Freaky_Akula

FACT: If someone uses "hi friend" or "sir", there is a 92% chance he is a scammer.

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u-Bob

1. hiding joins is shady. (why is the option even there?)
2. caribbean flavor cash = added to my list of programs to avoid.

The Dawg

Your facts are bullshit.

I read through this thread and I see a program owner being polite and working to resolve the issues.

u-Bob

LOL. Funny cuz most scammers do indeed seem to be very polite.

lucas131

yeah, i think everyone here is polite i dont have any anger or any problems, i just wanted answers from my first post. i got them, now i and other people know what they can await. i dont dish out any crap. before we got answer from nats, nobody on gfy mentioned that they dont pay on initial sales, so looks like nobody awaited that. no problems, i just dont promote them anymore and i here excuse to all webmasters i reffered to them ...

nico-t

lol
this is so fucking funny.
I remember when i stated years ago on this forum that any backend can be modfied to shave including nats. The nats bros came out of the woordwork that it's impossible to shave.
Now we hear nats even has a special shave button. Nice going guys, good way to give affiliates trust

MrCain

How is a 'hide join' option not the same as a built-in shave option?

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Sigmund

iSpyCams

It's not a shave option because you cant hide joins unless your payout options are set to not not pay for them, and Nats telegraphs this pretty well to the affiliate. This is usually used by pay-per-active programs, that do low cost trials and only pay out on conversions. Also most shaving works by hiding a portion of the affiliates sales, not all of them as in this case.

u-Bob

Went through their wiki and it seems "hide joins" simply means that joins aren't displayed in the stats.

Got the impression that it meant "not being credited to the affiliate's account".

signupdamnit

I believe you are correct based on my research:


http://wiki.toomuchmedia.com/index.p...rough_Programs

I do wonder though whether there is a page which shows the status of all these options and what prevents a sponsor from turning them off and on at will in order to "selectively shave". It would be interesting to hear the response from TMM.

For cariflav, I strongly suggest you start paying out on initials if you want to keep calling your program 50% revenue sharing. Otherwise it's somewhat deceptive since 50% revshare usually includes initial joins and rebills. I get that maybe this might be a honest misunderstanding for you. If so you should also consider paying webmasters for those initials retroactively. I know it's in your terms in theory but a lot of people will still feel cheated.

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lazycash

Why did you decide not to payout revshare on the initial join? You seem nice, but a bit clueless, I hope you realize that you just killed your affiliate program.

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TMM_John

I'll sneak in here once (and probably regret it).

Hide Joins has been an option in NATS for a long time, it is a per program (i.e. payout structure) setting. It has never been hidden/etc, and is well documented. It is not shady in any way (sorry to disappoint the trolls).

This feature co-exists with hide rebills as there are certain program structures where showing the join/rebill numbers is not effective.

For instance, if you are operating a per-click program, you often would not want to show the number of joins on the traffic, only the click count & the revenue earned from those clicks. (A bit dated of an example at this point).

If you wanted a program, as the subject of this thread did, which pays dependent upon rebills and does not on joins, you may not want to show the join count, but only the rebill count and the revenue from rebills.

If you operate a per join program, you very often do not wish to show the rebill count, only the join count and the revenue generated by those joins. Thus, a hide rebills option for that program (payout structure) is needed.

If you operate a per free registration program (common in dating), you very often will want to show the number of free registrations and the revenue generated from them, but not the number of joins (paid upgrades) generated, so you would need a hide joins option in that case.

These are a few quick examples of why this feature exists. Of course, a program does not have to enable it (I believe Caribbean flavor has decided not to from now on). If a program wishes to show you the number of paid joins your free registrations generated to allow you to better decide on promoting the paid per free program or the pay per signup program, that is their decision.

This is not a "shave feature" as it is not hiding shaved joins, it is simply not displaying the information irrelevant to the program (payout structure) selected.

__________________

Skype: JohnA1078
Too Much Media - Makers of the Industry's Leading Payite Management Platform, NATS!

u-Bob

good question.

BIGTYMER

Not a shave option but clearly programs can use it as a shave option. Right?

signupdamnit

Let's say a program uses traditional 50/50 revshare where they pay on initials and rebills. Let's say in theory a program owner were to manually toggle "HIDE JOINS", "HIDE REBILLS", plus "Retro-active Payout" as well as change the payout options so that the affiliate did not get credit or get shown any joins or rebills for an eight hour period. In other words, say the sponsor toggled these options at noon and then changed them back to normal at 8pm.

Is this possible? And what notifications would the affiliate see for this? What in theory would give a sponsor doing this away? How can the affiliate protect themselves against this?

Thanks for your time. I hope you understand I'm not trolling you but asking questions relevant to my business.

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EriktheRabbit

Quoted from TMM
"This is not a "shave feature" as it is not hiding shaved joins, it is simply not displaying the information irrelevant to the program (payout structure) selected."

TMM
As webmasters what do we need to look for to tell us that a program is shaving using the TMM software? Is an email sent out to the affiliate?

LeRoy

I did a job building freesites for a nats program. Cash $$ upfront kinda thing

I wasnt paid for sales and the account was a "no payout" account.

This is probably why they have the option to not show the sales.

Carry on folks

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signupdamnit

Thanks. I wonder especially because of this other option too:

It seems it locks the payout but would this option also lock the display status for that join based on the status of the settings "HIDE JOINS" and/or "HIDE REBILLS"? If so it seems it might be used potentially for shaving and hiding evidence of it.

It would be good to get more details from TMM_John on how these options specifically work.

__________________

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signupdamnit

I think most of us are more concerned with whether or not the option can potentially be used to secretly shave or not. Not what the official reason for the option being there is.

__________________

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georgeyw

THIS

Why aside from the obvious would this type of option be in a NATS install?

__________________
TripleXPrint on Megan Fox
"I would STILL suck her pussy until her face caved in. And then blow her up and do it again!"

signupdamnit

You bring up a good point. Lucas isn't exactly a new webmaster and even he missed it. We need to know exactly where NATS displays the status of these options and whether they can be used in an underhanded manner to shave or not.

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lucas131

i still dont get it. if you dont pay on initial sales, there still have to be join but with 0% or not? now everyone can turn hide joins on off and if i am sending sales here and there i would never find out that i am missing some joins. really very bad option in nats, now everyone can shave on nats with no problem, call it whatever you want ...

TMM_John

I know you're well intentioned, but I don't have all night to round and round in circles on conspiracy theories. The short & direct answers to your questions are as follows:

hide joins doesn't even come into effect if there is a payout for the join. Meaning, if a program had hide joins enabled and you sent joins that had payouts associated with them, you'd see those joins regardless of the setting.

There is no way to use this feature to shave.

The retro-active payout setting is completely unrelated.

I'm out of here for the night.

__________________

Skype: JohnA1078
Too Much Media - Makers of the Industry's Leading Payite Management Platform, NATS!

u-Bob

John,

A question similar to signupdamnit's. Can the parameters of an existing program be changed? If the parameters of a program can be changed, what is preventing a program owner from manually doing it in the database? Are the settings encrypted?

exploit scenario:
- Program owner advertises a 50% revshare program.
- An affiliate signs up and grabs the ref links.
- The program owner writes a script that changes the revshare percentage setting of that program in the NATS database. For example: it changes the settings to "don't pay on join" or it changes the settings to not pay on rebills.
- The program owner writes a second script that restores the revshare settings for that program back to the original settings. (let's call it restore.php)
- The owner modifies the template for the affiliate backend/dashboard to include <img src="/restore.php?id=$affiliateaccount"> so that the restore.php gets executed every time the affiliate logs in to his account. The restore.php script then restores the settings for that affiliate account.

The program owner can then shave (by changing the revshare settings for the program associated with the ref links the affiliate previously grabbed and is using) and when an affiliate logs in, everything is covered up.



ps: the question is not limited to NATS. Other affiliate software providers are encouraged to explain how their software prevents this kind of tampering.

BIGTYMER

How about a page like the license page that'll show what options are set on your account?

signupdamnit

A somewhat disrespectful reply IMO. It's not conspiracy theories. It's protecting ourselves and our interests.

So is there no possible combination of options a program owner could use to say turn off the crediting of joins by toggling options at say noon and then toggling them back at 8pm such that between noon-8pm a webmaster would neither see nor be credited for joins?

The retro active payout option says that it locks the payout for the join based on the member join date. So if in theory a member joined during the noon-8pm time and the sponsor had turned off HIDE JOINS AND HIDE REBILLS plus had RETRO ACTIVE PAYOUT on (in addition to the options to not pay for joins or rebills) at the time of the member join then the webmaster would not get credit for the join or see any rebills for it. Even if later the sponsor were to toggle these options back to normal. Correct?

But the $64,000 question is whether or not the RETRO ACTIVE PAYOUT option would also HIDE the very existence of the join and any rebills too (in addition to just the amount of the payout) should it be on and used in conjunction with the HIDE JOINS and HIDE REBILLS options at the time when the member initially joins. Understand what I am getting at here? It's a legitimate question.

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Penny24Seven

wow the shit I do to work with affiliates so we are all happy and this guy doesn't even pay for the join, only rebills and you do not even know how many joins you sent him for free because they hide it LOL. I am doing it all wrong.
Send all your traffics to me. I will pay 51% on rebills and even pay a buck per join! I have this program beat

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Our site is coming soon. It will be one of the best ever! I know so. Brian and Penny

iSpyCams

Anybody who really wants to shave can shave. The method you described above is far more complex than a number of easier options I can think of right now. I don't think anyone who was into shaving would do it that way. I think most people would alter the database directly from the backend or else have a script that redirected incoming hits to an in-house affiliate account by overwriting the cookie at either a timed or percentage based interval.

There is no point in shaving on a per transaction basis, as in joins but not rebills, it has to be per customer in order to be effective. Otherwise there will be mismatched rebills and refunds as we are seeing here and the community will be alerted shortly.

MrCain

TMM_John, the people here respect your work and replies. There's no need to get defensive or irritated.

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Sigmund

Penny24Seven

so revshare but they only shave the part that they want to share.
OK ALL AFFILIATES I am doing 95/5 revshare, You get 95% but only on the 5th and 22nd rebill, that is the part I want to share. 95% who can beat that?

__________________
Our site is coming soon. It will be one of the best ever! I know so. Brian and Penny

signupdamnit

Yes but you see In theory if someone can manually toggle the options between say noon and 8pm and escape detection then they can also automate it and do it in other ways such as with cron entries executing scripts at certain times which modify the database or configuration files. It would be pretty easy in fact-- if that is possible and evidence is not shown to the affiliate of it occurring by NATS.

Also if rebills tend to come in at certain times from a certain processor it might in theory be used to easily shave rebills too by selectively turning on and off various options. You would turn it off right before the rebills tend to come in and turn it back on right after. But again it all depends on how NATS displays this along with the retro active and hide options.

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MrCain

cariflav, you should realize that you will now have to work extra hard to regain people's trust.

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Sigmund

SeanLEE

Title of this thread should be: If you weren't already shaving- here is a NATS step by step method to start!

The Online Porn business is a joke as of late... all these so called big money webmasters and programs- and they let Manwin monopolize and steal the game right in front of their eyes!

Only in this business; as everyone is a so called big shot, a thief, and no one sticks together..

__________________
I spammed in threads!

SeanLEE

And so does NATS!

__________________
I spammed in threads!

TMM_John

I appreciate the diplomatic approach However, read some of the posts in this thread and you'll see why I feel the people you speak of are in the minority on this board now. It's turned into a troll fest, and quite honestly I don't bother even reading it much any more, let alone replying.

__________________

Skype: JohnA1078
Too Much Media - Makers of the Industry's Leading Payite Management Platform, NATS!

signupdamnit

I don't get how you think it is trolling to ask about specific scenarios with specific configuration options in your software. Please if you don't want to answer our questions can you get Vlad or someone else in here to do that for you?

__________________

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TMM_John

Quite the contrary, you received a reply out of respect and I stated that I know your intentions are coming from the right place.

The two hide options have NOTHING to do with payout. They don't affect it in any way. They are strictly display options that are only taken into account when spitting out a stats page and on top of that they are only used if there is no related payout. These settings do not affect you being credited iwth a sale in ANY way. They are NOT in any way a secret way to shave.

I've given you the answer of No again for a third time. When you keep asking the same question regardless of the answer you get while drawing your own conclusions about how things work to suit the premise, I consider it akin to a conspiracy theory. It has nothing do with my level of respect for you. That's, in fact, probably quite higher than you think.

__________________

Skype: JohnA1078
Too Much Media - Makers of the Industry's Leading Payite Management Platform, NATS!

SeanLEE

Hey-- as long as your business model is not affected why bother... funny... once all the affiliates are gone.. then what are you going to do? Its your software... make it shave proof... this is the only hope at saving an industry that is totally underwater!!!

__________________
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rowan

http://www.caribbeanflavorcash.com/e...?page=programs

"0% of Join AND50% of Rebills"

Has this text always been there, or is it a recent change due to this thread?

First time I've ever heard of a program only paying revshare on rebills.

TMM_John

And with non-sense posts like this, I really am out of here

__________________

Skype: JohnA1078
Too Much Media - Makers of the Industry's Leading Payite Management Platform, NATS!

u-Bob

There's 2 different issues here:

1: The way the caribbean flavor cash program was set up.
I think John's reply was clear on this. The "hide join" option can't be used if the program is paying on joins. It is however important that affiliates realize that a program can pay on rebills and not joins. So the real problem here was the way caribbean flavor cash presented itself. They presented themselves as a 50% revshare program when in reality they weren't paying 50%, but only 50% on rebills and not joins.

2. Other potential ways to shave (not necessarily limited to NATS) and how software like NATS can detect these. To know if the scenarios posted here are possible, we'll need to wait until John is back.

edit: I see he's back.

SeanLEE

If you call that nonsense... then your one stupid son of B... Dont worry youll be one of the last to fall... but if we the affiliates fall--- you will to.

I think NATS may be "one of" the only hopes at rescuing the biz... if every program is using your software.... then there is something you can do as a leader to protect us all...

__________________
I spammed in threads!

iSpyCams

I am pretty sure that if you change payouts and switch to retroactive payout it will affect pending balances and earning history. That would cause a number of alarm bells to go off and its not a very sneaky tactic at all, so no I don't think that can be used to sneakily shave the way you are thinking.

u-Bob

His sig still says 50% revshare, so I assume it's a recent change.

same here.

signupdamnit

Sorry John I read the wrong emotions into your message then.

I get that the HIDE options only work in conjunction with the options to not pay for either rebills or joins.

But what I am asking is if when used with a combination of the RETRO ACTIVE option would NATS also not show joins or rebills based upon the payout rate at the time when the member joined? IOW if during the time when the member joined if NATS were configured to neither show or credit affiliates for joins or rebills would it later display those old backdated joins and rebills say a day later when the option is toggled back to normal? I'm trying to explain this as best as I can here.

Without the RETRO ACTIVE option it seems that a sponsor turning on and off these options would be easily caught when looking at historical stats. But if when turning that RETRO ACTIVE option on it makes the payout rates+HIDE JOINS+HIDE REBILLS "sticky" based on those settings at the time of the member join (rather than at the time when the affiliate displays the stats) then it could in theory be used to "shave" and cover up evidence of it.

Incidentally if this is the case I can see where it might simply be a mistake and something which wasn't thought of when the option was programed in.

I know you've answered but I'm not sure if you understand exactly what I am describing. It's a question of how all those options interact with the retro active option and it depends on how NATS was programmed.

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KingNigel

I don't think anyone has ever heard of a program only paying revshare on rebills. I can see why people are getting so angry.

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iSpyCams

Of course you realize that the stats page is the only way affiliates can know if they are being credited with sales, so from an affiliate standpoint, not displaying something on a stats page is the same as hiding it, since they then have no way to detect it.

signupdamnit

I checked Google cache and I think it was there at least on August 28, 2012. I couldn't find any archives for it on the wayback machine. I honestly get the feeling this sponsor just didn't know any better. I could be wrong. Hopefully they will do the right things and change it plus pay retroactively on initial joins.

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signupdamnit

Thanks. I think you sort of get what I am saying (or maybe I only sort of get what you are saying ).

The NATS wiki states:

IOW NATS uses the payout options for joins based on what the payout options were at the time of the join (as opposed to the settings at present which is the normal behavior)

My question is basically whether or not NATS also locks payout options in this way for the HIDE JOINS and HIDE REBILLS options too in addition to just the payout amounts when this RETRO PAYOUT option is ON. If so then in theory a sponsor would be able to change the payout options and still not have those old joins or rebills show (NATS would use the old HIDE JOINS and HIDE REBILLS settings which were in effect at the time of the join). If not then yes a bunch of phantom joins and rebills would show up where the affiliate is shown as getting $0 for them. This would tip off the affiliate.

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BIGTYMER

And this is why we can't have nice things.