signupdamnit

OK thank you for doing the tests. You're someone who I will take the word of especially in addition to TMM_John. I really didn't know either way but wanted someone to check because ti seemed a viable bug to me.

I believe this means though that in a case where an affiliate is switched from PPS to revshare and there are previous joins with active rebills then a bunch of $0 rebills should show up in the affiliate stats. I'm surprised NATS didn't do something to address that ugliness because I would bet it would at times cause some confusion. I've never been switched on NATS from PPS to revshare so I can't share any experiences on this either way.

Regarding this whole thing I hope TMM will consider adding some kind of tamper resistant history log which the affiliate can consult to see relevant settings changes. I think it would be a nice feature.

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lucas131

doesnt matter if you steal 50% or 100%, i call it shaving. maybe i didnt read the right vocabulary

lucas131

you know, i have respect to nats, vlad and everyone there, i am not doing it to harm your program, just to understand how some things works, as i still see i can send traffic and get no sales and no money, and everything just because someone have two options set as on in admin panel and this thread already brought one answer, thanks to pompousjohn!

Matyko

What He Said

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TMM_John

No. If a program is set to pay $0 per join it is a $0 join program. It is not "shaving 100%" of your joins. If a company chooses to pay out only on rebills it is a bad business decision on their part, not a NATS shaving conspiracy. I understand making up drama regarding NATS gets a lot more attention & views, but there is nothing here related to shaving and your constant restating falsehoods is very damaging. I kindly ask you to stop stating things which are not true.

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Too Much Media - Makers of the Industry's Leading Payite Management Platform, NATS!

TMM_John

Is completely wrong & misinformed, but thank you for illustrating my point about how people read parts of threads, draw conclusions, and that damages us.

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lucas131

you still dont get what i mean?

lucas131

it is not wrong, it is right, just open your mind and take it not as drama, but as some thing that may harm affiliates!

lucas131

for example, first in google results, moviewebmasters.com/external.php?page=programs , how can i know what is the real ratio? i see revshare, but how much? i may join, revshare program may be set to pay me 0% on sales and 0% on rebills. revshare program may be set to hide joins and hide rebills with 0%. how do i know that i am making sales with them? all is hidden! or this scenario is not possible?

TMM_John

I don't think you get the situation.

The program owner desired to have his program pay 0% of the join amount and 50% for all rebills you generated. A bad idea in today's affiliate marketplace, but his decision to make nonetheless. Because he was not paying his affiliates any of the join revenue he decided that displaying the join count was not in his best interest, so he enabled a long existing legitimate feature in NATS to not show the count of joins if there is no payout associated with those joins.

Then signupdamnit came along and concluded that this was a secret way to shave using NATS and proceeded, regardless of how or how many times he was told it wasn't, to insist that you could shave by doing some convoluted voodoo dance of turning these options on and off.

PompusJohn (an ironic name to some people I'm sure considering my reputation with some people), tested signupdamnits theory and determined that it was in no way a method of shaving with NATS and functioned exactly as I had indicated several times already to signupdamnit in this thread.

So, at the end of the day, this was a program owner not having a good read on the current state of the industry, and trying a new payment structure. Luckly, as NATS is far and beyond the most feature rich affiliate solution in the industry, he was able to try his experiment with a new payout structure and discover it's probably not a good idea.

One day, perhaps fairly soon, when every person doing any actual work in this industry has left this board and the trolls simply sit and argue with each other all day, no one should wonder why.

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lucas131

i understand what you mean, that was solved already, but can you please answer mine previous post? and about the quote, i dont think that trolling means when someone care

PAR

Doesn't anyone ask the basic question before sending traffic anymore.
*what are the pay terms?*
Clicking the "Programs" button clearly says you will not get 50% on joins only rebills..
This seems more a case of people being too lazy to read the black and white terms of payment or making simple contact first...
Hint - contacting a program before you send can make you more cash, you can ask for better terms and sometimes get it...

I'm guessing if you do not check the terms you also don't look for traffic leaks etc.. just send traffic out and see what shit sticks to the wall.
I would also assume it is fair to say you just keep sending traffic after traffic without any idea what the value of your traffic is.

In this day and age if you think a ratio is the end all and be all to stats to see if something works or not then you are missing the big picture.

Should you send 10,000 hits to something you should have a idea of the $ you expect from it.
If it goes under that pull it...
If it goes over be happy and see if you can work it harder to make more sales...

A 4 page thread saying NATs has a shave tool because someone sends traffic to a program that clearly shows it's 50% on rebills only is just stupid..

Yet again have someone posting shit that could have been resolved had they

1 read or emailed with regards to terms of payment before sending traffic
2 contacted the programs support
3 contacted NATs as they don't stand for shaving and would have taken action...

But hey, drama lama likes BS threads of gfy once again being used for simple support issues and slander is cool...

TMM_John

As signupdamnit said above, his program indicated that it paid 0% of joins and 50% of rebills. Whether you read it or not before signing up and sending traffic I can't say. But it also says it in a number of places when you're in the system as an affiliate to get links, etc.

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signupdamnit

While It sucks that some might not read the whole thread I think part of the reason it went on so long was because of poor customer support and PR on your part. I mean no offense or anything but go back and look at your replies from 9/17 and your attitude. It would have been smarter to take the concerns more seriously and intelligently discuss them rather than to call people trolls and conspiracy theorist right off the bat. Letting the replies go without an answer for 24 hours probably didn't help much either. People's attitudes naturally start to change when they feel ignored or as if they are being spoken down to.

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lucas131

so can you answer please the post starting "for example, first in google results," ? just is that possible or not? do not talk about program owners and so, just please, yes or not? then i am really done! thank you much in advance!

signupdamnit

You have a real attitude and ego problem. That's simply not accurate. Seriously go back and look at the way you handled yourself in this topic right from the start. If this thread damages your company you only have yourself to blame. You acted like a arrogant child in this topic and it's an example how not to handle PR. Good grief.

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TMM_John

As I said, I don't have an issue with you

I do have an issue with this board. And because of it I barely even read it any more. It's unfortunate, but this isn't a place for business to be done in this industry any longer. There's 0 accountability, an endless stream of people operating under fake usernames with who knows what motives, and a general sense that many people here aren't even involved in the business.

My initial reply had nothing to do with you, it had to do with GFY. You, for whatever reason, took it as a shot at you.

We're a very reachable company. You can call our office, you can e-mail or IM me as well as a number of other people here. We're extremely accessible and always happy to help people who reach out to us. As far as GFY, I avoid it most of the time, and I creep constantly closer to completely writing it off.

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PAR

You mean you want to know what you will be paid for sending traffic to that program....

this part:
http://moviewebmasters.com/index.php

Our Program
The 1st Niche Network, Tremendous Retention!
Exclusive content
60% recurring for life or $35 PPS Console Free
Sites built to sell and retain like no other
Powered by Nats / No Shaving
We target undevelopped niches = Great conversions
Tons of pre-cut movie clips for gallery builders
Easy payout methods
E-Passporte Payments Available
Payment by check
Payments by bank wire
Additional methods available

lucas131

no it says not, for example on carib, there is only caribbean delight and no percentage anywhere, you can write whatever you want there as i see ...

lucas131

and what? you can write 35pps and 60% revs, but inside it may be set to 0% revs! you understand now what i mean?

TMM_John

I suggest you reread it from my point of view while now knowing that what you are stating and accusing us of is completely wrong.

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signupdamnit

Most people weren't accusing you of anything. I know I wasn't. We simply had concerns and wanted them addressed. For the most part you weren't intelligently addressing the concerns until today. Maybe you just come off differently than you actually intend or something but it comes across as very abrasive at times and it seems as if you are talking down to people which is disrespectful.

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TMM_John

One of the reasons I very much hate communicating via IM & message boards. There's not really much of a way to imply tone. And when you're on a board called "Go Fuck Yourself" which prides itself on drama, people tend to read anger into everything.

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PAR

I know exactly what you mean,

You're saying that anyone can write anything as to the terms of payment on a site.
Now because I deal with a number of accounts with people that say $35 PPS etc.. and because I contact them before sending traffic or increasing it, I sometimes get higher than $35 PPS they post.

And it also tells me that you don't seem to take 5 min. to email people before you signup to make sure you are clear on the terms of payment. Let alone before you send traffic
**About the same about of time to contact them as it takes you to write 1 post on GFY...

So yes in that light I would agree that NATs could do your job for you and post the PPS and Rev share numbers... Wait... what about companies with a sliding payout, and ones with more than 1 payout program $X for site X and $Y for site Y etc.. Or special payouts from 1 webmaster to the next, or for webmasters in the EU do the cash conversion and added fees for payments... and So on and so on...

Asking Nats to be the wet nurse and spoon feed this to you when it's your resolvability to make sure you know the terms is silly.

At some point the responsibility is person sending the traffic not NATs...
Where exactly would you say the webmasters are the one(s) that needs to be responsible to talk to the program rep/owner/etc to make sure you know what the pay terms are.

lucas131

still ... i can contact program owner and ask thousand times if all is ok, and he may swear that he have 50% but in nats there is 0% and hidden joins and rebills. what does that solve? nothing ... and why john is still not answering that one reply from me?

PAR

If everything was set to 0 and you sent 10k in hits and made fuck all then one would think this to be moot as you would and should have pulled traffic..

Maybe he doesn't want to reply because it's not his or NATs job to answer silly questions...
Come on now you have been on here since 2004 are you telling me that you would send traffic to someone for long if you saw no $ and that having nats show you the default % or pps would solve anything you are talking about.

You do know in NATs you can set the default to something and set each webmasters account to a custom payout right... How else would people get a higher % or pps then the default... You can also adjust this site by site.

All things I'm pointing out are needed to run a program with more than 1 site with more than 1 webmaster.. So what exactly would you have NATs look at adding.

lucas131

yeah, i am asking cause i am checking my stats with my friend, on some programs he is 1:350 with exactly same amout and quality traffic as me, and i am 0:thousands ... that is all why i ask ... i care, i dont talk blah blah just to waste time ... if johns answer to my last question is yes, i think nats may make some changes in next update to make everything more visible to affiliates ... all i am talking and asking about ...

lucas131

but of course, we can stop this thread and delete or close or move and all will be ok, no problems as until now ... better be blind sometime and have luck!

iSpyCams

All you have to do is go to the domain where nats is installed and look for the "programs" link, or else type external.php?page=programs after the domain, the info you see there regarding payout is automatically set by nats to reflect the true payout at that moment, and this cannot be modified by the program owner without him changing the payout terms within nats.

for example, http://caribbeanflavorcash.com/exter...?page=programs you can see that they have decided to start paying revshare on joins (lol)

lucas131

of course it can be modified, as you can see on moviewebmasters.com/external.php?page=programs and many more programs ... and that carib, good for them, at least they have learned something, but i must be still dick with sucking traffic in their eyes of course

Denny

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lucas131

no answer to this very easy question, so i take it as confirmed ...

BIGTYMER

SpicyM

Shame, I wanted to join the program, but I wont.

No commision for joins? Lol..

iSpyCams

I think the only real solution is to have complete control over where your traffic is going, use some kind of link managing software and send your hits to the people who pay you the most for them. This may not be the people who say they pay the most for them. Any time you send traffic to a program, you are taking a risk that there will be no payout. So manage your risks as well as you can.

lucas131

yes, but i will be more happy to see program transparent, so you dont need to be affraid everytime when you want to join a program ... i dont get it why nobody care, but fuck it i will care anytime when it will be needed ... like with that hidden joins ... still no answer to my simpliest question, so yes, it is possible to shave with nats that way ... straight answer! with all the respect, it is possible to shave with nats the way i posted ... maybe thats why most of the new programs may sucks for some of us ... no panic, but no answer have luck everyone!

PAR

Exactly anyone that is not doing this and does not know the value of their traffic is behind the times.
Sending traffic because someone has $100PPS but converts at 1:20,000 is shit compared to sending to someone that pays $25 but is converting at 1:2000...

Let alone asking NATs to force the programs to display the default/general payment terms.
In hopes that this will solve anything.

Example given in this read was that just because someone says they pay $35PPS or 50% revshare they can setup NATs to show $0 on the said account. It's laughable to think that this in anyway is a reason not to always contact a program before you send traffic to make sure you know what and how you will be paid..

Regardless of what is posted on a site some basic simple questions:
1- what is the revsare/PPS amounts and what are they based on?
2- what are the payment timelines? 1-15 paid on the following 1st 16-end of month paid on 16th...?
3- what will the payment from name be? (if you send to xyz.com don't expect the company check or wire to say xyz.com on it... how else do you make sure you even got paid)

Now if the company does not pay you you have something you can point at and say wtf send me my cash..
Also should they set anything as a $0/0% pay you should, as pointed out above, know the value of your own traffic... Saying well someone else with kind of the same site and kind of the same traffic sending to the same program is doing 1:350 and you are doing 1:10000 is just dumb.
1- if you are at 1:10000 maybe you should pull the link/ad as its not making you cash.
2- Comparing your stats with someone other peoples is never going to be really meaning full.

Keep in mind Should NATs force programs to display the give general payment terms in a way that its not editable etc.. The program can still click on your account and set your PPS to $0 payment and 0% rev... (keep in mind that it has already been shown that switching the setting back results in retroactively seeing what was not shown before so its not a shave tool)... In the same way a program showing $35 PPS can and may give you a higher payout then NATs would be showing should they force this. This function would be redundant as a webmaster should have already contacted the company and should know exactly what the terms are BEFORE they send traffic. *This is the webmasters responsibility not NATs or MPA3 or the webmasters Mommy...

In this light it makes asking NATs to show this a moot point and not contacting a company to go over the basics that will result in you knowing the cash value and terms of the partnership you are starting with them is about as smart as signing a contract without reading it and then bitching you got fucked over.

On this note, again if NATs forced the showing of the PPS and rev share and the company did nothing in the way of $0/0% and they did not send you your wire/check/payment would you expect NATs to do something?

It's your traffic and it's your responsibility to know what its' value is, to know the terms of the deal you are entering into, and to manage it in such a way that best makes you cash and to know if you got paid. NOBODY ELSE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS BUT THE PERSON SENDING THE TRAFFIC..

Would you buy a car without a test drive and not ask what the bank rate % was...?
If you did what do you think people would say if you later freaked out because you could not afford the 300% interest rate on the car loan, or said that the car was broken but the sales guy said it was in great shape so you didn't drive it. I somehow have a feeling people may feel bad for you well they laughed at you.

In the end it's your traffic, it's your cash, it's your resolvability... Act accordingly and do your homework, monitor it and know its true value... Or just pretend to know what you are doing and bitch when things don't go your way.

lucas131

man, i know you can maybe choose where to send traffic, but there are people like me who are signing up to anything, cause they are running sites like 6bot where all new sites belongs, or just to push new sites. i know everyone is responsible for his own business, and i want to have my business clean, and i see i cant cause there is possibility to fuck with people, just to switch two options ... i want to bring new sites to people, and there are people who like it, but i really dont feel like i am doing good thing when i am sending those new affiliates to program that may work like i mentioned already ... come on, do not still say that everyone have to work harder and just overlook programs who are shaving ... that is not the solution!

iSpyCams

Exactly. Internet marketing, adult and mainstream alike is full of scumbags and fuckheads. It's swimming with sharks and nothing else. Just because somebody has nats doesn't make them a nice person. Every dollar out there has 1,000 hands reaching for it. So you have to watch your own ass very carefully because nobody is going to do it for you.

lucas131

but yeah, maybe fuck it and time to buy some content and nats, then i will be on the other side where is better to shut up

signupdamnit

The other big one is if you catch someone being shady in the past then don't be surprised when they do it again or do even worse in the future. It's like a wild animal tasting human blood for the first time. Once they start using the affiliate as their piggy bank they will likely be doing it again in the future. In the long run you will usually come out ahead using sponsors who have some ethics and hold your affiliate percentage as sacred. If you don't want to follow this then you better be able to change out links quickly and with minimal effort and you should be checking things often.

Another one is that affiliates encourage the games. If your traffic usually converts at 1:1000 but one sponsor is at 1:15,000 don't be a sucker. Remove every link you have to them. If you keep their links up it only tells them they can get away with ripping you and other affiliates off.

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lucas131

yes, and it is good that there are places like gfy where some people care, so companies like mr trying to hide everything and start new programs are outed and many webmasters will say fuck off ... better than shut up and think just about yourself and care just about your own traffic ...

signupdamnit

I never understood why it isn't more common that affiliates pool together and start their own paysites. I guess it's because we're used to working alone and sometimes there are inevitable personality clashes. But when you have admin access and know what you are doing you can be reasonably sure you aren't getting shaved and you know when you'll be paid and when you won't.

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PAR

Wanting to bring new site to the people still does not remove the simple steps of sending an email asking the terms you are entering into. In reality in increases that need so you know who you are working with and in this case had the company been told that paying 50% on recur was BS they may have made their change much sooner.

I manage well over 500 account, setup new deals/accounts daily, am constantly trying new things with new companies and deal with +30mil ad impr a day. Yet I can find the time to email each company before I signup.

Knowing the value of your traffic/ad spots /terms of the deal etc. comes first.
If you know the above then you can red flag things that have little value and if someone is "shaving" they will result in having little value to you and you will have walked away from them. Mitigating possible losses.

You can never be 100% sure you are not being shaved or if there are 100000 traffic leaks.. If someone really wants to screw the webmasters they will find a way to do so regardless... So you have to stay on top of things and pull under performing links.

If you really thing someone is shaving pull traffic and do your own test signups, contact them etc..
Not knowing the terms of a deal when its 50% on recur only and thinking it's a shave is just not right nor is saying that its a NATs shave function *in reality it's slander*. It's not a shave when a company is paying you exactly how they said they would... Had you contacted the company you would have known the terms before sending and couple have explained to them why you did not like the terms of the deal. etc..

Nobody is saying to over look that someone maybe shaving... Just saying that calling out NATs and a program as shaving or having a shaving function when you don't know or understand the terms is not right when you should have already known this and not only was it not shaving or a shave tool the result was a 4 page thread that could have been avoided.
1- the title of the tread slanders a company (a new company trying a new thing found not to be good) as shaving when they were not.
2- the body of this thread drags NATs into BS...

The reality is this thread should be pulled and apologize made to the program as they only did exactly what they said in the terms and to NATs for saying they had a shave tool that has been more than proven not to be a shave tool...

Trust me had it really been shaving and had NATs been shown to have such a tool I would not be on GFY right now. I would be too busy dealing with checking stats pulling links etc.. Now webmasters may have pulled traffic to good people because of wrong info these webmasters due to pulling links on bad info may lose out on cash. And 2 companies dragged in to a mess of nothingness.

Anyways I'm done here this thread should die...

topsiteking

This is legit one of the best threads on GFY in the last few years.

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babeterminal

wow i never new half this was going on i will be checking all rev share settings in nats programs

reggy

I am still waiting to get paid! Ive sent him numerous emails and no response back!

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Pornopat

I really wish TMM would take a moral stance now and then.
They used to have a reputation of NATS being honest software that did not allow program owners to rip off affiliates. This view has changed completely over the last years. Nowadays programs running nats have an extra warning sign for me. Its the software of shady affiliate programs.

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Far-L

Only because it is so Kafkaesque.

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Far-L

In my opinion, that is pretty much a baseless accusation that takes a sawed off shotgun sprayed fire blast to the reputations of not just TMM but us and other companies that use NATS and are 100% legit and always have been and are willing to prove it any time.

What on Earth are you basing that on?

This thread clearly points out that the program was the one at fault for the way they set their program up, and it is clear to me that the program was not exactly clued in from get go just by the replies on the first page. TMM has replied professionally and in detail and there still seems to be a disconnect understanding them, which I personally would say is most likely due to translation software, not to any fault of design on their part.

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