The problem is it won't be fair. The initial target is more tax for the wealthy. But we all know that the middle class will end up footing the bill.

Obama just needs to say, "You're either with us, or AGAINST us" and declare them all terrorists.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...s_Most_Popular

"For the first time, government programs next year will account for more than half of all U.S. health-care spending, federal actuaries predict, as the weak economy sends more people into Medicaid and slows growth of private insurance."

http://sg.wsj.net/public/resources/i...0203184812.gif

Jude LAw is living in a hollywood dreamland, British doctors are VERY well paid, most people would love to have an income like theirs, granted, the training is long and hard but the benefits at the end are worth reaping. people like them should think about manual workers who work just as long but for all their lives *(ot just for the training period) for much less money.

It's the end game with this administration.

You missed my point. When I was younger you didn't really NEED to have health insurance. Even 20 years ago you could just go to the fucking doctor. I never had health insurance until the last few years.

When I went to the doctor I paid for it out of pocket. When my son had to have his appendix removed in 1985 I paid for the operation out of my pocket (and I was NOT well off financially...I played in a band for a living).

Point is...doctors, hospitals, and pharmaceutical companies charge us here in the U.S. 10 times more than in any other country in the world.

These days in the United States you HAVE to have insurance...because nobody is rich enough to go to the goddamn doctor.

And you better believe that IF doctors, hospitals, and pharmaceutical companies had a pact with YOUR govt. and all the other govt. that have universal health care like the devils bargain they have here in the U.S., your govt. would be bankrupted and that entire system would crumble.

The problem we have here is that our healthcare is overpriced to the point that it can not be paid for by anyone.

Our govt. is so tied up with insurance companies that it has screwed us all.

Hell, I'm looking at my auto insurance premiums. I have 5 cars. I'm paying over THREE THOUSAND DOLLARS every 6 months for fucking car insurance!!! That is so outrageous.

I remember in the 1980's living in Fla. and I paid $29.99 a month for liability insurance for my vehicle.

And the state govt. works hand in hand with the insurance companies on auto insurance. The traffic cops are little more than money collectors for them. They pull you over...oh, you did 42 in a 35 zone...and guess what? They instantly send the info to your insurance agency which now raises your premium even fucking more.

This whole thing is stealing. Plain and simple.

Govt paid healthcare works for your country. But it isn't going to work in the U.S. with all this corruption and money grabbing.

What is needed is to put an end to the price gouging by pharmaceutical companies, doctors, and the hospital industry and bring prices down to the levels of every other industrialized nation. When that is done...we won't NEED health insurance.

We will do what everybody did since the beginning of time...pay for it ourselves.

Save that line somewhere on your hardrive.

This way you can copy and paste it into your posts for the next 7 years.

I wouldn't need to. I foresee you committing suicide when Obama loses in a landslide.

Yep, not only is it expensive, but if you have insurance they dictate the type of care you get. Here are two examples: earlier today I took my mom to the doctors. Nothing special, just a regular check up. I was in the room with her because she was having some medicine switched around and wanted me to help her understand it. So the doctor does her thing then ends up saying, "I will type this up, then I have to go, I've been in here more than 30 minutes and if we try to bill for longer than 30 minutes the insurance won't pay." I ask why and she says, "The insurance companies don't think a regular visit should take longer than 30 minutes. If we bill for more than that they pass the extra cost on to you."

Example 2: A friend of mine has a hip problem. she goes to see a specialist who tells her she needs surgery, but the insurance won't pay for it unless she first gets a cortisone shot then does some physical therapy. The insurance dictated the treatment, even though the doctor knew it wouldn't work. They just had to jump through the hoops in order to get them to pay.

Valid points to make about the present condition of the healthcare system, but there is nothing in the healthcare bill that will fix that

How much do they make?

You honestly feel that Obama is going to repeat?

:thumbsup

You have to question his sanity and intelligence.

It should be a human right, but the system we have in place and in which we are used to... is more of a privilege. In my opinion this country moved from a race society to a class society...so poor you get basic healthcare, middle class next level, wealthy best healthcare. In my opinion there is no fucking way someone without a job should get better healthcare then me and my wife who work so hard. We both have insurance through our jobs...but getting creamed in taxes. (so a % of our taxes are paying for these lazy people)

But who are they kidding, everyone gets healthcare in America already. If your poor it's totally free, if your illegal just walk into any public emergency room...they will not send you away.

This is the worst timing ever for something like healthcare reform...how about government reform. :321GFY

Health, food, education should be a right in any civilized society, certainly one that brags so often of its democratic values as US..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

I've tried so hard to find anything in the meaning of this word that deals with what you think should be a right and, well, I couldn't.

Exactly, don't treat healthcare like a tourist business and it will be fine. I don't need 5 star hotel treatment and I certainly should not have to pay medieval prices on easy to produce medicine. Bottom line, medicine IS NOT a business, and it's a sad culture that treats it as such, capitalism or not..

Should the government take over the companies that design,engineer and manufacture the equipment used in healthcare. The pharmaceutical companies that spend decades and billions of dollars to create the medicines for the world. How about the schools that train doctors and healthcare personnel.

Healthcare is business. It's that pursuit of profit that drives the technology and research the population benefits from. Take away those profits and the healthcare industry will suffer badly.

hmmmm let me think about that for a minute...

-----

Should the government take over the companies that design, engineer and manufacture the equipment used in our military. The research and development companies that spend decades and billions of dollars to create the deadly weaponry for the pentagon. How about the armed forces that train soldiers and defense personnel.

The military is a business. It's that pursuit of profit that drives the technology and research the population benefits from. Take away those profits and the defense industry will suffer badly.

--------

Oh yeah, the government will probably just screw it all up. The current healthcare system is all working just fine the way it is. Let's simply leave it for the not-for-profit insurance companies to sort it out for us.

They've only spent over $400,000,000 in lobbying and advertising to stop this bill (so far). I guess it must be a bad idea if the insurance companies are this upset about it.

What do Democratic values have to do with healthcare?

Are we talking medicine or healthcare? And who would spend the money and take the time to go to medical school if they were not going to be rewarded handsomely for it?

I asked him to find me a reference on wikipedia..



Amen.

http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/details...lt.aspx?Id=553

also see http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285
"The full-time occupations with the highest earnings in 2009 were ‘Health professionals', (median pay of full-time employees of £1,031 a week), followed by ‘Corporate managers’ (£745) and ‘Science and technology professionals’ (£698). The lowest paid of all full-time employees were those in ‘Sales occupations’, at £278 a week. "

right now on "NightLine" channel 7 they are talking about medicare fraud....its in the billions a year.

You are 100% correct. Chances are the bill will only end up bogging the system up even more. Now it is run by people who are only worried about making a profit. When you are involved with anything government run then you are talking about people who only want to keep their job and the more work they can create for themselves the safer their job is so it is not in their interests to actually try to streamline the system.

If the government really wanted to make it fair they would allow people to act on their own and import drugs from other countries that sell them for significantly lower prices. If I run a business building a product I will go out on the free market and find the best parts vendor I can. If that means buying the parts I use in my product from Canada, or China or whomever, so be it. Citizens should be given that same free market ability. I can either pay $300 for the medicine from my local pharmacy or I can order it online and get the exact same thing for $90.

The reason this hasn't happened yet is because most of the people out there have some kind of health insurance that covers the cost of prescriptions so they don't really care how much they cost as long as they only have to pay a small co-pay. They also don't care how much the hospital bill is and how much they were overcharged for some things because their insurance is paying for it.

If the government doesn't want to regulate how much the pharmaceutical companies increase their profit margins on the drugs they sell, fine. But they should afford me the same courtesy and free market availability that they do any business in this country. They can't allow these companies to charge 300% more here for the same drugs and force me to pay that by not letting me use the free market to find a better price.

Also, much of the research these companies do is funded by the government. The government funded labs develop these drugs and then sell them to pharm companies. Yes, the pharm companies do develop their own stuff, but it is not as much as most people would think.

Yep. My mom actually just got a check from her insurance company because they "accidentally" over-billed some things to medicare which caused my mom to have a higher co-pay. They were audited and forced to return some of her money.

Kane, I appreciate how you look at everything from an objective perspective.

I can often see both sides of an argument. With the current health care bill I see some good stuff in it, and I see some bad stuff in it. Like you, I'm just very wary of the government running anything because everything they touch ends up bloated, corrupt and not working nearly as well as it could.

One of the things that really gets me fired up is politicians going on TV and talking about the free market and how we have to let things fail if they will fail and let the free market run its course then forcing me to pay 300% more for my medicine because I don't get to use the free market and import it.

A good reason to change the system.

What few here don't understand is a National Health scheme is cheaper than a system run by private insurance companies. You end up paying less, getting the care and having the safety net of cover if anything goes wrong with your job situation.

I can see where that would be true. Unfortunately that is NOT what the "healthcare reform bill" is set up to do. What we are about to have here is every person in the U.S. being FORCED to buy insurance from private companies and then still having our taxes raised on top of that! I'd much rather go with singlepay health care system. But there was no way in hell that was gonna happen here. Too much money for the insurance, hospitals, and pharmaceuticals at stake. They are going to drain every penny that they can get from U.S. citizens.

The insurance companies pay for nothing. Those insured pay for everything through their premiums.

Which is why they are spending so much to keep the status quo.

I admit I do not know the workings of the health care bill in the US. I'm talking about a State run health care insurance scheme over a private companies run one. If what you say is right I understand your objections to it.

Your population is healthy, you have a better workforce. You treat people earlier and prevent future serious illness you save long term. Universal healthcare is not only something all governments should provide, but is also a wise investment in your people.

Being a business owner I tend to adopt more conservative stances on things, but I also see the need for government run education, protection, basic services and also ... healthcare. Its a no brainer.

Indeed he was........ so that is why we nailed that fucking worthless hippie rabble rouser to a fucking tree. :2 cents:

minte, you're trying to have a rational, educated discussion with those that are neither.
Most of the "free healthcare" advocates on this board are 20somethings with no life experience and failures. both who firmly believe the profit obama.

This post is exactly why this legislation is seriously flawed. There is no disagreement that the healthcare system needs an overhaul.

Why should US citizens get a better deal in Mexico and Canada for pharmacy items. How about tort reform, allowing group policy holders to shop for health insurance on a national level. There is a list of common sense things that could be done to get the process started. Yet none of it seems to matter to the current administration. They want to tax us for 10 years to pay for 6 years of coverage. And at the end of 10 years,then what?

qft......

You cannot say it's free. It's paid for a different way and without insurance companies, drug companies and hospitals more interested in the bottom line getting a huge slice of the cake. The US is the most expensive place, I have visited, for health care. You're getting ripped off and some of you seem to like it that way.

Great post, the only flaw is you don't end up with companies making billions of pounds out of those forced to pay.

That's a good point,thanks for the reminder.

Jobs bill getting signed today, and this first healthcare bill will pass on Sunday.

How are those other stimulus bills working out for us?

Yeah, suppose to create 250,000 jobs? How many new claims did they have last week?

The FIRST healthcare bill, then they can go in there and take complete control of everything, one step at a time

LOL@BFT3K. It's been announced that the CBO has not come out with any kind of definite numbers, it's just the Democrats touting "estimates".

Btw, you have to have a strong economy to create ANY jobs, but I don't think Obama's stupid ass knows that. Bernanke certainly doesn't.

Keep your hate hat on buddy - you have 7 more years of this coming at you!

Yeah, we were better off with the 750,000 jobs lost per month at the end of the Bush debacle. Good point!

From your mouth to God's ears!

As opposed to:

http://keithhennessey.com/2009/04/06...ion-has-saved/


I can just hear BFT3k's stupid ass saying "but it was Bush's fault!!"

Maybe you should take a look at the new electoral college projections. Looks like a lot of liberal states are losing votes while a lot of conservative states are gaining. Obama will be a one term president.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...election,_2012

And maybe even more when the census is done. People are fleeing failing progressive states.

And when Obama loses next election..... The Republicans will have control of your health care.... Why on earth would you want that?! God knows I fucking dont want Republicans anywhere near my doctor!

I can't understand why you would want any politician near your doctor???