Originally Posted by thommy (Post 22152045)

than tell me what the twin towers had to do with islam !!!
tell me what new years eve is if not a drinking festival.
how many millions of muslim you need on a place to make a problem if you already have a problem with single ones..

Originally Posted by thommy (Post 22152195)

good that Al Kaida and IS are just 2 people.

not a big deal than.

tell me one with the highest education ever belted a bomb belt and blown up in the air.
if THAT would be the case we just have to wait a bit til they are all used.

Originally Posted by thommy (Post 22152273)

according to your logic it would be better to keep people away from universities, because universities are creating terror leaders.

tell me your assumption: HOW many of them would be terrorists if ALL of them (including the blind followers) would have been to university ?

WICH one of them would be the one with the bomb belt?

do you you see your lack of logic ?

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 22152663)

I would say the numbers are clear. Czech, Poland, Hungary have the right numbers to not have any problems.

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 22152672)

No. Keep Muslims away from Western Universities until you educate them.

Originally Posted by thommy (Post 22152696)

i am quite sure we would face a lot less problems if we would be able to keep haters away from the keyboard to post their hate in OUR NAMES to the whole world.

Originally Posted by thommy (Post 22152693)

looooooooooooool

i just wait til they throw stones on you because you do not speak czech



it must be wonderful to live as an ignorant in an ignorant country.

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 22153263)

You still haven't answered my question on why there are no Islam attacks in countries with no or few Muslims and countries where they are, have a real problem. The more Muslims = more human rights abuses.

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 22153263)

You still haven't answered my question on why there are no Islam attacks in countries with no or few Muslims and countries where they are, have a real problem. The more Muslims = more human rights abuses.

Originally Posted by thommy (Post 22153356)

what you guys simply do not understand is, that you are the tools of the real smart terrorists. they are using YOUR hate to produce more hate under their people.
if you think that their leaders are so stupid that they just throw bombs (what can not eliminate our societies) because they are stupid, than you are completely wrong.
what they want is exactly this hate you are spreading. they want you hate people just for their religion or ethnic (even when they never thought to become a terrorist).
you hate is helping them to create the next generation of terrorists and this is what your small brains do not catch.

Originally Posted by CarlosTheGaucho (Post 22153329)

This discussion went derailed very fast into absolutely unnecessary name calling instead of discussing concepts. However I'll just remark one thing - Islam is one ideology where, as a paradox, resentment to it, as well as apologizing it, has mostly both to do with ignorance.

While many will fear and resent Islam due to the perpetual acts of its followers, and due to its history, they may not know much about its doctrine. However, one can also pretty much guarantee that almost 100 pct. of those outside of Islam apologizing it have equally low, if not even lower knowledge about its doctrine.

What is important to know is that Islam, as codified in its doctrine, is a complete civilization, a complete way of life, including a very much totalitarian political system governing every aspect of life.

To discard it as a "religion" is only how those outside of Islam may see it. Let me give just one simple point for illustration - if you'd define religion as something you can choose or apostate from - that already disqualifies Islam.

You are either born to it (into a family following Islam), you can convert to it, but you can never leave, the penalty for apostasy as codified in the doctrine of Islam is death. Just count those many fatwas asking for death to, often known apostates, such as for example Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Originally Posted by CarlosTheGaucho (Post 22153329)

This discussion went derailed very fast into absolutely unnecessary name calling instead of discussing concepts. However I'll just remark one thing - Islam is one ideology where, as a paradox, resentment to it, as well as apologizing it, has mostly both to do with ignorance.

While many will fear and resent Islam due to the perpetual acts of its followers, and due to its history, they may not know much about its doctrine. However, one can also pretty much guarantee that almost 100 pct. of those outside of Islam apologizing it have equally low, if not even lower knowledge about its doctrine.

What is important to know is that Islam, as codified in its doctrine, is a complete civilization, a complete way of life, including a very much totalitarian political system governing every aspect of life.

To discard it as a "religion" is only how those outside of Islam may see it. Let me give just one simple point for illustration - if you'd define religion as something you can choose or apostate from - that already disqualifies Islam.

You are either born to it (into a family following Islam), you can convert to it, but you can never leave, the penalty for apostasy as codified in the doctrine of Islam is death. Just count those many fatwas asking for death to, often known apostates, such as for example Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Originally Posted by thommy (Post 22153356)

i did not answer it because it is a dumb question.

Originally Posted by thommy (Post 22153377)

i think there is really NOBODY here what underestimates the danger what comes out of this religion.

i did never speak FOR islam (as i would never speak for any religion) I just see a problem and different solutions.
all solutions i here from people like paul are short term and all logic tells me that this is just making the problem bigger with the time.

so if we do nothing it is a question of time til they eat us alive.

fact is that trying to stop that with hate and power will produce the opposite effect - i hope we can agree at that point.

that logically leads to the fact that it is just a question of time til this oppoite effect have reached that many people that they are able to overrun us.

that means: it is a VERY BAD idea and you do not need many braincells to see that.

I personally know a few muslim in germany and call them friends. i drink bear with them and even eat pork meat together with them.
what i can observe in the past few years on these people (what i really know for a long long time) that they are feeling more and more like strangers in the country where they are born - just because you can see on their ethnic that they are not german.
they start to feel.
they are facing so much hate just for their look that the only chance they have is to meet with other muslim because they do not face hate there.
i am really scared that people like that are one day FORCED to decide for one of the both groups. and for sure they will not decide for the group what hates them.

this is why i say that near to 100% of all past terror attacks in the past 10 years have been created by haters what think they are the supremacist race and do not even have the brain of an aunt.

if one of them even would take the time to look at al jazeera and see the other side of the medal and the information and pictures what this people get to see would possibly understand why it is important to show them that we are not dangerous for them, that we do not want to kill them and that would possibly makes them open to listen.

education is a slow process but the one and only what can work here.

Originally Posted by CarlosTheGaucho (Post 22153329)

...
You are either born to it (into a family following Islam), you can convert to it, but you can never leave, the penalty for apostasy as codified in the doctrine of Islam is death. Just count those many fatwas asking for death to, often known apostates, such as for example Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Originally Posted by thommy (Post 22153356)

...
from 1960 to today the world population went from 3 billion to over 7 billion.
so it is just a question of a few years til we need to share this planet with more than 10 billion people
...

Originally Posted by thommy (Post 22153356)

...
what you guys simply do not understand is, that you are the tools of the real smart terrorists. they are using YOUR hate to produce more hate under their people.
if you think that their leaders are so stupid that they just throw bombs (what can not eliminate our societies) because they are stupid, than you are completely wrong.
what they want is exactly this hate you are spreading. they want you hate people just for their religion or ethnic (even when they never thought to become a terrorist).
you hate is helping them to create the next generation of terrorists and this is what your small brains do not catch.
YOU are the BEST helpers of terror - YOU are the jihadist producers YOU are the weapons they use against us.
if you did not learn that in your long life it did not make sense that you have been born.

Originally Posted by thommy (Post 22153377)

i think there is really NOBODY here what underestimates the danger what comes out of this religion.
...

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 22153407)

Why do you think they should be educated in the West and do you underestimate the dangers of doing so?
Would it not be better for you to go to the root of the problem? Try Mecca.

Originally Posted by Sarn (Post 22153491)

Originally Posted by klinton (Post 22153500)

Originally Posted by Sarn (Post 22153506)

:1orglaugh
My name is DiMiTrij

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 22153407)

Why do you think they should be educated in the West and do you underestimate the dangers of doing so?

Would it not be better for you to go to the root of the problem? Try Mecca.

Originally Posted by thommy (Post 22153377)

i think there is really NOBODY here what underestimates the danger what comes out of this religion.

i did never speak FOR islam (as i would never speak for any religion) I just see a problem and different solutions.
all solutions i here from people like paul are short term and all logic tells me that this is just making the problem bigger with the time.

so if we do nothing it is a question of time til they eat us alive.

fact is that trying to stop that with hate and power will produce the opposite effect - i hope we can agree at that point.

that logically leads to the fact that it is just a question of time til this oppoite effect have reached that many people that they are able to overrun us.

that means: it is a VERY BAD idea and you do not need many braincells to see that.

Originally Posted by thommy (Post 22153377)

I personally know a few muslim in germany and call them friends. i drink bear with them and even eat pork meat together with them.
what i can observe in the past few years on these people (what i really know for a long long time) that they are feeling more and more like strangers in the country where they are born - just because you can see on their ethnic that they are not german.
they start to feel.
they are facing so much hate just for their look that the only chance they have is to meet with other muslim because they do not face hate there.
i am really scared that people like that are one day FORCED to decide for one of the both groups. and for sure they will not decide for the group what hates them.

Originally Posted by thommy (Post 22153377)

this is why i say that near to 100% of all past terror attacks in the past 10 years have been created by haters what think they are the supremacist race and do not even have the brain of an aunt.

if one of them even would take the time to look at al jazeera and see the other side of the medal and the information and pictures what this people get to see would possibly understand why it is important to show them that we are not dangerous for them, that we do not want to kill them and that would possibly makes them open to listen.

education is a slow process but the one and only what can work here.

Originally Posted by CarlosTheGaucho (Post 22153557)

I am strongly the meaning that we have no business in any land under Islamic rule apart from trade (and this trade should be consumer oriented, not selling own strategical assets or guns - wishful thinking I know).

However, if you were to judge an ideology based on its doctrine (and not based on the followers who often in fact don't follow its doctrine at all, especially in the West) I'd even go as far as to state that Islam equally has no place in lands that are not ruled by it.

There is one principal reason, this ideology has a very strong political part, a total solution not only for its followers, but for the whole world. More than half of its doctrine is not about how to be a follower of Islam, but about how to plot against those that don't follow it, and how to spread Islam in power and numbers, until its reign is absolute.

Based on the history and its doctrine, the nature of Islam is not to come and co-exist. The purpose of Islamic migration (hijra - migration in the name of Allah) which has a massive importance in Islam (after all the Islamic calendar doesn't start with the birth of Muhammad or with his first revelation - 622 AD is the year of Hijra, after he migrated to Medina and started the process of taking over) is different. The purpose is to eventually take over, no matter if by force or by entering the political process. And it doesn't matter how long it takes, in some countries, such as Anatollya (today's Turkey that used to be exclusively Christian) it took centuries to get to the point where Turkey is today 99.7 pct. Islamic. Such is the strength of the doctrine.

There is no land in history that Islam ever entered that would become post-Islamic, unless using brute force (reconquista in Spain, to some extent also parts of Eastern Europe eventually liberating itself from the rule of Ottoman Empire). Up until the 1950's or so, it has been common sense that Islam is pretty much incompatible with any secular, democratic, in fact any non-Islamic society. What has changed ever since? Certainly not Islam.

Today - the official policy on the West is appeasement, certain "sensitive" type of crime is not reported about, Islam can't be critically discussed in public, stating any facts that are negative towards Islam can as much as land you in jail in some western countries (more than 200 years after we get rid of blasphemy laws related to our own Church), make you lose a job or business. This is a true recipe for disaster, and if there ever is a backlash (and there will be eventually) it will be much more due to these policies of appeasement, censorship and "religious" and political prosecution then due to any "-phobia".

One can note that one of the major principles of Sha'ria after Islam enters a Kaffir (non-Islamic) civilization is to establish the command over the Kuffir and make them submit to Islamic requests. So far, many governments, businesses and organizations in the West certainly are very good at that.

The principal issue, there is an ideology that wants to spread their influence and eventually win, but we just want to tie - get along.



Certainly know a few people of Turkish or Middle Eastern descent who may technically qualify as Muslim, but show absolutely no signs of being a follower of Islam. The only thing they want is to get on with their lives, they may be as "western" as you and me.

For sure this is a very pitiful and unwanted thing if people fear or avoid them. But what is also important to understand - these so called moderates and secular guys who simply want to get on with their lives, maybe have affection for their secular country and neighbors, would likely also be the first victims if Islam ever gains enough power.

Islam is an authoritative system, there is only one choice - to submit, there's no space for personal choice, under Islamic rule, these so called moderates can be very easily pronounced Takfir (Muslims that don't follow the doctrine and can be treated as Kaffir) and treated as such.



The principal issue is that the Jihadis not only "think" they are supremacist, the ideology that is supposed to control their lives, and that is supposed to be "the word of god" and a "perfect, final and universal" ideology for the whole world, dictates it. That is the core, systemic issue.

Islam + natural primitiveness it encourages or the opposite, Islam + smarts and being able to use it to control masses (such as its "prophet" did), leads to horrendous results as we can see throughout the history, all across the Islamic lands and today even across the Islamic communities in the west.

I believe that the only thing that can end this is not appeasement, but a thorough education about what Islam is and confronting it ideologically. Not only among those outside of it, but also those "moderates" who often also know very little about it. If there ever will be one thing that will defeat Islam, it will be critical thought. One should also know which principles he wants to live by and where are the borders of what such principles allow and what not.

By the way, and this illustrates it well - one of the Shar'ia principles is that "no criticism of Islam is ever allowed" - if there is one thing that threatens the existence of Islam - it is criticism and critical thought. It's not a coincidence that so called "hate speech laws" were first brought up in UN by the Soviet Union in 1948 and then by OIC (Organization of Islamic Cooperation) in 1999 - totality always has to censor speech and prosecute those that criticize it in order to stay in power.

Originally Posted by klinton (Post 22153509)

Originally Posted by thommy (Post 22153524)

...
your solution is SHORT TERM with an obvious final - what we need is a LONGTERM
SOLUTION
...

Originally Posted by Sarn (Post 22153581)

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh
https://cs4.pikabu.ru/post_img/2015/..._170148405.jpg

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 22151268)

Why do you assume Muslims aren't Right Wing?

They hate foreigners, their own kind, women are second class, they dislike democracy, their rules mandate execution for the smallest of crimes, they don't allow people to leave the religion, they don't allow their children to marry outside the religion. They hate the Jews as much as Hitler and the only thing stopping them overrunning Israel is they would get their asses kicked. So much for a Holy War :1orglaugh Kicking other Muslims asses is easier.

Do you need me to go on?

Explain why you think Muslims deserve a different judgement to white people.

Originally Posted by CarlosTheGaucho (Post 22153557)

I am strongly the meaning that we have no business in any land under Islamic rule apart from trade (and this trade should be consumer oriented, not selling own strategical assets or guns - wishful thinking I know).

However, if you were to judge an ideology based on its doctrine (and not based on the followers who often in fact don't follow its doctrine at all, especially in the West) I'd even go as far as to state that Islam equally has no place in lands that are not ruled by it.

There is one principal reason, this ideology has a very strong political part, a total solution not only for its followers, but for the whole world. More than half of its doctrine is not about how to be a follower of Islam, but about how to plot against those that don't follow it, and how to spread Islam in power and numbers, until its reign is absolute.

Based on the history and its doctrine, the nature of Islam is not to come and co-exist. The purpose of Islamic migration (hijra - migration in the name of Allah) which has a massive importance in Islam (after all the Islamic calendar doesn't start with the birth of Muhammad or with his first revelation - 622 AD is the year of Hijra, after he migrated to Medina and started the process of taking over) is different. The purpose is to eventually take over, no matter if by force or by entering the political process. And it doesn't matter how long it takes, in some countries, such as Anatollya (today's Turkey that used to be exclusively Christian) it took centuries to get to the point where Turkey is today 99.7 pct. Islamic. Such is the strength of the doctrine.

There is no land in history that Islam ever entered that would become post-Islamic, unless using brute force (reconquista in Spain, to some extent also parts of Eastern Europe eventually liberating itself from the rule of Ottoman Empire). Up until the 1950's or so, it has been common sense that Islam is pretty much incompatible with any secular, democratic, in fact any non-Islamic society. What has changed ever since? Certainly not Islam.

Today - the official policy on the West is appeasement, certain "sensitive" type of crime is not reported about, Islam can't be critically discussed in public, stating any facts that are negative towards Islam can as much as land you in jail in some western countries (more than 200 years after we get rid of blasphemy laws related to our own Church), make you lose a job or business. This is a true recipe for disaster, and if there ever is a backlash (and there will be eventually if nothing changes) it may as well be much more due to these policies of appeasement, censorship and "religious" and political prosecution then due to any "-phobia".

One can note that one of the major principles of Sha'ria after Islam enters a Kaffir (non-Islamic) civilization is to establish the command over the Kuffir and make them submit to Islamic requests. So far, many governments, businesses and organizations in the West certainly are very good at that.

The principal issue, there is an ideology that wants to spread their influence and eventually win, but we just want to tie - get along.



Certainly know a few people of Turkish or Middle Eastern descent who may technically qualify as Muslim, but show absolutely no signs of being a follower of Islam. The only thing they want is to get on with their lives, they may be as "western" as you and me.

For sure this is a very pitiful and unwanted thing if people fear or avoid them. But what is also important to understand - these so called moderates and secular guys who simply want to get on with their lives, maybe have affection for their secular country and neighbors, would likely also be the first victims if Islam ever gains enough power.

Islam is an authoritative system, there is only one choice - to submit, there's no space for personal choice, under Islamic rule, these so called moderates can be very easily pronounced Takfir (Muslims that don't follow the doctrine and can be treated as Kaffir) and treated as such.



The principal issue is that the Jihadis not only "think" they are supremacist, the ideology that is supposed to control their lives, and that is supposed to be "the word of god" and a "perfect, final and universal" ideology for the whole world, dictates it. That is the core, systemic issue.

Islam + natural primitiveness it encourages or the opposite, Islam + smarts and being able to use it to control masses (such as its "prophet" did), leads to horrendous results as we can see throughout the history, all across the Islamic lands and today even across the Islamic communities in the west.

I believe that the only thing that can end this is not appeasement, but a thorough education about what Islam is and confronting it ideologically. Not only among those outside of it, but also those "moderates" who often also know very little about it. If there ever will be one thing that will defeat Islam, it will be critical thought. One should also know which principles he wants to live by and where are the borders of what such principles allow and what not.

By the way, and this illustrates it well - one of the Shar'ia principles is that "no criticism of Islam is ever allowed" - if there is one thing that threatens the existence of Islam - it is criticism and critical thought. It's not a coincidence that so called "hate speech laws" were first brought up in UN by the Soviet Union in 1948 and then by OIC (Organization of Islamic Cooperation) in 1999 - totality always has to censor speech and prosecute those that criticize it in order to stay in power.

Originally Posted by PR_Glen (Post 22154391)

blah blah blah... anything to do with Sharia bullshit is extremely limited and an offshoot of most followers. Also Christians at one point were by far much worse at pushing their beliefs at one point in history and were at war for a thousand years because of it. I do believe that any acts of division or violence by these groups should be grounds for immediate deportation in any nation however painting a broad stroke towards all muslim followers is idiotic and simplistic at best.

How would you react to having all Jews flushed out of your nation because of their beliefs? We are all not so removed from such things and it is hypocritical to think your line of thinking is any different.

Originally Posted by CarlosTheGaucho (Post 22153557)

...
By the way, and this illustrates it well - one of the Shar'ia principles is that "no criticism of Islam is ever allowed" - if there is one thing that threatens the existence of Islam - it is criticism and critical thought. It's not a coincidence that so called "hate speech laws" were first brought up in UN by the Soviet Union in 1948 and then by OIC (Organization of Islamic Cooperation) in 1999 - totality always has to censor speech and prosecute those that criticize it in order to stay in power.

Originally Posted by CarlosTheGaucho (Post 22153557)

Certainly know a few people of Turkish or Middle Eastern descent who may technically qualify as Muslim, but show absolutely no signs of being a follower of Islam. The only thing they want is to get on with their lives, they may be as "western" as you and me.

For sure this is a very pitiful and unwanted thing if people fear or avoid them. But what is also important to understand - these so called moderates and secular guys who simply want to get on with their lives, maybe have affection for their secular country and neighbors, would likely also be the first victims if Islam ever gains enough power.

Islam is an authoritative system, there is only one choice - to submit, there's no space for personal choice, under Islamic rule, these so called moderates can be very easily pronounced Takfir (Muslims that don't follow the doctrine and can be treated as Kaffir) and treated as such.

Originally Posted by PR_Glen (Post 22154358)

why do you keep saying Muslims? they make up over a billion people on the planet. Would you label all christians as the same demo? For someone who is completely isolated from the rest of the planet these days you sure have a lot to say about immigrants and Muslims in general.

You need a new hobby Paul. You suck at politics and debate on anything as a whole it seems.

Originally Posted by PR_Glen (Post 22154391)

blah blah blah... anything to do with Sharia bullshit is extremely limited and an offshoot of most followers. Also Christians at one point were by far much worse at pushing their beliefs at one point in history and were at war for a thousand years because of it. I do believe that any acts of division or violence by these groups should be grounds for immediate deportation in any nation however painting a broad stroke towards all muslim followers is idiotic and simplistic at best.

How would you react to having all Jews flushed out of your nation because of their beliefs? We are all not so removed from such things and it is hypocritical to think your line of thinking is any different.

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 22155753)

I doubt very much that Thommy knows any Muslims, he probably has some Muslim acquaintances. Knowing someone is a different level.

To be a Muslim one must adhere to what the Quran commands. And that is very well described in your post.

Originally Posted by thommy (Post 22155828)

what you doubt or not is not important.
your problem is that you have such a small brain that you do not even understand the consequences of what you are praising.

1. I am with you when it comes to the definition what islam is.
I really know that this religion (as many others) have no other target as to keep
people stupid and make them slaves without knowing that they are.

so far so good.

Originally Posted by PR_Glen (Post 22154391)

why do you keep saying Muslims? they make up over a billion people on the planet. Would you label all christians as the same demo? For someone who is completely isolated from the rest of the planet these days you sure have a lot to say about immigrants and Muslims in general.

You need a new hobby Paul. You suck at politics and debate on anything as a whole it seems.

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 22157271)

How would your solution work? Considering changing a complete religions belief is the hardest thing to do.

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 22157307)

Originally Posted by thommy (Post 22155828)

...
2. what you are planning to do is keep them outside and let them breed.
let them teach their children the stories of how much we hate them (what is in parts
not even a lie). than wait til they are strong and united (all of them - also the ones
what are far for terrorism now) and then they will come to do what they got teached.
they will kill us all because they are MUCH MUCH MORE.
...

Originally Posted by PR_Glen (Post 22154391)

blah blah blah... anything to do with Sharia bullshit is extremely limited and an offshoot of most followers. Also Christians at one point were by far much worse at pushing their beliefs at one point in history and were at war for a thousand years because of it. I do believe that any acts of division or violence by these groups should be grounds for immediate deportation in any nation however painting a broad stroke towards all muslim followers is idiotic and simplistic at best.

How would you react to having all Jews flushed out of your nation because of their beliefs? We are all not so removed from such things and it is hypocritical to think your line of thinking is any different.

Originally Posted by klinton (Post 22150680)

yet, if hundreds of people would fire fireworks that way in Poland, there would be already riot police deployed or such people fined for few hundred euros each one.
Where was the German police that time ? :)