Gibson's way of giving the finger to Eric Holder. - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

Rumbledog · 02-03-2014, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo

Isn't that just insane? I wasn't aware the gov series was due to this. I like the series, except for the color- desert sand.

I guess now that they have the wood back they will return to using mahogany for the fretboards and the guitar forums can move on to the next debate.

My LP has the Granadillo fretboard, due to Gibson having to scramble to find suitable replacement tonewood due to the confiscation. Nevertheless, it plays fantastic and is quite beautiful and I am stoked to have it.

mahogany is not used for fretboards. lol
Mahogany is used for the body and neck.
Maple, Rosewood and ebony are used for fretboards.

Granadillo is used to make fretboards due to the lack of Rosewood.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granadillo

I build Guitars. ;)

iwantchixx · 02-03-2014, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo

I looked into them to put in my now canceled es-355 project, they are super high output- 16k, very over-wound so lots of distortion. ceramic magnets. I recall they were first introduced in the early 80s

You know, I really wouldnt mind a hot neck pickup if it could be tapped.. hmmm

I've been spending some time up in the neck with rolled back high gain,, sounds really nice and brittle in split-coil mode

dyna mo · 02-03-2014, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rumbledog

mahogany is not used for fretboards. lol
Mahogany is used for the body and neck.
Maple, Rosewood and ebony are used for fretboards.

Granadillo is used to make fretboards due to the lack of Rosewood.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granadillo

I build Guitars. ;)

Thanks Eddie!

BTW- that was the point of my comment:

Quote:

My LP has the Granadillo fretboard, due to Gibson having to scramble to find suitable replacement tonewood due to the confiscation. Nevertheless, it plays fantastic and is quite beautiful and I am stoked to have it.

As for the mahog, I type my comments quickly, if it's not a crucial comment, I don't feel the need to double-check.

Nevertheless, you are correct, mahoghany is not used for fretboards.

dyna mo · 02-03-2014, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iwantchixx

You know, I really wouldnt mind a hot neck pickup if it could be tapped.. hmmm

I've been spending some time up in the neck with rolled back high gain,, sounds really nice and brittle in split-coil mode

You play quite a bit of metal right? And you have that 490 in the neck position on your LP, if I recall? You'd prolly dig it.

dyna mo · 02-03-2014, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rumbledog

mahogany is not used for fretboards. lol
Mahogany is used for the body and neck.
Maple, Rosewood and ebony are used for fretboards.

Granadillo is used to make fretboards due to the lack of Rosewood.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granadillo

I build Guitars. ;)

You left out Richlite

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richlite

Minte · 02-03-2014, 07:42 PM

Hey Fellows.

Never Forget.

The Dutch guy doesn't appreciate guitar threads. This was a political vendetta thread with only a slightly guitar oriented theme.

dyna mo · 02-03-2014, 07:46 PM

crafty!!

Minte · 02-03-2014, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo

crafty!!

It's been said.

McNaught Phoenix Rising. I think I need this!

Weight: 8.46 lbs
Top Wood: Diamond Carve Quilt Maple
Body Wood: Mahogany
Neck Wood: Mahogany Set Thru Neck with Double Adjusting Truss Rod
Fingerboard: Ebony
Fingerboard Radius: 12"
Frets: 24 6100 Nickel
Pickups: D'Marzio Humbuckers, RMC Polydrive 1 Midi System
Bridge: Tone Pros Tune-O-Matic
Tuners: Sperzel Locking
Case Candy: Black Hardshell Case

dyna mo · 02-03-2014, 08:42 PM

What planet is that guitar from?

It's far out, man.

Minte · 02-03-2014, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo

What planet is that guitar from?

It's far out, man.

Isn't that amazing.

http://mcnaughtguitars.com/

dyna mo · 02-03-2014, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minte

Isn't that amazing.

http://mcnaughtguitars.com/

it is.

Looking over the specs, it's impressive. I think I'd opt for those wagner humbuckers. I've heard a lot of good things about em.

Rochard · 02-03-2014, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minte

The debate is not about whether Gibson was wrong. The point is that Martin did exactly the same thing and the feds knew it. Why didn't Holder go after them too?

Gibson doesn't have to milk sales. They sell everything they make and this *government* guitar is at the very lowest of their pricing. It's not going to be a money maker.

Who knows? Who cares?

You are saying "They went after one company, but they didn't go after the other company that is doing the same exact thing". Well, maybe there is a reason for this. Maybe they don't care about this issue but were required to look into it after a tip. Maybe they decided to test the waters with this one case first before going after others. Maybe the agency tasked with this issue can only devote a small percentage of it's time to this certain law and feels it's time would be better invested elsewhere. Maybe the agency tasked with this issue was going to after all of them, but after the first shot they decided not to but still had to follow through with other cases because it wasn't worth their time or effort.

I would like to believe that the President of the United States isn't so petty that he would have law enforcement shut down a company because they donated to the other team. Clearly I'm wrong because we have a governor who shut down a bridge to piss off another city that didn't back him.

AsianDivaGirlsWebDude · 02-03-2014, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Federal prosecutors on Monday announced a deal to drop a criminal case against Gibson Guitar Corp. after the instrument maker acknowledged its importations of exotic wood violated environmental laws.

Nashville-based Gibson agreed to pay a $300,000 penalty, forfeit claims to about $262,000 worth of wood seized by federal agents and contribute $50,000 to the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation to promote the conservation of protected tree species.

"The agreement is fair and just in that it assesses serious penalties for Gibson's behavior while allowing Gibson to continue to focus on the business of making guitars," U.S. Attorney Jerry Martin said in a statement.

Gibson's decision to cooperate with the federal Lacey Act banning the import of endangered wood products stood in contrast to a publicity campaign mounted in protest after agents raided Gibson facilities in Memphis and Nashville.

Republicans and tea party members had rallied behind CEO Henry Juszkiewicz at the time he denounced the raids as overzealous federal regulation that threatened American jobs.

"We feel totally abused," Juszkiewicz said immediately after the August 2011 raid. He vowed at the time the company would "fight aggressively to prove our innocence." Soon afterward he was invited by House Speaker John Boehner to attend a joint session of Congress in which President Barack Obama delivered a speech on jobs.

A few weeks later a company spokesman claimed that a federal agent had "lied" in affidavits claiming the CEO knew the wood seized by authorities was illegally imported.

Those affidavits supporting the search warrant that authorized the raids alleged that shipments of imported Indian ebony and rosewood were given false labels to circumvent import restrictions.

The settlement says a Gibson employee learned during a 2008 trip to Madagascar ? the source of some of the ebony wood that was seized ? that it was illegal to import unfinished wood and sent a report about it to his superiors, including company President David Berryman.

Justice and Interior Department officials said in a September letter that those who "unknowingly possess" an instrument made from illegally imported materials don't have a criminal problem.

Quote:

In attempting to frame Juszkiewicz as a victim of political targeting, (Fox Reporter) Tucker Carlson highlighted the fact that he had "given to Republicans in the past." However, Juszkiewicz's own campaign donations reveal that he donated to both Republican and Democratic campaigns in the 2012 cycle. An OpenSecrets.org search of political donation listed under the name Henry Juszkiewicz from "Gibson Guitar" from the 2008, 2010, and 2012 cycles yielded this list:

The vast majority Juszkiewicz's contributions went to the Consumer Electronics Association, which donated $163,300 to Republicans and $69,900 to Democrats in the 2012 cycle.

As Media Matters previously reported, there were legal reasons why Gibson Guitar was singled out for investigation. Quinnipiac University School of Law professor John Thomas noted that while other companies also import unfinished wood from India, irregularities on Gibson Guitar's paperwork raised red flags, and court documents have suggested that Gibson Guitar "knew that it was buying illegal woods" from Madagascar:

My take is that the 2009 and 2011 seizures are related in that Gibson's conduct has given USFW [US Fish and Wildlife Service] officials probable cause to be suspicious of Gibson's wood-buying activities.

In 2008, Gibson, Martin, and Taylor officials [Guitar companies] toured Madagascar and observed the illegal logging operations. Martin and Taylor promptly stopped using Madagascar woods; Gibson did not.

Internal Gibson emails, as quoted by the US Attorney's office appear to indicate that Gibson knew that it was buying illegal woods. Federal officials seized that wood and as per the 2008 Lacey Act amendments, need not charge Gibson with a crime. Gibson must prove the legality of the wood to secure its return. Gibson has been unable to do that. [After the November 2009 raid, Gibson stopped buying wood from Madagascar.]

The 2011 seizure concerned Indian woods that would be legal but for the thickness. I believe that USFW is investigating because of suspicions due to 1) Gibson using the same wood supplier as it did for the Madagascar woods, 2) irregularities in the wood designations on the paperwork that could be due to innocent error or intentional attempt to deceive officials as to the thickness of the wood and 3) though Gibson is the ultimate purchaser, the paperwork lists an intermediary, LMI, which delivers the wood to a warehouse near the Nashville airport. Gibson retrieves a bit of the wood at a time when it needs it.

Quote:

I wonder where that (anti-Gibson) "speculation" came from. Anti-government fringe groups, perhaps?

Juszkiewicz says he doesn't think it's "political" that the guitar-loving, guitar-gifting Obamas who know about Gibson and own Gibson guitars themselves:

"I don't think it's a political issue," Mr. Juszkiewicz says.

"(Obama's) daughters have a couple of Gibsons. [Mrs. Obama] gave a guitar to [the French president's singer-songwriter wife] Mrs. Sarkozy."

ADG

Minte · 02-04-2014, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo

it is.

Looking over the specs, it's impressive. I think I'd opt for those wagner humbuckers. I've heard a lot of good things about em.

The inlay work on the neck is almost to nice to play on. This probably should be hung in a gallery and just looked at and appreciated.

Of course it won't be.

Grapesoda · 02-04-2014, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rochard

I would like to believe that the President of the United States isn't so petty that he would have law enforcement shut down a company because they donated to the other team. Clearly I'm wrong because we have a governor who shut down a bridge to piss off another city that didn't back him.

welcome to reality

Grapesoda · 02-04-2014, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo

The truly shitty part of all of this is the feds raided the Gibson factory with fully geared up SWAT teams.

I don't think anyone would disagree that's insanely excessive, if not abuse.

those Luthiers are bad ass mother fuckers

tony286 · 02-04-2014, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

those Luthiers are bad ass mother fuckers

I agree that was over the top, they are craftsmen cutting and sanding not gangmembers.

tony286 · 02-04-2014, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AsianDivaGirlsWebDude

ADG

OMG they went after someone who broke the law. Its that damn Obama plotting against big business. lol
They did break the law but they did go in a little extreme.

dyna mo · 02-04-2014, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony286

OMG they went after someone who broke the law. Its that damn Obama plotting against big business. lol
They did break the law but they did go in a little extreme.

I've spent a cup of coffee this morning reading up on this case and the laney act.

Gibson didn't break any laws, the lawsuit was a civil matter.

I'll put together a synopsis of it all and post it shortly, it's quite interesting.

Sly · 02-04-2014, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo

I've spent a cup of coffee this morning reading up on this case and the laney act.

Gibson didn't break any laws, the lawsuit was a civil matter.

I'll put together a synopsis of it all and post it shortly, it's quite interesting.

I've been sitting here trying to figure out why it was criminal. Sounded like a civil issue, meaning lawsuits and cups of coffee, not SWAT teams.

dyna mo · 02-04-2014, 09:58 AM

This is a hashed together c&p from a variety of sources that I hope sums up what happened.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::

The Lacey Act of 1900 is a conservation law in the United States.

The Act protects both plants and wildlife by creating civil and criminal penalties for a wide array of violations.

A 2008 amendment included anti-illegal-logging provisions of other countries.

Re: the Gibson case, It prohibits trade in wildlife, fish, and plants that have been illegally taken, transported or sold, based on the laws in Madagascar and India.

The 2008 amendment introduced supply-chain reporting provisions.

the Lacey Act is dependent on the interpretation of foreign laws and enforced via reporting requirements.

The Lacey Act does not require any certification. In the forestry world, 'certify' implies independent third-party certification, or government stamps, neither of which the US government recognizes as 'proof' of legality.

Historically, logging and exporting in Madagascar have been regulated by the Malagasy government, although the logging of rare hardwoods was explicitly banned from protected areas in 2000.
Since then, government orders and memos have intermittently alternated between permitting and banning exports of precious woods.

Prior to the raids- “…the government acknowledges that Gibson has cooperated with the Government and the investigation conducted by the Fish and Wildlife Service”.

Gibson Guitar Corporation was raided twice by agents carrying weapons and attired in SWAT gear where employees were forced out of the premises, the production was shut down, goods were seized as contraband, and threats were made that would have forced the business to close. In the raids, rosewood and ebony worth thousands of US dollars were seized. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service claimed that the wood had been illegally logged in Madagascar or violated Indian export law.

The United States Department of Justice filed a civil case against Gibson in June 2011 and in August 2012, Gibson settled by admitting to violating the Lacey Act and agreeing to pay a fine of $300,000 in addition to a $50,000 community payment.

The Government and Gibson acknowledge and agree that certain questions and inconsistencies now exist regarding the tariff classification of ebony and rosewood fingerboard blanks pursuant to the Indian government’s Foreign Trade Policy. Accordingly, the Government will not undertake enforcement actions related to Gibson’s future orders, purchases, or imports of ebony and rosewood fingerboard blanks from India, unless and until the Government of India provides specific clarification that ebony and rosewood fingerboard blanks are expressly prohibited by laws related to Indian Foreign Trade Policy. The Government agrees to provide Gibson notice of any such clarification from the Government of India in the future and a reasonable period of time (60 days or as otherwise agreed) to address the potential change in the understanding of the law as it relates to shipments received by or en route to Gibson.

Between June 20, 2008, and November 17,2009, Gibson did not ask for or obtain paperwork or official assurances from officials in Madagascar that the wood it was purchasing from Madagascar through its German supplier was legally harvested and exported from Madagascar, notwithstanding the information received by Gibson during the June 2008 trip to Madagascar. Before November 2009, Gibson further did not ask for additional paperwork or other confirmation from its supplier that the wood it was purchasing from Madagascar was legally harvested and exported, although the execution of the search warrant. Instead, Gibson relied on the fact that T.N.(the German supplier) was an established, FSC (Forestry Stewardship Council) chain of custody certified supplier. Before ordering or accepting delivery of the fingerboards, Gibson should have taken a more active role and exercised additional diligence with respect to documentation of legal forestry practices in the areas of Madagascar from which those shipments from its wood supplier may have originated. Information received by the Gibson representative during the June 2008 trip to Madagascar was not further investigated or acted upon, prior to the continuing placement of orders with the supplier, T.N. Information sent to company management by the Gibson representative and others following the June 2008 trip to Madagascar also was not further investigated or acted upon, prior to the continuing placement of orders with the supplier, T.N. Instead, Gibson continued to purchase Madagascar ebony after June 20, 2008.

Translation: A Madagascar law allows the export of finished fingerboards but not unfinished “fingerboard blanks,” which would leave the finishing work to Gibson, adding frets and shaving fractions of an inch off the wood pieces. A Madagascar company was given a special dispensation to export existing stocks of rosewood after the passage of this Madagascar law, and Gibson received that company’s wood through a German company, which was also certified by an outside environmental group as forest-friendly. It turns out, the Madagascar company did not have a dispensation for ebony, but Gibson was getting the wood through two respected dealers, as far as it was concerned. Because a Gibson employee visited Madagascar with Greenpeace in 2008 and prepared a report, which went to higher-ups, addressing some of the risks of violating Madagascar law, Gibson should have taken additional steps to prevent the import of this Madagascar ebony.

“We felt compelled to settle as the costs of proving our case at trial would have cost millions of dollars and taken a very long time to resolve. This allows us to get back to the business of making guitars. An important part of the settlement is that we are getting back the materials seized in a second armed raid on our factories and we have formal acknowledgement that we can continue to source rosewood and ebony fingerboards from India, as we have done for many decades.”

CEO, Henry Juszkiewicz commented, “We feel that Gibson was inappropriately targeted, and a matter that could have been addressed with a simple contact a caring human being representing the government. Instead, the Government used violent and hostile means with the full force of the US Government and several armed law enforcement agencies costing the tax payer millions of dollars and putting a job creating US manufacture at risk and at a competitive disadvantage. This shows the increasing trend on the part of government to criminalize rules and regulations and treat US businesses in the same way drug dealers are treated. This is wrong and it is unfair. I am committed to working hard to correct the inequity that the law allows and insure there is fairness, due process, and the law is used for its intended purpose of stopping bad guys and stopping the very real deforestation of our planet”.

Minte · 02-04-2014, 03:48 PM

So what's your opinion. Was Gibson just unlucky and CF Martin lucky? Or was it politically motivated attack on a republican supporter.

Rochard · 02-04-2014, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minte

So what's your opinion. Was Gibson just unlucky and CF Martin lucky? Or was it politically motivated attack on a republican supporter.

My opinion is this is law enforcement issue, period.

One company was targeted by law enforcement for breaking the law. There are other companies doing it; Some of them in a public way. We don't know why one company was targeted and not any others. Maybe someone called in a tip, maybe they plan on going after all of them but want to see how the first case ends before pursuing it further- maybe they'll decide it's a waste of time and effort, and not pursue other cases.

Unless you can connect the dots all the way to the White House.... You've got nothing.

Why would Obama want to punish someone who didn't support him? Fucking fifty percent of the country didn't support him, and his approval record is even lower; That's a pretty long list of targets.... And it's pretty pointless because even without their support he still won.

Oddly enough I don't see Minte complaining about the governor of New Jersey ordering bridges shut down to piss off someone who didn't support him.

Minte · 02-04-2014, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rochard

My opinion is this is law enforcement issue, period.

One company was targeted by law enforcement for breaking the law. There are other companies doing it; Some of them in a public way. We don't know why one company was targeted and not any others. Maybe someone called in a tip, maybe they plan on going after all of them but want to see how the first case ends before pursuing it further- maybe they'll decide it's a waste of time and effort, and not pursue other cases.

Unless you can connect the dots all the way to the White House.... You've got nothing.

Why would Obama want to punish someone who didn't support him? Fucking fifty percent of the country didn't support him, and his approval record is even lower; That's a pretty long list of targets.... And it's pretty pointless because even without their support he still won.

Oddly enough I don't see Minte complaining about the governor of New Jersey ordering bridges shut down to piss off someone who didn't support him.

I don't drive on New Jersey bridges. I do Buy Gibson guitars. And to keep it straight. I said Eric Holder, not Obama.

Is it hard to believe that Holder would abuse his authority?

dyna mo · 02-04-2014, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minte

And to keep it straight. I said Eric Holder, not Obama.

I was going to point this out yesterday when your detractors kept bringing up Obama, but I get tired sometimes of pointing out the obvious around here.

I do think Holder over-stepped his boundaries and unfairly targeted Gibson. Especially with the unneccessary use of force.

duk75 · 02-04-2014, 05:36 PM

Stupid ecologists...

Anyway, that wood was already cut, what did you want them to do with it? Burn it?

Rumbledog · 02-04-2014, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minte

It's been said.

McNaught Phoenix Rising. I think I need this!

Weight: 8.46 lbs
Top Wood: Diamond Carve Quilt Maple
Body Wood: Mahogany
Neck Wood: Mahogany Set Thru Neck with Double Adjusting Truss Rod
Fingerboard: Ebony
Fingerboard Radius: 12"
Frets: 24 6100 Nickel
Pickups: D'Marzio Humbuckers, RMC Polydrive 1 Midi System
Bridge: Tone Pros Tune-O-Matic
Tuners: Sperzel Locking
Case Candy: Black Hardshell Case

OMG! This is a thing of pure beauty. I love the craftsmanship.

iwantchixx · 02-05-2014, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo

You play quite a bit of metal right? And you have that 490 in the neck position on your LP, if I recall? You'd prolly dig it.

Yeah - Mostly hard rock and metal but I do dable in other areas.

I just love how the 490 get brittle with vol rolled back and tapped. A little bit more bite would be nice.

iwantchixx · 02-05-2014, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minte

It's been said.

McNaught Phoenix Rising. I think I need this!

Weight: 8.46 lbs
Top Wood: Diamond Carve Quilt Maple
Body Wood: Mahogany
Neck Wood: Mahogany Set Thru Neck with Double Adjusting Truss Rod
Fingerboard: Ebony
Fingerboard Radius: 12"
Frets: 24 6100 Nickel
Pickups: D'Marzio Humbuckers, RMC Polydrive 1 Midi System
Bridge: Tone Pros Tune-O-Matic
Tuners: Sperzel Locking
Case Candy: Black Hardshell Case

I don't think I could play this without standing in front of a mirror to find the frets haha

iwantchixx · 02-05-2014, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rumbledog

mahogany is not used for fretboards. lol
Mahogany is used for the body and neck.
Maple, Rosewood and ebony are used for fretboards.

Granadillo is used to make fretboards due to the lack of Rosewood.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granadillo

I build Guitars. ;)

I didn't think I'd like the Granadillo but I actually quite like it.

dyna mo · 02-13-2014, 10:22 AM

Seems some folks think there's some value in the Government series Les Paul

http://www.ebay.com/itm/gibson-gover...item20df5e6884

I wonder what the final price will be? It's already 3x street price

Minte · 02-13-2014, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo

Seems some folks think there's some value in the Government series Les Paul

http://www.ebay.com/itm/gibson-gover...item20df5e6884

I wonder what the final price will be? It's already 3x street price

That must be the secret one that Gibson made with the solid gold pick ups.

dyna mo · 02-13-2014, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minte

That must be the secret one that Gibson made with the solid gold pick ups.

like the diamond series, with the 1 carat of diamonds.

it's the last 5 minutes, let's see if there's a mad dash for this.

dyna mo · 02-13-2014, 04:56 PM

someone just spent a lot of dough for a Les Paul studio!

Minte · 02-13-2014, 05:17 PM

E.Holder bought it.. What a moron.

dyna mo · 02-13-2014, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minte

E.Holder bought it.. What a moron.

took me a minute.

02-03-2014, 07:42 PM	#56
Minte Babemeister Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Madison Posts: 7,081	Hey Fellows. Never Forget. The Dutch guy doesn't appreciate guitar threads. This was a political vendetta thread with only a slightly guitar oriented theme. __________________ You might not be as anonymous as you think you are.

02-04-2014, 03:48 PM	#72
Minte Babemeister Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Madison Posts: 7,081	So what's your opinion. Was Gibson just unlucky and CF Martin lucky? Or was it politically motivated attack on a republican supporter. __________________ You might not be as anonymous as you think you are.

02-04-2014, 05:36 PM	#76
duk75 Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 741	Stupid ecologists... Anyway, that wood was already cut, what did you want them to do with it? Burn it? Last edited by duk75; 02-04-2014 at 05:39 PM..

02-13-2014, 05:17 PM	#85
Minte Babemeister Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Madison Posts: 7,081	E.Holder bought it.. What a moron. __________________ You might not be as anonymous as you think you are.

02-03-2014, 07:46 PM	#57
dyna mo The People's Post Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: invisible 7-11 Posts: 64,724	crafty!!

02-03-2014, 08:42 PM	#59
dyna mo The People's Post Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: invisible 7-11 Posts: 64,724	What planet is that guitar from? It's far out, man.

02-04-2014, 09:58 AM	#71
dyna mo The People's Post Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: invisible 7-11 Posts: 64,724	This is a hashed together c&p from a variety of sources that I hope sums up what happened. :::::::::::::::::::::::::: The Lacey Act of 1900 is a conservation law in the United States. The Act protects both plants and wildlife by creating civil and criminal penalties for a wide array of violations. A 2008 amendment included anti-illegal-logging provisions of other countries. Re: the Gibson case, It prohibits trade in wildlife, fish, and plants that have been illegally taken, transported or sold, based on the laws in Madagascar and India. The 2008 amendment introduced supply-chain reporting provisions. the Lacey Act is dependent on the interpretation of foreign laws and enforced via reporting requirements. The Lacey Act does not require any certification. In the forestry world, 'certify' implies independent third-party certification, or government stamps, neither of which the US government recognizes as 'proof' of legality. Historically, logging and exporting in Madagascar have been regulated by the Malagasy government, although the logging of rare hardwoods was explicitly banned from protected areas in 2000. Since then, government orders and memos have intermittently alternated between permitting and banning exports of precious woods. Prior to the raids- “…the government acknowledges that Gibson has cooperated with the Government and the investigation conducted by the Fish and Wildlife Service”. Gibson Guitar Corporation was raided twice by agents carrying weapons and attired in SWAT gear where employees were forced out of the premises, the production was shut down, goods were seized as contraband, and threats were made that would have forced the business to close. In the raids, rosewood and ebony worth thousands of US dollars were seized. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service claimed that the wood had been illegally logged in Madagascar or violated Indian export law. The United States Department of Justice filed a civil case against Gibson in June 2011 and in August 2012, Gibson settled by admitting to violating the Lacey Act and agreeing to pay a fine of $300,000 in addition to a $50,000 community payment. The Government and Gibson acknowledge and agree that certain questions and inconsistencies now exist regarding the tariff classification of ebony and rosewood fingerboard blanks pursuant to the Indian government’s Foreign Trade Policy. Accordingly, the Government will not undertake enforcement actions related to Gibson’s future orders, purchases, or imports of ebony and rosewood fingerboard blanks from India, unless and until the Government of India provides specific clarification that ebony and rosewood fingerboard blanks are expressly prohibited by laws related to Indian Foreign Trade Policy. The Government agrees to provide Gibson notice of any such clarification from the Government of India in the future and a reasonable period of time (60 days or as otherwise agreed) to address the potential change in the understanding of the law as it relates to shipments received by or en route to Gibson. Between June 20, 2008, and November 17,2009, Gibson did not ask for or obtain paperwork or official assurances from officials in Madagascar that the wood it was purchasing from Madagascar through its German supplier was legally harvested and exported from Madagascar, notwithstanding the information received by Gibson during the June 2008 trip to Madagascar. Before November 2009, Gibson further did not ask for additional paperwork or other confirmation from its supplier that the wood it was purchasing from Madagascar was legally harvested and exported, although the execution of the search warrant. Instead, Gibson relied on the fact that T.N.(the German supplier) was an established, FSC (Forestry Stewardship Council) chain of custody certified supplier. Before ordering or accepting delivery of the fingerboards, Gibson should have taken a more active role and exercised additional diligence with respect to documentation of legal forestry practices in the areas of Madagascar from which those shipments from its wood supplier may have originated. Information received by the Gibson representative during the June 2008 trip to Madagascar was not further investigated or acted upon, prior to the continuing placement of orders with the supplier, T.N. Information sent to company management by the Gibson representative and others following the June 2008 trip to Madagascar also was not further investigated or acted upon, prior to the continuing placement of orders with the supplier, T.N. Instead, Gibson continued to purchase Madagascar ebony after June 20, 2008. Translation: A Madagascar law allows the export of finished fingerboards but not unfinished “fingerboard blanks,” which would leave the finishing work to Gibson, adding frets and shaving fractions of an inch off the wood pieces. A Madagascar company was given a special dispensation to export existing stocks of rosewood after the passage of this Madagascar law, and Gibson received that company’s wood through a German company, which was also certified by an outside environmental group as forest-friendly. It turns out, the Madagascar company did not have a dispensation for ebony, but Gibson was getting the wood through two respected dealers, as far as it was concerned. Because a Gibson employee visited Madagascar with Greenpeace in 2008 and prepared a report, which went to higher-ups, addressing some of the risks of violating Madagascar law, Gibson should have taken additional steps to prevent the import of this Madagascar ebony. “We felt compelled to settle as the costs of proving our case at trial would have cost millions of dollars and taken a very long time to resolve. This allows us to get back to the business of making guitars. An important part of the settlement is that we are getting back the materials seized in a second armed raid on our factories and we have formal acknowledgement that we can continue to source rosewood and ebony fingerboards from India, as we have done for many decades.” CEO, Henry Juszkiewicz commented, “We feel that Gibson was inappropriately targeted, and a matter that could have been addressed with a simple contact a caring human being representing the government. Instead, the Government used violent and hostile means with the full force of the US Government and several armed law enforcement agencies costing the tax payer millions of dollars and putting a job creating US manufacture at risk and at a competitive disadvantage. This shows the increasing trend on the part of government to criminalize rules and regulations and treat US businesses in the same way drug dealers are treated. This is wrong and it is unfair. I am committed to working hard to correct the inequity that the law allows and insure there is fairness, due process, and the law is used for its intended purpose of stopping bad guys and stopping the very real deforestation of our planet”.

02-13-2014, 10:22 AM	#81
dyna mo The People's Post Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: invisible 7-11 Posts: 64,724	Seems some folks think there's some value in the Government series Les Paul http://www.ebay.com/itm/gibson-gover...item20df5e6884 I wonder what the final price will be? It's already 3x street price

02-13-2014, 04:56 PM	#84
dyna mo The People's Post Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: invisible 7-11 Posts: 64,724	someone just spent a lot of dough for a Les Paul studio!