Serious question for those of you that are religious - Page 3 - GoFuckYourself.com

dyna mo · 01-08-2014, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AsianDivaGirlsWebDude

Do you know what efficacy means?

ADG

and the quote you provide-

this one

Quote:

Quote:
The largest and most scientifically rigorous study of prayer's efficacy, the 2006 STEP project, found no significant difference whether subjects were prayed for or not, except some negative effects among those who knew they were receiving prayers.

is entirely misleading, that was a study strictly on Intercessory Prayer.

do you know what intercessory prayer is?

Quote:

Intercession is the act of interceding (intervening or mediating) between two parties. In Christian religious usage, it is a prayer to God on behalf of others.
In western forms of Christian worship, intercession forms a distinct form of prayer, alongside Adoration, Confession and Thanksgiving. In public worship, intercession is offered as prayer for the world beyond the immediate vicinity and friendship networks of the church community. As such, intercession constitutes part of the worshipping community's engagement with otherness, as it expresses Christians' solidarity with those who are 'other' than themselves. In so doing, a church both appeals to, and seeks to embody, God's own love for the world.

DamianJ · 01-08-2014, 03:23 PM

Lolling so hard about the idea of a scientific study into prayers.

What next? Tooth fairy efficacy research?

AsianDivaGirlsWebDude · 01-08-2014, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo

of course I know what efficacy means. That's why the word is apppropriately used.

some of you atheists sure seem defensive re: your "beliefs" or lack of them, even going so far as to make snide comments about a word.

a quick google for you

https://www.google.com/search?q=effi...hrome&ie=UTF-8

Did you check the page of links that you posted?

In perusing the articles on the first few pages of the Google search you provided, most of the articles seem to debunk or at least seriously question the efficacy of prayer.

I particularly like this one, since I'm a big Cecil Adams fan:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...-heal-the-sick

People that pray (want to) believe that their prayers will supernaturally by answered. When put to the test, it appears that prayer is not effective, even if it makes the person praying feel better, at least psychologically.

Where are the clinical scientific studies that you claimed prove the efficacy of prayer?

ADG

dyna mo · 01-08-2014, 03:36 PM

I'm not going to fall into the trap of arguing with an devout atheist on the power of prayer.

you can pick and choose links all you want to prove your point, and I can do the same.

I have no desire whatsoever to try and change your mind, couldn't care less really. I'm comfortable in my beliefs, perhaps you are as well.

TheSquealer · 01-08-2014, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AsianDivaGirlsWebDude

I took exception to your usage of the word "hardwired", as if to suggest that humans are predisposed to believing in a god,

I appreciate your response. So let me clarify. By "hardwired", i meant that there are numerous mechanisms at work in your brain that LEND themselves quite well to a belief in God. Just as with countless other, and often disturbing preferences, we possess the framework for religious beliefs, already when we are born. What happens with that framework depends entirely on ones life experiences and environment and even brain development as well (ones interpretation of events/mental disorders or disturbances etc).

A newborn infant already possess a basic framework for morality and moral beliefs. A sense of right and wrong, a sense of fair and unfair. An understanding of basic physical laws and how objects should behave. A newborn infant already possesses preferences for their own language over another, for their own mother over another, for their own mothers voice over another, for their own mothers face, over another, for their own race over another race, with an innate sense of disgust at many things such as tainted or spoiled food, incest and so on and so on and so on (the list is quite long and its a subject which is very fascinating to study). Those facts do not mean there still cannot be an infinite number of possible outcomes shaped by environment, genetics and experience. We are born with a basic intuitive sense (not learned) feeling that "up" on a vertical axis is "good" or "sacred" and down is "profane" or "bad". The list is quite long. What i would suggest is that a lot of pieces are there, present in the brain and brain function that easily come together.

I have argued that MONOTHEISTIC religion which is largely all we see today, is little more than moral law - It is an adaptive response to a shift from small, nomadic hunter gatherer groups, to a sedentary lifestyle where increasingly large numbers of people need to live together and effectively get along. Religion throughout the last 10,000 years, has proven to be much more effective than law and punishment at keeping the group together and uniting and binding people. Both appeared and took hold at the same time. Both grew together. The 10 Commandments are not insane ideas.. they are basic ideas we all agree with and that social psychologists will argue, principles which are innate within us. It's the pageantry and parables and fables that seem insane and its that sillyness people use to attempt to discredit what are really, at their core, very sensible ideas that have proven beneficial, hence their existence.

Though I understand it and think its both an important and necessary response, I am constantly bemused by people wanting to talk about how dumb the other side is and how righ they are without wanting to listen to or consider anything outside of what they are already determined to believe. A wise people would be thinking "hmm.. that's interesting, tell me more". Though I am a dick on this forum, I am very interested in knowledge and learning. I am not quick to discount others views and I don't think i am right, without exception. I argue that way, but that really is just a means to get to the truth, or best argument, or idea.

At the end of the day, you cannot prove there is no God. That is one of many reasons why there is a persistent, widespread belief in God. Thats not a belief or opinion. That is a simple scientific fact we all must live with.

And I would also say that it requires a great deal of arrogance in my view, to truly believe and argue that "most people on the planet are wrong and I am right... end of story!". People who paint themselves as "progressive" and "liberal" seem to be every bit as intolerant as those that rail against non-stop. Both are simply the other side of the same coin.

AsianDivaGirlsWebDude · 01-08-2014, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

People who paint themselves as "progressive" and "liberal" seem to be every bit as intolerant as those that rail against non-stop. Both are simply the other side of the same coin.

I can understand when someone says that Republicans and Democrats are two sides to the same (capitalist) coin, despite their differences on taxes, and social/moral issues, however claiming that people whom consider themselves progressive or liberal as a group are as intolerant as religious conservatives is simply not accurate.

With that said, there are extremists/kooks on the right, left, and everywhere in between (these are usually the people that are pointed at when people from the opposite end of the ideological spectrum want to make a point).

Quote:

"The one thing I can't tolerate is intolerance!"

I am only human. Of course, if everyone agreed with me, there would be no intolerance.

But, if there was no intolerance, there would be nothing for me to be intolerant against.

So, I will continue to be intolerant towards intolerance, despite the apparent contradiction. Because I think we can do better.

ADG

NETbilling · 01-08-2014, 11:33 PM

This thread is delivering

dyna mo · 01-09-2014, 03:09 AM

not really.

nothing in this thread that hasn't been argued before at gfy.

and many other places.

stickyfingerz · 01-09-2014, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronic

The red part IS one of the biggest differences between athiests and christians.

I haven't read the whole thread yet... anyone bring up pascals wager yet?

stickyfingerz · 01-09-2014, 07:46 AM

Got to love Cult of Dusty..

Grapesoda · 01-09-2014, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutt

From my reading it has become apparent to me that the ancient Israelites, the group that invented monotheism and an omnipotent creator/king of the universe, were brilliant. The development of their religion, Judaism, was much more about politics than spirituality. They were a semi-nomadic tribe in lands surrounded by powerful empires constantly at war vying for more land and resources. Their religion is what they used to bind their people to the cause of nationhood, they had nothing else. In the Torah/Bible, every other group of people in Canaan are painted as their wicked and evil enemies.

Atheists don't seem to understand or can't admit to themselves that their freedom of thought was made possible by centuries of progress and stability that Christianity brought throughout Europe and then the New World. They aren't the intellectuals they think they are today without the influence of religion and they can mock religion all they want but much of who they are and what they think comes from religion, it's in the air from the moment we're born.

We may be at a point in our development that religion is no longer necessary but we'd not have reached this stage without it.

same with the liberals here in America, destroy everything that gave them then opportunity to sit back and decide America is crap

tony286 · 01-09-2014, 08:42 AM

"When I was back there in seminary school
There was a person there
Who put forth the proposition
That you can petition the Lord with prayer
Petition the lord with prayer
Petition the lord with prayer
You cannot petition the lord with prayer! "

Jim Morrison

tony286 · 01-09-2014, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NETbilling

This thread is delivering

tatala

Send Dyno mo a card for holidays or a nice fruit cake.

happyending · 01-09-2014, 10:04 AM

I worship at the altar of Pu-Tang of the female kind...

NETbilling · 01-09-2014, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo

not really.

nothing in this thread that hasn't been argued before at gfy.

and many other places.

I'm sure but it's a good topic of convo anyway

01-08-2014, 11:33 PM	#107
NETbilling Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Huntington Beach, CA Posts: 8,584	This thread is delivering __________________ Mitch Farber CEO - NETbilling, Inc. Email / Phone: 888-357-8166 / 661-252-2456 Transaction processing & 24/7 call center services with exceptional rates and flexibility, since 1998!

01-09-2014, 10:04 AM	#114
happyending Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: West Vancouver Posts: 137	Prayer I worship at the altar of Pu-Tang of the female kind...

01-08-2014, 03:23 PM	#102
DamianJ Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: A magical land Posts: 15,808	Lolling so hard about the idea of a scientific study into prayers. What next? Tooth fairy efficacy research?

01-08-2014, 03:36 PM	#104
dyna mo The People's Post Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: invisible 7-11 Posts: 65,319	I'm not going to fall into the trap of arguing with an devout atheist on the power of prayer. you can pick and choose links all you want to prove your point, and I can do the same. I have no desire whatsoever to try and change your mind, couldn't care less really. I'm comfortable in my beliefs, perhaps you are as well.

01-09-2014, 03:09 AM	#108
dyna mo The People's Post Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: invisible 7-11 Posts: 65,319	not really. nothing in this thread that hasn't been argued before at gfy. and many other places.

01-09-2014, 07:46 AM	#110
stickyfingerz Doin fine Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 24,983	Got to love Cult of Dusty..

01-09-2014, 08:42 AM	#112
tony286 lurker Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: atlanta Posts: 57,021	"When I was back there in seminary school There was a person there Who put forth the proposition That you can petition the Lord with prayer Petition the lord with prayer Petition the lord with prayer You cannot petition the lord with prayer! " Jim Morrison