offshore processing for sites with BDSM content

[NKYKev]

I was wondering if anyone could recommend quality offshore processing solutions (direct or 3rd party) for sites with BDSM content? I am aware of Verotel; does anyone have experience with others that will process US sites without having to incorporate offshore as well? In light of all the restrictions that came down in 2005 on BDSM content, I am seriously questioning how much longer US based processors will be able to handle it, and want to be prepared if/when they no longer can.

[CuriousToyBoy]

MyVirtualCard can sort you out, no fees and no need for offshore setups.

;-)

[UtahSaints]

Why would you need offshore? BDSM is legal unless its some animal shit or rape?
Tax evasion?

[NKYKev]

Originally Posted by RS-MEDIA

Why would you need offshore? BDSM is legal unless its some animal shit or rape?
Tax evasion?

I guess I should have explained this in a bit more detail. I am not sure if people in the mainstream porn business are aware of the extra restrictions that companies like CCBill and Paycom have added to their US customers, at a minimum, in regards to the content that can be processed on their sites. As shown in this article from May of 2005, CCBill stopped processing for any new client sites that showed blood, urination, or had "violent content." While Paycom had not yet done so, they have added most, if not all, of the restrictions that CCBill has by now. I am not sure about Netbilling.

So, as this demonstrates, BDSM content is not restricted to just no shit, no animals, and no rape scenes. There can be no blood, no urine, no fisting, and now there can be no "violent scenes." Indeed, if the " no violent scenes" restriction was being applied only to activities such as simulated rapes, it would not be a problem. However, as one compliance officer stated to me, the rule about "violent scenes" is that every piece of content must be "100% consensual" at all times.

It is always easier following a rule if it is clear - for example, no watersports. But the "100% consensual" rule is quite another thing. I asked a compliance officer from one of the billing companies about wanting to shoot a vampire movie. He informed me that, even if the movie was clearly labeled as a fantasy (it involves vampires - thought that might have been a given), any "victims" had to ask to be bitten (???) and that even showing fake blood was not acceptable. Obviously, this is a bit limiting for a movie about vampires! So, because of the added element of nudity, a XXX CC processor could not process material with a level of "violence" that otherwise could be shown on NBC!

Just try to get a compliance officer to explain what is, and is not, "100% consensual" and you might understand where the problem kicks in. In the BDSM community, fantasies involving kidnappings, interrogations, being punished by a Dominant, etc., are very popular. But now, should any part of the story/video even sound nonconsensual, it will apparently be deemed too violent, regardless of the context of the story. I know of a professional Dominatrix from NYC who's site was denied by CCBill because of a textual kidnapping story that was deemed "too violent" to process because, in the context of the story, things were being done "against his will" - even though, at the end of the story, it was made clear that it was all consensual.

What did she do? She contacted Verotel, and they had no problem with her content. While Verotel also has a "consensual" rule, at least they seem to take a common sense approach and look at the work/site as a whole - at least for now. Indeed, it seems that sites that process through CCBillEU and PaycomEU are not as affected by these restrictions either, as the public content there is much more extreme that what one sees in the US. While this is great for European sites and webmasters, it doesn't help US based ones.

And lets not forget - if a site violates the content rules of say, CCBill, and you link to that site - well, then you have to take down that link or lose your CCBill processing - even if your site contains no such content! And yes, their acquiring banks do check out sites and their content from time to time.

Obviously, CCBill, etc., are only doing what their banks are telling them to do, and I don't blame them for the situation. But it doesn't change the fact that, as of right now, the very same content that European CC processors seem to have no problem with is prohibited by the US CC processors. In light of the current political climate, I seriously doubt it will be that much longer before any content involving bondage, spanking, etc., is also forbidden by the US processors, consensual or not. That is why I am looking for offshore alternatives - assuming that it will even possible for US based sites to have BDSM content, at this rate.

[NKYKev]

Originally Posted by NaughtyWhores

MyVirtualCard can sort you out, no fees and no need for offshore setups.

;-)

They look interesting, but am I reading their site correctly - they call customers to confirm the transaction? I guess that helps eliminate fraud, but does it impact sales? Can anyone with experience processing with them comment on this?

[stephthegeek]

Ouch, thanks for the CCBill info -- I didn't know that. I'm trying to decide if I want to go with MVC for my billing right now as well.

I used them for some sales back in the fall and didn't seem to have a problem with them calling customers.

[NKYKev]

Originally Posted by stephthegeek

Ouch, thanks for the CCBill info -- I didn't know that. I'm trying to decide if I want to go with MVC for my billing right now as well.

I used them for some sales back in the fall and didn't seem to have a problem with them calling customers.

Good to know. Maybe its just with higher risk transactions?

Yeah, trying to run any sites with BDSM content is doubly difficult. Not only does the content face much more scrutiny when trying to decide if it is "too violent" or "consensual" in order to get a site approved for billing, but just try having to determine what content needs 2257 records for showing "sadistic or masochistic abuse." The rules are just so much more clear for straight porn sites.

[Validus]

Originally Posted by socalkev

I was wondering if anyone could recommend quality offshore processing solutions (direct or 3rd party) for sites with BDSM content? I am aware of Verotel; does anyone have experience with others that will process US sites without having to incorporate offshore as well? In light of all the restrictions that came down in 2005 on BDSM content, I am seriously questioning how much longer US based processors will be able to handle it, and want to be prepared if/when they no longer can.

You might try hitting up Netbilling. Or have you tried that already?

[FetishTom]

Also have the same problem and the only viable solution that I have found is Verotel - which despite the fact that everyone bitches about them has been nothing but first class in my dealings with them from setting up the account to receiving payments promptly.

Am still looking though as want to launch PPV BDSM/S&M content site and Verotel do not have this option

[NKYKev]

Originally Posted by Validus

You might try hitting up Netbilling. Or have you tried that already?

If USA Visa/MC bans any content showing bondage, whippings, etc., which seems more and more likely, using Netbilling - a US company - would not help. For example, if you wanted to start a niche watersports site showing actual contact with a person, you can't process it though CCBill or Paycom, but can through Verotel. The US card processing rules are only going to get more restrictive in the current environment, and BDSM is the natural next target. Its just much more accepted in Europe than here.

[Dagwolf]

Originally Posted by FetishTom

Also have the same problem and the only viable solution that I have found is Verotel - which despite the fact that everyone bitches about them has been nothing but first class in my dealings with them from setting up the account to receiving payments promptly.

Am still looking though as want to launch PPV BDSM/S&M content site and Verotel do not have this option

Actually I've searched around pretty thoroughly and there's not that much bitching. Verotel seems solid, the worst thing anyone's said is that they scrub too hard... and for every one who says that, there are two who say their conversion ratios are excellent.

[NKYKev]

Originally Posted by FetishTom

Also have the same problem and the only viable solution that I have found is Verotel - which despite the fact that everyone bitches about them has been nothing but first class in my dealings with them from setting up the account to receiving payments promptly.

Am still looking though as want to launch PPV BDSM/S&M content site and Verotel do not have this option

It can be done through CCBill's token system or through Paycom's direct product codes, but the content will be more restricted. Verotel can only do this through their Pro accounts, which is quite unfortunate. I know that other options, like YNOTPayment, exist, but have not heard too much from anyone using them.

The issues facing BDSM webmasters are often much different than those facing regular porn sites. Between the fact that most people prefer porn, by far, and that the content that can be shown is often restricted, the most successful BDSM sites all tend to be tbe ones showing straight sex activities mixed in with overtones of BDSM. I wonder how many BDSM only sites even have enough volume to get their own merchant accounts?

[jungar]

Originally Posted by socalkev

They look interesting, but am I reading their site correctly - they call customers to confirm the transaction? I guess that helps eliminate fraud, but does it impact sales? Can anyone with experience processing with them comment on this?

Hey Socalkev,

We no longer use the automated telephone callback system. Please feel free to shoot me an email to discuss further - jungar - at - myvirtualcard dot com. Thanks very much!

Josh
myVirtualCard

[Kimmykim]

Originally Posted by socalkev

I was wondering if anyone could recommend quality offshore processing solutions (direct or 3rd party) for sites with BDSM content? I am aware of Verotel; does anyone have experience with others that will process US sites without having to incorporate offshore as well? In light of all the restrictions that came down in 2005 on BDSM content, I am seriously questioning how much longer US based processors will be able to handle it, and want to be prepared if/when they no longer can.

If you want to be in compliance and continue to be able to process, you will need to have a corporation in the region where your bank settles. Otherwise you run the risk of being terminated for non-compliance.

[Zprogramz]

To get an offshore merchant account, I think you need to be doing saome pretty decent volume, no?

Z

[NKYKev]

Originally Posted by Kimmykim

If you want to be in compliance and continue to be able to process, you will need to have a corporation in the region where your bank settles. Otherwise you run the risk of being terminated for non-compliance.

Understood - but if it becomes necessary, it is better to incorporate elsewhere than not be able to process cards at all. And I have a pretty strong feeling that the closer we get to the 2006 election, the more likely this will become.