How delusional and absolutely idiotic you are. And you have the temerity to criticize the right about following their party blindly and getting their facts from a biased source. I love the hypocrisy. What has the left done for us? Oh right, astronomical deficit spending and the destruction of the economy. Thanks for playing!

It should be a right, to certain degrees.

If you're got diabetes and are losing a leg because you're morbidly obese and lazy: that's your problem.

If you're poor as hell and sick - guess what - the hospitals already give you care and write it off by gouging us already.

Set aside the drama and face the facts. Social welfare is nothing new. There are generations of people that do nothing but collect from the rest of society.

Where I draw the line is my business. Which is exactly the point. I don't need or want the government to continue taking more from me and others who work hard for what we have only to waste it on more entitlement programs. Time has proven there is a segment of the population that has no desire to pull themselves out of the dismal lifestyle they live. They will die with their hands out expecting more.

Please refer to your own avatar, and then remind us what "biased" means.

you have the right to go out and pay for the best healthcare you can afford

I own my own business as well. I do NOT collect ANY unemployment, social security, housing assistance, medicare, disability, food coupons, or ANYTHING that I do not pay for myself, DIRECTLY out of my own pocket.

Unlike many on the right however, I do not label the less fortunate as unambitious crackheads. I am certain there are plenty very lazy, useless fucks with money and privilege out there as well, so stereotyping is not going to fix anything.

A country is only as strong as it's weakest member. If you were born into poverty and abuse for example, without help, you would likely perpetuate the situation yourself.

A truly strong and rich person, should have a moral obligation to help the less fortunate, and do good... not squash them down further, to build yourselves up.

Maybe you are in good financial and physical condition right now, but everything can change tomorrow. The "Dems are pro-welfare" mantra gets pretty old...

Even countries with decent, basic healthcare for all, allow their people to pay for outside care. Wealth will always provide more options.

If everyone in the US were to have some level of basic care, those with the means will still be able to pay for upgraded services.

It is not one-or-the-other, as the argument seems to come down to, for spin sake.

every american already has some level of basic care.

This is pretty much the best argument for universal health care. The amount of cash governments rake in from taxes and other shit should pretty much be a guarantee for the good health of its citizens. Gov still got no cash after taxes? Fire the idiots and hire someone else who can organize and prioritize their money better. Even if there's no money and the tards can't be fired, demand health anyway, you've pretty much bent over and paid for it already, they're just not delivering on a vital and imporant service that keeps a country's citizens strong and healthy. A strong and healthy population means a strong and healthy country. Seems like a no brainer, to me. :2 cents:

Maybe so, to some extent, but that is not good enough. If we can build the biggest bombs in the world, then I believe we COULD build the best healthcare system in the world as well.

How many people IN THE US are deciding between healthcare and mortgage payments right now?

And the idea that everyone has healthcare because you can use hospital emergency rooms for non-emergency care, is hardly a sensible argument either.

Education failed to teach anyone civics in the last two decades it would seem.

Re: education being a right, I think it is something that absolutely ought to be an iron-clad right in this country. The government should not only subsidize it but they should bailout every student loan on the books. Not only would this be the smartest investment they could make but it would also help boost the economy by freeing up a lot of money for people to pump back into the economy. That the govt is spending more on bombs and prisons is repugnant. Education for everyone is the only hope of getting us out of this morass.

Not everyone gets to be an astronaut, that's true. However, just because someone doesn't excel in a traditional academic environment doesn't mean they shouldn't get an education. Germany is an excellent example of a system where students who aren't cut out for the university are sent to vocational and trade schools to get an education after their compulsories.

As for health care, while it isn't a right in this country I don't know best to solve this. I don't want to see anyone sick or dying needlessly, but I also don't think it's fair to ask the people carrying the largest part of the tax burden to take on more. It won't be long before the immigration issue comes up after this passes and then we're going to be talking about adding 20 million illegal immigrants onto this plan.

ok, then what are you personally willing to give up for healthcare?
if its so important, what will you give up?

I need to read up on my Robin Hood. Anyways, you're a bastard, you know what I meant. :)

More than just that, a lot of people with excellent grades still can't afford to go to prestigious universities. The whole point of my rant is, life isn't fair. We have a free market here in America, most of our doctors aren't governments workers and neither are most of our professors. You aren't entitled to either, you have to work hard and make money to survive and prosper in this great country.

Bingo, no one is saying the system is perfect. As soon as someone is against the proposed health care overhaul some idiot comes out of the wood-works to call us rich white people who support greedy insurance corporations.

Oh is it really? Wow, how many tokes of your bong did you take this morning before you figured I didn't realize that.

Oh my god, you greedy white rich piece of garbage. :winkwink:

This is one of the emotional appeals used by ignorant liberals.

Same as everything else - a fair tax taken out of everyone's paycheck. You pay for healthcare anyway, so why not just cover it like all other security issues - like military spending... how do we pay for that?

Why do we need to fight insurance companies and pay for this coverage separately?

If I lose 30% from each paycheck, instead of 25% plus a health insurance payment, I would prefer the simplicity of the slightly higher tax - you pay either way.

This would actually be more fair for everyone, as everyone would pay into the pool, like for basic education, and for roadwork, and everything else you guys claim to hate, gets paid for now.

If you are rich, and you want better coverage, I am certain you will be allowed to pay more for it, as the wealthy will always get better services. Doesn't mean the have-nots should be screwed over.

I think this buffoon has contradicted himself more in 1 year than Bush did in 8.

For very few health care is something paid for by the recipient of the care. Whether in the US or in the EU, where we have a National Health schemes. Most pay for health care some way or another. The difference in the systems between the US and EU is our insurance is collected through taxes on our wages in the EU, in the US it's run be big insurance companies with them taking out a massive profit.

My Mother paid UK taxes most of her life and now she's retired and diabetic her health care is not subject to Medicaid it's her right to get health care for free is something she's paid for. The same with me and my cancer or Eva with her near fatal car crash. We were not asked for insurance cover or presented with a bill. We've already paid. This also goes for any drugs we need.

I would would wager we in the EU pay less per person for health care than the US. And most of us are glad of that. We prefer the inefficiencies of a Government run health care system against one run tor profit and shareholders. Which ever way it's run you will have to pay for it, the idea that Government can take on the extra cost without taxes rising is absurd. But you stop paying a private insurance company instead.

Judging by your followup post, you lied.

No politically biased bullshit

Why should I? As long as they stay off my lawn.

A History Of Reconciliation

For 30 years, major changes to health care laws have passed via the budget reconciliation process. Here are a few examples:

1982 — TEFRA: The Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act first opened Medicare to HMOs

1986 — COBRA: The Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act allowed people who were laid off to keep their health coverage, and stopped hospitals from dumping ER patients unable to pay for their care

1987 — OBRA '87: Added nursing home protection rules to Medicare and Medicaid, created no-fault vaccine injury compensation program

1989 — OBRA '89: Overhauled doctor payment system for Medicare, created new federal agency on research and quality of care

1990 — OBRA '90: Added cancer screenings to Medicare, required providers to notify patients about advance directives and living wills, expanded Medicaid to all kids living below poverty level, required drug companies to provide discounts to Medicaid

1993 — OBRA '93: created federal vaccine funding for all children

1996 — Welfare Reform: Separated Medicaid from welfare

1997 — BBA: The Balanced Budget Act created the state-federal childrens' health program called CHIP

2005 — DRA: The Deficit Reduction Act reduced Medicaid spending, allowed parents of disabled children to buy into Medicaid

I am surprised that no one has pointed out the doctor shortage the US has. Dotors are threatening to retire or not accept insurance if this passes. Then you would have doctors that want cash only. The quality of care will go down and the wait to see a doctor will be longer. To see a specialist it can already take a couple of months.

And what happens when you choose to retire, or you lose your job or your family needs more care then a company run for profit decides you're too expensive to keep paying out on?

Yeah, I already fessed up to that hypocrisy earlier in this very thread.

if that was how it worked, that would solve one small part of it but as with all else, the rich pay for the lion's share. "everyone" will NEVER pay into the pool under obama. THAT is a problem.

How can it be a "privilege" or a "right" lol

Has the govt. taken so much control of our lives that we can't do anything for ourselves anymore?

When I was growing up...nobody I knew had "health insurance" That was something for "rich people"

When we got sick, we went to the doctor. And NO, you didn't have to take out a fucking bank loan to do so.

There is a reason that "Medical Tourism" is so big now. And that reason is because our govt., the insurance companies, the pharmacies, and the hospital industry have conspired to make prices for medical treatment in the U.S. the most expensive in the world.

Fucking money grab.

Take a look at this:
http://www.indian-medical-tourism.co...-benefits.html

yup, once the government starts regulating what those evil "rich" doctors make, medical school will no longer be an investment the smart will make.

Amen to that dude.

Both systems suffer with a shortage of doctors, you can never have enough until you get to a one to one ratio.

But don't threat they wont all quit or refuse to work, they might lose they're medical cover. :winkwink:

Reading this thread it's clear how some are misguided about the cost of medical care and how it's paid for.

Also some have a "I'm alright Jack so screw those who are not" attitude. Maybe they should think about what happens to them if the tables turned on them.

I see some pretty good things in that group
It will interesting when the budget comes out today for the bill, it has to reduce the deficit to be able to use the Reconciliation. thats probably why they added the student loan thing.
Watching FOX at 3pm pacific for the presidents interveiw with Bret Baier

It's not a simple yes or no/right or privilege question until the semantics are clarified.

Access to health care and the freedom to choose your health care provider is in deed a right.

Having the government provide it is not.

Right = No one can stop me from __________
Privilege = You can/can't get that treatment or see that doctor

Does anyone see how access to health care which is currently a right actually goes to privilege with this plan?

Most Americans don't have health care unless you are talking about people who are victims of violent crimes or unexpected accidents that are visible and require immediate assistance. Check ups are needed to catch illnesses in the womb that not only saves lives but keep down the cost of major health care at the last minute when we are trying to prove how human we are by treating the poor and taking every last dime out of the hands of the middle class for a major illness.

It's funny that the people who make minimum wage and have no or minimal coverage are against an overhaul of the system like it matters if they have the latest treatment or technology that they will never have used on them anyway.

All judges who can sentence people to prison should do time in jail. All people who can start wars should serve time in the military and in war, and all people against everyone having health care should die slowly of some brutal painful disease!

Sooo, you realized you had a sarcasm fail but posted anyway?

Is anyone in the world "against" everyone having "health care" Of course not.

But I'd make an argument that the MAJORITY of people are against being forced to buy health insurance that they shouldn't have to have need of.

Bottom line is REAL health care reform would address the insane costs that we are forced to pay in the U.S. for hospital stays, doctor visits, and prescription drugs.

The govt and the media are pretty much doing one of the oldest con jobs in the world by distracting people with "insurance" In the end, all that will happen is the insurance companies are going to get 10's of millions of new customers.

It won't matter one bit to any of us as far as going to the doctor is concerned. His price will still stay the same or even go higher. My insurance rates will stay the same or probably go higher. My tax rate will go higher. Prescription drugs will still cost 10 times what everybody else in the world pays.

I don't see where this is going to make "health care" costs change one bit at all.

Rule #1. Don't retire if you can not afford to do so. I have NEVER relied on others, and I can not ever see anything changing that.

I was watching an interview on the Daily Show last night. Some British actor. He was asked what people thought about the health care system in the UK and he mentioned that doctors were not very happy with it because they work long hours for crappy pay.

Of course, you Communists don't really care about that I guess.

Anyone who thinks they are entitled to ANYTHING for free just because they live is poorly misguided...

Anyone who thinks it's ok to take one man's payment for his labor and give it to someone else because they are less motivated or fortunate is also poorly misguided...

These are two things that the founding fathers fought tooth and nail against... every word of the documents written to establish this country are against these two notions...

What part of the UK is communist? Just curious. I actually saw a doctor from the UK on Micheal Moore's documentary who said he was very content with what he reaped from his work so I guess if you pay enough to the media (actually have them pay you enough) interviewing you, you can expect any response.

You don't really think the average person is in position to pay 2 or 3 grand to have some doctor stick his finger up his ass twice a year and tell him he doesn't have prostate cancer do you?

Funny, I was just remembering that as I was reading the thread. It was Jude Law and he was quite specific about the doctors not liking the system because they didn't make very much money and had to work long hours.

The subject was changed rather quickly at that point.

The not so PC answer...

Anyone who thinks they have the RIGHT to force a doctor to work for them even if they don't have the money is a fucking waste of space...

By saying healthcare is a right you're saying that person A has the RIGHT to force Doctor A to work for him even if he doesn't have the money to pay for it and that he has the RIGHT to use someone else's hard earned money to pay for themselves...

If you think you have a RIGHT to use someone else's cash you're a waste of space, pack up your shit and ship yourself to another country,we don't need you.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for easily accessible affordable healthcare for everyone... but nobody has the RIGHT to harness someone else's sweat...

You're actually interpreting and/or misinterpreting other people's agenda's the way religious groups do the bible. Even ancient dictators and leaders of third world countries try and at least make a feeble impression of aiding the poor and giving those without some entitlement. It's those in the middle that get screwed and they are playing on the fears of people who currently have healthcare and think they are going to keep it at the current rates. This is never going to happen no matter the outcome of the healthcare bill and the only way a cooperation makes profits, which is it's only reason to exist, is by either creating newer or better product they can charge more for or cutting back on expense, so do the math and see what you get out of it.

Also, don't forget that Teddy Roosevelt was up against the Robber Barons in his day and they were trying to play him off as a communist and socialist too and this was a bonafide Republican much like Obama is doing today as a democrat. I'm not sold on Obama but considering what alternatives were being offered it was pretty much a no brainer and I don't think his ideas are any more socialist when Teddy Roosevelt took on the Robber Barons and kicked ass cause he didn't give a shit and knew what was best for the country. It seems more dramatic now cause we didn't have to live through all the everyday tedium of back then plus their was no television media trying to play it out and getting bored for lack of drama.