JunkyardDog

Anyone else a little concerned that there is "NO" reason to buy porn online anymore?

We give the surfer endless ammounts of free porn. With tgp's and link lists demanding better quality and cleaner galleries everyday, the surfer gets his pick of anything he wants. He can get live video feeds, movies, great pics in any niche he wants just by surfing any tgp or link site. The quality is maybe not that of a paysite but to the surfer looking to get off its pretty damn good. Much better then the scrambled porn on the tube.

There is no reason we should be giving away such good content in such abundance. tgp galleries should be 10 pics max of overcompressed pics. Movies should be no more then 10 second clips also overcompressed. No more of this free shit like join4free and pink4free. If the surfer can get off to content like that, then all the power to them. If they can't they will pay for it.

This business is starting its decline, as the surfers are getting smarter and therefor not buying. If they do, they are taking the trial and cancelling. Profit margins are getting smaller, especially for the gallery makers who are giving away such high quality content and as a result bandwidth is getting sky high and signups are getting lower.

I am sure there are some of you that say things are just great. But I honestly think your being very nieve. Its not to late to correct the problem, it just would take the major traffic players out there to get together and make the change.

Thats just how I am seeing things these days and I have been around since early 96.

I would like to hear everyones thoughts and opinions. good or bad.

Thanks
Brent
Junkyard Dog

jigga

Junkyard - you are so correct when you say that all it would take is for the 150 or so owners of tgp's and link lists that control a decent amout of daily traffic to get together and set a standard. If 90% of the tgp's will list non-quality stuff then webmasters will build non quality stuff then even sites that don't agree with this would have to list the stuff or face having a blank site. Something does need to change.

TFCash

JunkyardDog -

Good point, the thing that I look at, is that it will eventually correct it's self. How you say? Well profits will become so slim that clickthru and signup bonuses will go away. If you paying $40 for a signup and they cancel after the trial, you have to either be shaving the results. Or you have to lower your payout. Same with the clickthrus, if a certain ratio is not held to, then the program becomes unprofitable. When webmasters stop making money, they will quit building web pages, if a newbie comes into the biz and doesn't make any $$'s for a month or two he/she will also quit. So eventually things will even themselves back out. As for TGP's owners if they don't have people submitting these great clean galleries to them, then they wouldn't be posting them. So let's put the blame for too much content where it really is, with the webmasters that make them!!! I would rather get listed in 10 tgp's that allow me to make a couple bucks on my traffic, as opposed to a tgp that requires me treat the surfer with kid gloves. And as I've always said, if all your doing is TGP then you have a rocky road in front of you. Start adding free sites and avs's to you pool of tricks, it doesn't really cost you anymore because you are hopefully already paying for your content, to add a few lines of html in another subdirectory for a freesite and an avs only takes a few minutes


Tim

UnseenWorld

You raise a lot of interesting points. Here's my perspective as a small content provider.

Sites with exclusive content do better than sites which simply buy CD's full of stuff and put it up. You can create your own exclusive content or you can buy it from sources like me, but contrary to what you say, many surfers are tired of seeing the same old shit everywhere they go. If you promise stuff that's new and exciting and can't be had anywhere else, you will still get sign-ups. I do a fair amount of exclusive work for a handful of fairly successful small sites, and this is what they tell me.

Competing with Cybererotica or Kara's Adult Playground is a formula for failure. You can't compete with a site that has 10 million photos, 1 hundred thousand video clips, etc., etc. Instead, work a niche.

The business is not declining. However, the less sharp site operators are finding it harder and harder to make a buck. The days of XPics are over. (Some of you newbies probably don't even know what I'm talking about: 3 or 4 years ago, any drooling idiot could put up a site with some XPics banners, take some basic steps to get traffic, and make at least a few hundred bucks a week. Things have changed since then, and making money requires a lot more shrewdness and effort today.)

In my tour for my own pay site, GirlsDotCom.com, I give away a LOT of free content. However, it is downsized to 440x so as to make it very unattractive to porn collectors, and every pic has my URL on it, in case they do upload the pics to the newsgroups (which I encourage, by the way, since uploading them myself could cause me some headaches).

My membership consists of people who like my photographic style. Sure, a few take advantage of my trial, download a bunch of pics, and quit, but quite a few stay on.

With broadband, video is becoming more important. My exclusive content customers are asking for more and more video all the time. I now have three video cameras: a Hi8, a Digital8, and a MiniDV camera to accommodate my customers' needs and deliver it in whatever format they prefer or can deal with (of course any of them are easily converted to VHS).

Speaking of broadband, here is a REAL problem: Webmasters pay for bandwidth on a metered basis, whereas most surfers surf on a fixed fee basis that hasn't changed in about six or seven years. Anyone see a problem developing here?

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Producer of truly original teen/young woman-oriented adult content at Wonders of the Unseen World

JunkyardDog

Good points being made, but still missing the real point. There will always be a few boneheads that give away the farm in a gallery or free site. So when a tgp owner or link list owner gets these and actually accepts them, then what choice do you have but to follow suit. There are far fewer tgp owners who control the traffic then webmasters making the galleries and free sites. So I feel blame can come to both sides. But its the site owners that have the power to change the industry back on course, not the webmasters cause there is just to many out there to get on the same page. Once nice galleries get declined and the average galleries are the ones accepted it will change. Not many webmasters are happy paying so much for content and bandwidth right now anyways and would love to stop giving away the great pics and hardcore shit. Profits would go up fast.

As for the xpics thing. I think that is true to some point. There are far more people selling porn these days so just by that fact alone it would still take work to sell. But you have zero chance to get back to those days with the rules these major traffic sites have right now. They did what they thought was going to keep them with the competition. But its gotten outta hand lately and soon enough it will backfire.

So why not try and correct this problem before we get to this point.

I dont mind Avs sites, cause your at least making them pay to see some content.

Incognito

Guys !
You are really funny!


In Russia we had an old proverb: "Let a fool pray and he'll break his head on the floor".

What I notice is that You people never take a golden middle position between something - You always take a side and than go as far as You can and that is funny.

Cause as far as I see You got two famous communties : GFY and AWI of which one is basicly fucking people to death by blind links and then by simply INSANE telephone bills from the dialers (8$ per minute , tell me it doesnt hurt the buisness...) and the other one gives so much free content on TGPs You'll never ever see a signup again.


Sorry for that feelings outburst.

Now to the question which indeed is quite interesting:
You cant possibly control what people send to TGPs and You cant really persuade TGP owners to do it. Even if by some miracle You do persuade famous TGP runners to lower down the quality,( although I wonder what will You need to accomplish such a task, a small army at the very least I think ) You will get new TGPs wich will not follow Your ideas simply the same day and will get the market.

Question is than what shall we do if anything?
Well, the problem is not really TGPs afterall. The problem is overall LOW signup ratio and that is the problem wich may be needs fresh solution. There are I beleive several reasons behind it of which I'd say one is that internet porn is simply YET of much worse quality than offline porn. Video for instance.
Another one is that since there are already TGPs out there and thousands of free sites which all together give out LOTS of free content may be it's time to get new services running?

I mean a very simple thing: dont kill TGP webmasters because Your sign up ratio sucks. Instead invest Your ideas in internet video technology, cam technology and think of NEW porn services which can be given.
To evolve is always the only way.

Just my point.

TFCash

Many good points brought out.

when I use fresh content on my AVS's and freesites I get many more signups. I would assume that tgp traffic is the same way.

Webmasters that are going to make it, are those that find new niches to cover, i.e. full screen video to feed those DLS/Cable hungry surfers. Those guys are getting tired of the 10 sec clips and they will pay for high quality movies and live sex shows!

Yes surfers are on a fixed cost model versus the isp which are on a variable model, but that is the reason paysites are still the only way to offer high quality by charging for it! I don't see DSL/Cable/HS wireless changing their pricing models anytime soon, most of them get $30 to $60 a month, and on average most people don't suck up that much traffic with normal surfing. Traffic prices are starting to come down as net pipes get bigger. There are many options for $2 per GB and less out there, they are running at bare bones on profit, but they look at it if they make 50cents per GB and sell a million GB of traffic that is 500K in profit each month!

Can we make tgp owners or submitters change how they do it now ?? No. Because someone will pop up to fill in the gap, just as was said. You will have to find new ways to make a buck. Use fresh content, find new sites to promote that aren't being used by everyone. New ideas.


Tim

jigga

Incognito - no the problem is not just a low signup ratio...the problem is less and less surfers buying, chargebacks, webmasters advertising "napster of porn" free bullshit and stuff like that. It's just hurting the industry as a whole. I am a tgp owner with a decent size tgp and I post quality stuff just to compete with all the other sites that do it. Now if every/majority of tgp owners posted less quality stuff then I for one sure would too because obviously that would make everyone more money.

JunkyardDog

Guys, I dont think its so much that making it right now is a problem. There is still good money out there. But the time for that is rapidly closing and you will see many sponsors reduce payouts and increase shaving.

Are your costs going to go down? no they are not. Are your profits. yeah they will be.

If you dont think thats a problem? It wont matter what niche you try and sell too. Payouts will be lower, retention worse, and price of that niche fresh content extremely high.

Just my opinion

titmowse

Well fellas as a girl I can tell you the problem:

Too many adult webmasters are giving away the cow, the milk and even the homoginization!

To all you TGP and freehost masters: Be like the smart girl that wants her man to stick around and tease tease tease!

Stop being the recipient of the train! Be the fucking engine that DRIVES the train directly to the sponsor!

I can't believe that TGP hosters can't get a nickle an buy a clue. ALWAYS LEAVE THEM WANTING MORE.

TFCash

unfortunately titmowse the free porn is here to stay, until congress makes the choice to start blocking it. We as webmasters need to get better at the art of the tease if we want to continue to make a buck or two. Just because everyone else is doing it, is not a reason to follow, there is no rule that says we have to follow those that put up 25 hi-rez hardcore pics! As I said before I would rather find smaller TGP's that yes may send much less traffic, but if I can convert 1:50 with 1000 hits, that is better than getting 1 sale from the 100K people that one of the big tgp's may send to a gallery


Tim

Incognito

"less and less surfers buying" is actually USUALLY called "low signup ratio".

Each new TGP makes it lower.

"Chargebacks" are a direct result of bad quality for high prices. Or straight surfer bullshitting.

You bullshit them , they complain. The more they complain the more You get chargebacks. The more You get chargebacks the more You complain. The more You complain - the more it gets to media how easy it is to do the damn chargeback , and then when half of the country sees a beautifull report about it on TV then You get a fucking higher rate of them.

To make it better as was said we got to find new ways and new services.

Not to make it worse - You got to know and CARE what You sell.
How many of adult webmasters working in mainstream area got passwords for the sites they sell?

...And they should.

Behind any buisness You got rules You got to know and care about of which one basic rule is the quality of product.
Besides as much as I understand the whole thing most of customers come from USA (which is partially so because billing companies simply authorise their cards better) and as far as I know about USA (would be glad by the way if You tell me , cause I been to almost all europe and never been to States , so my experience about offline life there is based on my friends stories who live there but absolute most of them are russian as me and may be see it all in a different perspective then You natives) is a country where You got so much quality control and biz rules and regulations about quality that customers simply KNOW AND GOT USED that if a slightest thing is wrong they'll get their funds back (as opposed to Russia where once You bought something it may be written that it's the best in the world and costs a fucking fortune but when You open it You find some rotten shit inside with no possibility to get a penny back).

richard123

A reasonable analogy can be drawn between the Net porn business and the transport business (at least in Australia) right now. I used to work for a transport/logistics company for a coupla years, so I know a little about it.

Any moron can go out and get a loan and buy a truck. There is no barrier to entry into the business (cf. newbie setting up free site with illegal content - or even cheap legal content).

Because many truck drivers have little education and are often quite stupid, they work their margins very tight (cf. new webmasters that work day and night to make their $300 per week/month at an effective rate of $2.10/hr).

The solution in the transport business is not a single solution for everyone. For example:
1. Many single contracting truck drivers take speed so they can stay awake longer and drive faster (i.e. webmasters working longer hrs = $1.10/hr).
2. Larger companies invest money in satellite tracking, warehousing services and other add-ons (i.e. video feeds, fast servers, loads of content) and justify higher charges to the customer.
3. Others specialise in transporting/handling very specific types of goods (like a company called Cubico which only does low-density stuff and they have huge custom built trucks) (i.e. niche sites).

There's no point arguing that truck drivers should not enter the business in the first place. As soon as one finally overdoses or ends up in jail, there are another 2 going to buy themselves a new truck and start a business.

There is a move by some unions here to try and force the customers (!!) of transport services to be responsible enuff to see when the rates charged are just too low to make sense. I guess that'd (sort of) be like Ashcroft and co. banning free porn. It may happen, but whether it'd be effective is another story.

So I think incognito and the others saying similar stuff are right. The discussion is somewhat interesting, but ultimately we all have to carve out our own special niche and work with it. I see more and more people saying this, and it certainly works for me.

Susan

Every TGP should display a short message at the head of its main page explaining what's available on the members side of pay sites. I am convinced that many just don't realise what's available by paying.

I have just hit the first 10 links on 3 top TGP's and to be honest there wasn't much in the way of quality pics. Ok there are some galleries where the content almost matches that of a pay site but its not in abundance.

Surfers are not really getting smarter, its all down to the fact that we have made it easier to find for newbies.

Some TGP's have no marketing skills whatsoever, they just hit the visitor with free porn right from the outset. Ok guys, its all well and good you telling them what a kick ass clean free site you have but how about telling them what?s available by paying.

Do you really know what makes them pull out that card ? Would be interesting to see what you guys have to say about this.

Susan

Sorry this was not the place for my last post so I place in in a new topic JOB DONE

There is far too much immaturity in this business.

[This message has been edited by Susan (edited 06-01-2001).]

richard123

I can only speculate, of course, but I'd reckon there could be a multitude of things including:
1. A fast server.
2. The impression that there's lots of content.

But I suspect also it's different for different people - like what type of women (or men?) you go for. If you see what you like... If you see a girl who takes your fancy in a HUGE way. Who knows? Those that truly know what makes a surfer cough up the cash is probably making a lot more than the remaining 99% combined ... if any such person exists.

richard123

You mean new global laws, right?

Susan

Yes I do, but as the US leads the way I think it would be a good starting place

UnseenWorld

Let's stop talking about the surfer as a homogenous person. There are types of surfer. First off, there are guys like me who've been around form the beginning of the Web, there are guys who got on yesterday, and everything in between.

Who is it really who thinks TGP material is adequate to their needs? Whenever I visit TGP's, I'm always frustrated by the lack of photos ON THE PAGE. Just tons of blind links to galleries which are sometimes good, mostly not so good. A lot of space is also devoted to linking to other TGP sites, many of them similarly constructed. It seems that TGP owners don't want to incur ANY bandwidth beyond their logo art and some sponsor banners.

So, the person who thinks TGP's are really cool are people with a lot of time on their hands and really don't know any better. To be frank, we're talking about teenagers without credit cards and people on very low incomes who can just barely afford their monthly $20 ISP bill. No wonder TGP traffic has earned a bad rep.

More experienced people find TGP's frustrating. The photos which are REALLY good can only be found by wading through all the blind-linked galleries one-by-one. We would rather join a site which really gives me a good idea what's on the inside. Yes, tease, but make it clear what you offer. Otherwise, why SHOULD the surfer part with his dough?

Also, let's not overlook the niche site. If a guy wants lactation photos, he'll find it hard to meet his needs in a TGP. Guys seeking major niches (e.g., Asian girls) stand a better chance in a TGP, but even so, a well-constructed Asian site will be worth the money.

And now we come back to having truly original material. Stuff made just for your site. My exclusive content customers don't buy just from me; they have several sources. However, they have learned that being able to say "We have brand new photos available only here" will appeal to the jaded surfer who finds that all too often, two sites will have material in common.

Also, as more and more customers get DSL or cable modem service, some sites, like ten.com, will start to serve this market with higher resolution (bigger) images and more/longer video material. Here is a brand new niche, and one for which a premium price will make sense to a lot of customers.

If you want to make money in this business, get away from TGP's and their traffic. Offer something unique, original, and special. Concentrate on getting quality traffic instead of lots of traffic. When all is said and done, you'll find, to your amazement, that you can eventually make a living on less than 500 uniques a day as you add on members who stick around for many months or even more or less permanently.

The Web is wildly dynamic, and what worked last year can be a losing formula this year. What I've laid out here are fairly long-term principles.

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Producer of truly original teen/young woman-oriented adult content at Wonders of the Unseen World

ldinternet

After 2 serious months of thinking and working hard, I'm well on my way to going full time at this. My business plans are comprised purely of common sense and honesty.

A most luxury villa in Spain can be had for about $200,000. Once you're full time at this biz - and you're earning that kind of money, it is no problem. You wake up each morning, work for 6 hours. Drive your $80,000 car from your villa down to the beach, sit there and relax. Later, maybe go and play golf. Come back home, check your stats for the day and see that you've made thousands of dollars for fuck all work. How? That's AVS. That's Easy.

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[This message has been edited by ldinternet (edited 06-01-2001).]

Warphead

I think what gets overlooked everytime anyone brings up the "TGP's ruining the biz" argument is how come TGP's make money?

I mean what you're saying makes sense until you consider that when I post a gallery I sell memberships. If you were right then no one would make a profit posting galleries, everyone would quit and TGP's would dry up from lack of content.

ldinternet

True dat. Just go to Google.com, type in the name of some porn star.

I'll bet my bottom dollah that it returns a gallery page. Even search engine guys are getting it for free. In this day and age, what the fuck is this world coming to?

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[This message has been edited by ldinternet (edited 06-01-2001).]

loster

Supply and demand...it will figure itself out. Work with it... ;-)

loster


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Dynamic Hosting - Dedicated Server Deals
ICQ: 15898919
Cell: 301-467-6149

Incognito

Well, I happened to do what You write up there once and if all is fine will do it again this summer. Place was COSTA DEL SOL, couple of kilometers from Marbella.

My experience says the following (dont know if You need it though).

1.200 000$ is slightly too much or too low.
I.E. You can buy Your villa for like 120 000$ and it will be the class of villa with no pool of Your own (You'll get a community pool though which is pretty cool too) and generally a cool place to have rest and holiday. But for 120 000$ or for 200 000$ or even for 250 000$ it wont be what You call LUXURY villa.

LUXURY stuff costs pretty much same money as anywhere else.
I'd say You can start with half a million of USD.

2. Hm... I kinda dont know what kind of car You can get for 80 000$ and which will suite You fine in Spain.

As I see it , the coast of Spain is such a place where I think middle class or high class buisness limos simply wont fit and dont fit.
I.E. Driving an E class of Mercedes, BMW 5 or such a car will simply be not comfortable.
People who want to show how unfuckingbeleivably much money they got buy Ferraris over there (which I beleive is more expensive than 80 000) , people who dont want to do that buy something like BMW 3 or feel even better with any kind of Peugot or alike stuff.

It's kinda difficult to explain it. One got to feel it.

But the whole idea is very good.
I had a great time working from there.
Sitting on a balcony of a small villa with a notebook computer on the table looking over Gibraltar (hm... or some other water, my geography sucks BIG TIME) and sunset sure helps and is a fucking dramastic change from Moscow or any other huge city.



[This message has been edited by Incognito (edited 06-02-2001).]

pr0

$200,000 dollar villa's & ferrari's???

I feel like im the poor kid in "Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory" in here posting with you guys! =)

Just remember...no drinking from the chocolate river guys!

Incognito

Hm...
I dont own a ferrari.

And sure AINT drinking from any chocolate rivers. To be even more exact my life is a fucking nightmare and living hell...


One thing I dont like is when people go around boards and start this stupid all the time boasting (like , dudes here's my car and stuff). But the dream that Idinternet guy wrote about was so much what I experienced already so I thought some experience share could help.
Sorry if You got it wrong , I did not indend it to be so.

UnseenWorld

Frankly, if I were making a million bucks, I'd be keeping my mouth shut about it. Who is impressed by this kind of talk, anyway? People with the mind of a 13 year old?

The people I really believe are successful and who I respect don't dazzle me with their flapping lips, they impress me with their knowledge and with impressive sites.

I've been in the webmaster community almost as long as anyone here, I'm sure, and I'm quite familiar with the kind of guy who makes a killing largely by accident, brags about it to the world as if it's his own doing, and then totally misses the bus on the next big trend.

Before you know it, they're back working at Kinko's.

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Producer of truly original teen/young woman-oriented adult content at Wonders of the Unseen World

Incognito

Well. I somehow guess that You're not the only one with such point of view.

The are only two things You miss about it.

First - It's a normal thing to boast if a guy for example runs some kind of program oriented at adult webmasters. Then he simply advertises himself by such stuff.
And dont think that experienced webmasters and people who made their bucks already, and generally such people despise such practices, really matter when it comes to this boasting. You know why?
Cause they cause more problems then newbies and make less money for the sponsor in fact.

You see, in this sponsor thing (same as with Billing companies in fact) a single webmaster who even makes as much as like 6 000$ is not that important. Cause You got to love that guy and to care about him and to give him bonuses and such stuff when in fact it's twice as easy to advertise Yourself a bit and gather like 10 more additional newbie webmasters who'd make 600$ per month each thus bringing same volume with twice less mess.
And the funny thing about adult biz is that for a newbie webmaster it is relatively easy to get to those 600$ and unfuckingbeleivably hard to get to 6000$. So there are simply so much more of those who make 600$ than those who make 6000$ that it is more smart to target Your advertisments ALONG with the way You do it on those who make less but there are much more of them.

That's the same stuff with billing companies. I dont think they really care much about their clients who make big sales. Cause there are so many small paysites and partnership programms around that there's completely same stuff about it like I mentioned up there.

Second - Whenever someone starts that boasting bullshit it does not always mean that the person does not own what he boasts with or does not have money for it. It usually means he simply didnt earn it. In case with cars for example my guess is that half were borrowed (for a lifetime) from all loving and beloved parents...This bullshit is usuall.

Ages may go and pass but one thing has never changed - as long as You make Your buck YOURSELF You never go around and boast about it cause You know how really hard it was.

TheFLY

I think women should stop giving blowjobs... All this free shit just has to stop. We need women to hold out until they are married.


[This message has been edited by TheFLY (edited 06-03-2001).]