Definitely NOT misinterpreting it... believe me. I could cite examples all day long about how Madison, Jefferson, etc... would support what I'm saying. Before I get the whole, "name one" I'll pull one out of my hat right quick :P

In 1794, when Congress appropriated $15,000 for relief of French refugees who fled from insurrection in San Domingo to Baltimore and Philadelphia, James Madison stood on the floor of the House to object saying, "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." -James Madison (Father of the Constitution I might add...)

Listen I'm a stand up guy. I donate both money and time to charities. I bend over backwards to help friends and family out... I believe that doing these things helps better the community around me and helps people out of slumps, etc... The key here is that it is VOLUNTARY... not forced...

Forcing one man to work X% of his time for another man is not right... it's called slave labor...

Jefferson owned slaves, so you're citing a hypocrite (great writer though) who doesn't practice what he preaches like a lot of these limousine liberals who speed past the poor here to get to the airport and adopt babies in other countries.

It's great that you support people but there are many people who don't or only cause they have to due to tax credits, and this is good as long as the taxes are being used properly and etc and etc.

Business is not designed to give to charity unless that's the way the tax laws make it work to thus increase business.

There should be a system design to keep the elite elite, assist the poor and help the middle class climb the ladder. This is the delusional of capitalism in it's purest when it's really design as competition and dog eat dog where someone has to lose.

Why aren't there more people that take this much personal responsibility?

qft........

Because the majority of americans are lazy, and would rather pass the buck. :2 cents:

Who has to pay for your right to have something? its not a right if someone else has to provide you with something.

If you want to know what your rights are visit this site:

http://www.usconstitution.net/

If it's not enumerated in there, even implicitly, it's a safe be that it's not a right.

You mean like the police and the fire department? You pay them before or after they put your fire out or arrest the guy trying to break into your house?

It's neither a right nor a privilege. It's a service like any other and no one should ever be forced to pay for someone else's services.

There is already a lot of "free" health care for people out there now in the US:
Anyone under 18 is eligible for free health care.
If you are poor and meet other conditions you can get medicade
Veterens get free health care
If you are over 65 you can get Medicare which is real cheap.

So the "gap" is people over 18 and under 65 that are not eligible for medicare and are not a vetern, who doesn't work for a company that offers group health and they can not afford their own health care.

We already pay a lot in taxes for medicare/medicade and social security. A LOT OF INCOME TAXES go to that. All of those programs are totally miss managed by the govt and there is lots of fraud. Both of them are on t he verge of running out of money. If they provide coverage to the people not already covered it's going to raise our taxes and be another miss managed poorly run health program by the govt.

Personally, I would love for each of those 30K or however many people who are not insured under a program or paying for their own, to be audited. I would LOVE to see how many of them choose to pay $800 a month for a nice car, or paying more in rent then they can afford, own flat screens, take vacations etc... I would bet that 90% of the people who don't have insurance don't have it because they choose to spend their money else where, and I'm not talking food and a modest rent but bull shit that t hey can live with out. Or for drugs, cigs, or booze, having gambling habbits, etc... Not ALL people but i bet most of them.

I don't think the people who actually contribute to society, work their asses off to be successfull should continue to be taxed to death to pay for the bottom of the barrel that is there because they are irresponsible. The ones who are really trying and sacrificing, I don't mind giving them a hand up. Most are not though.

If we add universal health care our taxes will go up, and everyone of us will be paying for it. Well everyone of us that actually contributes to society in a good way.

What do you care?

Since 1962, Canada has had a government-funded, national healthcare system founded on the five basic principles of the Canada Health Act. The principles are to provide a healthcare system that is: universally available to permanent residents; comprehensive in the services it covers; accessible without income barriers; portable within and outside the country; and publicly administered.

So what happens if through no fault of your own you end up unable to pay. Will the private insurance companies still pay out for your medical bills?

Rule #1. Nothing stays the same for ever. Your situation may change, retirement might be forced on you through old age, ill health or an accident. You might not be able to pay the premiums on your insurance or your employer might let you go and with it your cover. Then what happens? Will your system cover you and your family?

Come over and see how British doctors live. You will be in for a big surprise. People don't train for years and go through an Internship for crappy pay and long hours. Think logically.

And please don't throw out the you're a Communists bla bla to back a weak argument. I'm not even a Socialist. I just see the flaws in a system run for profit not being the best way to look after my health. The last two years have proven me to be right.

Your use of the word free is wrong. My health care is not free, I paid for it through my taxes which paid the doctors wages whether I needed him or not. So he's not being forced to work on me for nothing. I've already paid him.

I just did not have to pay for a private company taking a slice for profits and their costs.

And if I stop paying because I lose my job, fall too sick to work or retire. I'M STILL COVERED. Because I paid for it. :)

You're already paying for it. It's just a matter of the best way of getting the most you can out of what you are already paying for by acknowledging it through taxes and budgets. It's inevitable that eventually, it will be government run. Doctors are no longer making house calls with their little doctors bags. Get fucking real. It's too big for anything short of a cooperation or government to handle. Do you want to trust a cooperation or the government who you can at least bitch at for screwing it up?

And why should MY taxes go up because YOU are sick?

All insurance is paid when you "don't need it". So when you do need it the cost of putting it right is covered.

I wouldn't mind paying more in taxes if the govt ran the program right and didn't have so much waste. I don't like having my money wasted or paying 5x more than I should be if they would be doing their job right.

I also wouldn't mind paying more in taxes if the person who got sick was disabled, old, or young and couldn't afford coverage... wait we already pay taxes for those people to have free health care.

I'll take it a step further since I am a nice guy, if you are not old, young, or disabled, and you are working 2 jobs, living very modest and can't afford health care and you get sick, then I wouldn't mind paying more in taxes for you to get free health care.

What bothers me is that I will be paying for a lot of people who are irresponsible, low lifes, that don't deserve help. People that blow their money on drugs, beer, cigs, gambling, or buy nice things with it that they don't need instead of being responsible and paying for health care insurance. can we drug test people and if they fail deny them free health care ? If they buy nice cars, or live in nice appartments can we deny them free heath care? Why do I have to pay for someone else who chooses to not pay for themselves because they rather have a nice car then a 10 year old used one? or i have to pay for someone who has a drug habbit and can't pay for his own health care because he spends his money on crack.

Boiled down this argument becomes one of what is a right vs. doing what is right.

Health care certainly isn't spelled out anywhere in the Constitution or Bill of Rights, but one could argue that taking care of our fellow countrymen and women is the right thing to do.

How many people feel like their tax money is better spent on defense and weaponry to protect us from dangerous people like the Iraqis when it could be spent on things like dialysis or regular visits to the doctor?

Just because one takes care of their family and themselves all their lives doesn't mean health or circumstances will allow that to continue. The side in favor of covering everyone has a point and it needs to be considered rather than dismissed out of hand.

You do realize there are a lot of doctors that will not take Medicare and Medicaid because they said it pays to little and it takes a long time to get paid. If I was a doctor why would I want to get paid a shitty rate and have to wait for it. I would not accept any insurance and have my patients pay my rate in cash.

I think they should let the states handle the uninsured. There are already programs in place in almost all of the states. :2 cents:

In all fairness, this should be worked into the taxes we are paying right now and politcians salaries should be cut until they can figure out how to balance the budget without raising taxes any.

But I still think everyone should have doctors and hospitals the same way we have police and firemen. There is absolutely no difference except that the people have to be better trained and thus compensated at a higher level. There is no reason for their goal to be becoming filthy rich, in fact that should be discouraged in that profession.

The problem is it won't be fair. The initial target is more tax for the wealthy. But we all know that the middle class will end up footing the bill.

Obama just needs to say, "You're either with us, or AGAINST us" and declare them all terrorists.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...s_Most_Popular

"For the first time, government programs next year will account for more than half of all U.S. health-care spending, federal actuaries predict, as the weak economy sends more people into Medicaid and slows growth of private insurance."

http://sg.wsj.net/public/resources/i...0203184812.gif

Jude LAw is living in a hollywood dreamland, British doctors are VERY well paid, most people would love to have an income like theirs, granted, the training is long and hard but the benefits at the end are worth reaping. people like them should think about manual workers who work just as long but for all their lives *(ot just for the training period) for much less money.

It's the end game with this administration.

You missed my point. When I was younger you didn't really NEED to have health insurance. Even 20 years ago you could just go to the fucking doctor. I never had health insurance until the last few years.

When I went to the doctor I paid for it out of pocket. When my son had to have his appendix removed in 1985 I paid for the operation out of my pocket (and I was NOT well off financially...I played in a band for a living).

Point is...doctors, hospitals, and pharmaceutical companies charge us here in the U.S. 10 times more than in any other country in the world.

These days in the United States you HAVE to have insurance...because nobody is rich enough to go to the goddamn doctor.

And you better believe that IF doctors, hospitals, and pharmaceutical companies had a pact with YOUR govt. and all the other govt. that have universal health care like the devils bargain they have here in the U.S., your govt. would be bankrupted and that entire system would crumble.

The problem we have here is that our healthcare is overpriced to the point that it can not be paid for by anyone.

Our govt. is so tied up with insurance companies that it has screwed us all.

Hell, I'm looking at my auto insurance premiums. I have 5 cars. I'm paying over THREE THOUSAND DOLLARS every 6 months for fucking car insurance!!! That is so outrageous.

I remember in the 1980's living in Fla. and I paid $29.99 a month for liability insurance for my vehicle.

And the state govt. works hand in hand with the insurance companies on auto insurance. The traffic cops are little more than money collectors for them. They pull you over...oh, you did 42 in a 35 zone...and guess what? They instantly send the info to your insurance agency which now raises your premium even fucking more.

This whole thing is stealing. Plain and simple.

Govt paid healthcare works for your country. But it isn't going to work in the U.S. with all this corruption and money grabbing.

What is needed is to put an end to the price gouging by pharmaceutical companies, doctors, and the hospital industry and bring prices down to the levels of every other industrialized nation. When that is done...we won't NEED health insurance.

We will do what everybody did since the beginning of time...pay for it ourselves.

Save that line somewhere on your hardrive.

This way you can copy and paste it into your posts for the next 7 years.

I wouldn't need to. I foresee you committing suicide when Obama loses in a landslide.

Yep, not only is it expensive, but if you have insurance they dictate the type of care you get. Here are two examples: earlier today I took my mom to the doctors. Nothing special, just a regular check up. I was in the room with her because she was having some medicine switched around and wanted me to help her understand it. So the doctor does her thing then ends up saying, "I will type this up, then I have to go, I've been in here more than 30 minutes and if we try to bill for longer than 30 minutes the insurance won't pay." I ask why and she says, "The insurance companies don't think a regular visit should take longer than 30 minutes. If we bill for more than that they pass the extra cost on to you."

Example 2: A friend of mine has a hip problem. she goes to see a specialist who tells her she needs surgery, but the insurance won't pay for it unless she first gets a cortisone shot then does some physical therapy. The insurance dictated the treatment, even though the doctor knew it wouldn't work. They just had to jump through the hoops in order to get them to pay.

Valid points to make about the present condition of the healthcare system, but there is nothing in the healthcare bill that will fix that

How much do they make?

You honestly feel that Obama is going to repeat?

:thumbsup

You have to question his sanity and intelligence.

It should be a human right, but the system we have in place and in which we are used to... is more of a privilege. In my opinion this country moved from a race society to a class society...so poor you get basic healthcare, middle class next level, wealthy best healthcare. In my opinion there is no fucking way someone without a job should get better healthcare then me and my wife who work so hard. We both have insurance through our jobs...but getting creamed in taxes. (so a % of our taxes are paying for these lazy people)

But who are they kidding, everyone gets healthcare in America already. If your poor it's totally free, if your illegal just walk into any public emergency room...they will not send you away.

This is the worst timing ever for something like healthcare reform...how about government reform. :321GFY

Health, food, education should be a right in any civilized society, certainly one that brags so often of its democratic values as US..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

I've tried so hard to find anything in the meaning of this word that deals with what you think should be a right and, well, I couldn't.

Exactly, don't treat healthcare like a tourist business and it will be fine. I don't need 5 star hotel treatment and I certainly should not have to pay medieval prices on easy to produce medicine. Bottom line, medicine IS NOT a business, and it's a sad culture that treats it as such, capitalism or not..

Should the government take over the companies that design,engineer and manufacture the equipment used in healthcare. The pharmaceutical companies that spend decades and billions of dollars to create the medicines for the world. How about the schools that train doctors and healthcare personnel.

Healthcare is business. It's that pursuit of profit that drives the technology and research the population benefits from. Take away those profits and the healthcare industry will suffer badly.

hmmmm let me think about that for a minute...

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Should the government take over the companies that design, engineer and manufacture the equipment used in our military. The research and development companies that spend decades and billions of dollars to create the deadly weaponry for the pentagon. How about the armed forces that train soldiers and defense personnel.

The military is a business. It's that pursuit of profit that drives the technology and research the population benefits from. Take away those profits and the defense industry will suffer badly.

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Oh yeah, the government will probably just screw it all up. The current healthcare system is all working just fine the way it is. Let's simply leave it for the not-for-profit insurance companies to sort it out for us.

They've only spent over $400,000,000 in lobbying and advertising to stop this bill (so far). I guess it must be a bad idea if the insurance companies are this upset about it.