside the country; and publicly administered.

So what happens if through no fault of your own you end up unable to pay. Will the private insurance companies still pay out for your medical bills?

Rule #1. Nothing stays the same for ever. Your situation may change, retirement might be forced on you through old age, ill health or an accident. You might not be able to pay the premiums on your insurance or your employer might let you go and with it your cover. Then what happens? Will your system cover you and your family?

Come over and see how British doctors live. You will be in for a big surprise. People don't train for years and go through an Internship for crappy pay and long hours. Think logically.

And please don't throw out the you're a Communists bla bla to back a weak argument. I'm not even a Socialist. I just see the flaws in a system run for profit not being the best way to look after my health. The last two years have proven me to be right.

Your use of the word free is wrong. My health care is not free, I paid for it through my taxes which paid the doctors wages whether I needed him or not. So he's not being forced to work on me for nothing. I've already paid him.

I just did not have to pay for a private company taking a slice for profits and their costs.

And if I stop paying because I lose my job, fall too sick to work or retire. I'M STILL COVERED. Because I paid for it. :)

You're already paying for it. It's just a matter of the best way of getting the most you can out of what you are already paying for by acknowledging it through taxes and budgets. It's inevitable that eventually, it will be government run. Doctors are no longer making house calls with their little doctors bags. Get fucking real. It's too big for anything short of a cooperation or government to handle. Do you want to trust a cooperation or the government who you can at least bitch at for screwing it up?

And why should MY taxes go up because YOU are sick?

All insurance is paid when you "don't need it". So when you do need it the cost of putting it right is covered.

I wouldn't mind paying more in taxes if the govt ran the program right and didn't have so much waste. I don't like having my money wasted or paying 5x more than I should be if they would be doing their job right.

I also wouldn't mind paying more in taxes if the person who got sick was disabled, old, or young and couldn't afford coverage... wait we already pay taxes for those people to have free health care.

I'll take it a step further since I am a nice guy, if you are not old, young, or disabled, and you are working 2 jobs, living very modest and can't afford health care and you get sick, then I wouldn't mind paying more in taxes for you to get free health care.

What bothers me is that I will be paying for a lot of people who are irresponsible, low lifes, that don't deserve help. People that blow their money on drugs, beer, cigs, gambling, or buy nice things with it that they don't need instead of being responsible and paying for health care insurance. can we drug test people and if they fail deny them free health care ? If they buy nice cars, or live in nice appartments can we deny them free heath care? Why do I have to pay for someone else who chooses to not pay for themselves because they rather have a nice car then a 10 year old used one? or i have to pay for someone who has a drug habbit and can't pay for his own health care because he spends his money on crack.

Boiled down this argument becomes one of what is a right vs. doing what is right.

Health care certainly isn't spelled out anywhere in the Constitution or Bill of Rights, but one could argue that taking care of our fellow countrymen and women is the right thing to do.

How many people feel like their tax money is better spent on defense and weaponry to protect us from dangerous people like the Iraqis when it could be spent on things like dialysis or regular visits to the doctor?

Just because one takes care of their family and themselves all their lives doesn't mean health or circumstances will allow that to continue. The side in favor of covering everyone has a point and it needs to be considered rather than dismissed out of hand.

You do realize there are a lot of doctors that will not take Medicare and Medicaid because they said it pays to little and it takes a long time to get paid. If I was a doctor why would I want to get paid a shitty rate and have to wait for it. I would not accept any insurance and have my patients pay my rate in cash.

I think they should let the states handle the uninsured. There are already programs in place in almost all of the states. :2 cents:

In all fairness, this should be worked into the taxes we are paying right now and politcians salaries should be cut until they can figure out how to balance the budget without raising taxes any.

But I still think everyone should have doctors and hospitals the same way we have police and firemen. There is absolutely no difference except that the people have to be better trained and thus compensated at a higher level. There is no reason for their goal to be becoming filthy rich, in fact that should be discouraged in that profession.