Manwin Official Statement re acquisition of Brazzers - Page 10 - GoFuckYourself.com

JFK · 07-20-2010, 04:19 PM

Four Fitty acquisitions

will76 · 07-20-2010, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wargames

Nope 25 of the latest 30 videos on PH are sponsored vids looks like PH is cleaning up

LMAO so only 15% on the first page are potentially stolen.... whooa looks good enough to me, where do i sign up to do business with them.

What ever it takes for you to justify doing business with someone.

Never mind the fact they really don't have to have stolen content on their sites any more. None of it was ever user generated anyway. It was all from content producers or from membership sites all of which are tripping over each other to put the past in the past and blow Nathan to try to get traffic from him. Why would PH bother with user submitted shit, it is easier for them to work with the owners of the content, now that the owners are begging to be on the site vs trying to get their content removed.

Funny how things change over time.

Big bad website steals your content, costs you sales and fucks you. Everyone hates them. Sales get tough (partly because of big bad website) and owners go from trying to get content removed to begging to have it listed as long as their is a link back. I know each of those owners justified this in their own heads but the ones that were getting their content stolen from them and now are doing business with PH, deep down inside how does it feel? How does it feel now to have to blow the company that was fucking you, all because you need the sales now to stay alive? It must suck, but hey do what you got to do and say what you got to say to make yourself feel better about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loch

No but if they have a copyright they actually stand to make some serious cash if suing, much like Pink Visual is doing.

To copyright your content costs almost nothing, most people are just too lazy to even look into it.

I guess we will see how that turns out, if they win and if they can actually collect on it. I would guess some tube sites operate in countries where it doesn't matter if you sue them, you will never collect.

If pink visual wins then I think everyone would be stupid not to copyright their content, until then I think it is yet to be seen if it matters or not.

will76 · 07-20-2010, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timoxxl2

we should recommend this thread as an introduction to the adult industry

this thread can be summed up like all of those stupid GFY situations where:

Person steals and gets out'ed. Evidence is staked against person and he can not try to deny it. Person makes a post saying " I messed up, I am sorry" GFY retards chime in saying " Wow that is so big of you to own to your mistake, you are top notch".

Like the person had any other choice, and instead of holding them accountable you idiots reward them for saying sorry.

This thread seems like it is along the same lines but just different situation. In this case, people are talking about how top notch Brazzers are now because they want $omething out of it. And in this case Brazzers isn't apologizing just throwing out millions of dollars and lots of traffic.

Far-L · 07-20-2010, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by will76

Yes that is my personal opinion. You (and all of the other companies) working with them are more concerned about making sales, no matter who you do business with and how that business conducts itself today and did so in the past. As long as you can make a buck from it. Hey I have no problem with that. Some people are only concerned about making a buck no matter what the cost or the thieves they partner with. If that is you then more power to you, just be up front and honest about it. Don't try to pretend you have good business ethics and are doing business on the up and up when you are working with tube sites that are or were stealing everyone else's content and profiting off of it.

Tell you what. Show me the proof of them "stealing" content and I will be happy to agree with you. In the absence of such proof, you are simply entitled to your opinion like everyone else. In my opinion, you don't really know what ethics are in the first place, and in the second place, your assumptions about who we do or do not do business with are just wrong and sometimes even deflammatory.

There are plenty of people that we do not do business with because we have issues with their manner of doing business, their ethics, and past experiences with them or even the companies that associate with them. We are happily not "bros", and our stringency about whom we work with has been a major factor in our slow growth. I am supposed to take your baseless accusations that are unproven over my own experience, the advice of our attorneys, and the reality of current market conditions? No thanks. I am fine with you thinking you are somehow morally superior and that we are somehow desperate and grasping at anything to save our pitiful morally bankrupt biz.

will76 · 07-20-2010, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Far-L

My position is based on facts. I don't know for a fact who puts up our clips without authorization. I consider it unethical to blame someone, based so far on circumstantial and not factual evidence, which also happens to be the standard for the US legal system. For us it is a fact that if our clips went up without persmission then they were taken down promptly with notice. That might make the situation a pain in the ass but it is not necessarily unethical. If we figured out how to turn that negative into a positive then that doesn't make us unethical either; business-wise, that simply makes us pragmatic. .

keep telling yourself what ever you want to make yourself feel better.

If I close my eyes then I don't know for a fact what is right in front of me because I can't see it.

You have to be an idiot to realize that all of these big sites like pornhub, youporn etc... didn't start off with stolen content. They popped up one day with thousands of videos on them, from day one. How did those videos get there? user submitted content? what from the first surfer who hit there site, found 0 videos on it and then went and joined a bunch of membership sites, stole all of their content and then uploaded it to the tube site. WOW, those tube sites sure were lucky to have the first surfer to find their site go and "user submit" all of the content on it.

Everyone knows that these tube sites went and uploaded the majority of the content, if not all of it themselves. Just keep covering your eyes with your hands and pretend that you don't see. " i don't know for a fact who puts up our content "

didn't someone say that their user submission shit was suspended but yet stolen content kept popping up. Unbelievable the extent some of you will go to justify this shit in your head so you can still try to make yourself appear to be a stand up guy... too funny. I think the only one buying your bullshit is you. everyone else not sucking off brazzers sees it for what it really is. Like i said though, hey if it is what it is that is fine too, just dont try pretend it is something else.

Far-L · 07-20-2010, 05:17 PM

Nice try to introduce metaphysics into the debate but I suggest you go back and read Plato, Aristotle, and Socrates - you will certainly want to ruminate on the allegory of the cave some more.

I am not in this debate to win a popularity contest - which you so often seem to be doing when you champion whatever cause of the week you think will make you look important and purposeful. I am just speaking from a different point of view, and an experience that is not consistent with what others are claiming. The fact that I know it is unpopular but I am still willing to present my experience and suffer the consequences regardless speaks to my character, regardless what you think or assume or accuse without merit or proof.

Qbert · 07-20-2010, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Far-L

I don't consider that to be unethical

Your own words say far more than anything else I could add. Case closed.

bdjerk · 07-20-2010, 06:10 PM

this is good for another 5 pages at least.

Far-L · 07-20-2010, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qbert

Your own words say far more than anything else I could add. Case closed.

You still don't even have a clue what I am saying so don't even pretend like you can offer anything to this debate. You don't have to use me as your excuse for your failures either.

I would like my fries extra crispy please.

And if you spit in them that would be highly unethical...

topnotch, standup guy · 07-20-2010, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Far-L

Tell you what. Show me the proof of them "stealing" content and I will be happy to agree with you.

Are you fucking serious?

Do you need proof that wood comes from trees too? Or that fish live in water?

This is sad really.

I can remember when you used to come off as being pretty knowledgeable.

And now?

Now you're just another tube boy.

AsianDivaGirlsWebDude · 07-20-2010, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AsianDivaGirlsWebDude

As much as I appreciate your kind offer Nathan/Fabian, I do not wish to in any way appear to be perceived as being bought off with an expenses-paid trip to the AVN show. I assure you that I can easily afford to travel there on my own funds, if I so wish to.

How about instead, you respond here forthrightly, and 100% honestly, in public, to some questions which I and others have posed, such as:

1) Who are your partners/investors in Manwin?

2) What is your plan (besides hiding behind the ridiculous provisions of the DMCA safe harbor provisions, which hopefully will be changed soon) for ensuring that your Manwin company, and known/suspected associates/entities/properties (such as Brazzers, JuggCash, KeezMovies, PornHub, Xtube, ExtremeTube, Tube8, MovieBox, Sex In Your City, etc), quit screwing over the rest of the industry by seemingly engaging in allowing obvious non-copyright holders/employees to post long scenes (or any scenes for that matter) of videos which they have no copyright to on any of your sites?

3) What role, if any, do Stephane Manos (Man) or hahahahahahaha (oops, forgot, for some reason O-u-i-s-s-a-m, without hyphens, appears as hahahahahahaha on GFY) Youseff (Sef) play in Manwin's current operations?

4) Does Virage Media Limited still exist? If not, when did it cease to exist, and why? Are the former Virage Media Ltd properties now part of Manwin?

5) When did Manwin come into existence, and who are the partners/investors?

6) When did Manwin acquire Mansef? In March or July, or whatever date?

7) Is Bob Rice still a part of your Manwin operation? If not, when did he leave?

8) What business relationship/association(s) have you, or any companies associated with you, (such as Virage Media or HQtube and Xtube) had with Envisionext/Stan Fiskin?

9) What business relationship, if any, do you have with Jain Shaileshkumar (aka Sam Jain) or Bjorn Daniel Sundin (aka Daniel)? Some people here seem to think there is a money connection somehow.

10) Would you consider contributing some of Manwin's profits to an industry-wide anti-copyright/anti-piracy effort?

I have other straightforward questions, but I will save them for now. If you can straightforwardly answer the questions above, I will refrain from posing any additional questions, since I do not wish to cause you or your family any personal embarrassment, nor possible legal issues.

I assure you that I am not attempting in any way to destroy you or your reputation, as you maudlinly claim (I suspect, in some way to gain sympathy/pity).

I'm simply asking questions which I perceive that you have repeatedly ducked, dodged, and otherwise parried from.

None of the information I have posted is personal (even if you or anyone else chooses to take it personally).

Most, if not all, of the info I have posted about, came from easily accessible public sources on the internet, such as LinkedIn, and Google searches of your name, your nicks, and your various company names, plus names of people associated (or said to possibly be associated) with you.

I assure you that I have not hacked into anything that is private or otherwise secure information. That is outside of my nature/proclivity, and skill-set.

If you wish to be perceived as a respectable member of the adult industry (and I know many already do respect you for some of your past achievements - some of which I respect as well), by answering forthrightly, the simple questions which I have posed here, and prove yourself to sincerely and aggressively stand against content/copyright piracy (not just for your own content, but for the entire industry), then you may be surprised to find a strong ally in me.

Respectfully yours,

ADG

It should be around 8am in Deutschland now. Rise and shine Mr. Manwin Managing Partner (is every partner at Manwin as "silent" as you are? Pardon the pun).

You are not doing much of a job representing your company when you go on a forum and ask people to trust you, but then refuse to respond to simple questions posed to you.

You indicated the obvious, that given their legal problems and perceptions within the adult industry, Mansef/Manwin needs to make changes and improve it's image within the industry, and change it's practices (one of which was lying).

I'm giving you an opportunity right here to do that...

Your forthright answers to the ten questions posed above would be greatly appreciated...

ADG

Socks · 07-20-2010, 11:32 PM

The thing that doesn't make sense to me about this whole scenario is this:

Whatever the price for Brazzers was, it was a lot. People have said $140m, dunno where that came from, and Nathn has disputed that number if I remember right.

Nobody spends that much money by themselves, it's just too much risk. So like banks, they use risk management. They would pool a team of people together to create a fund for such a thing.

Then again, I don't really care who owns it, or how many partners there are, etc. But that strikes me as odd. Who gambles with that much money, without at least spreading the risk around?

DateDoc · 07-20-2010, 11:32 PM

Maybe you guys are having some affect. Tube8 only has two new movies in the last 20 hours!

AsianDivaGirlsWebDude · 07-20-2010, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DateDoc

Maybe you guys are having some affect. Tube8 only has two new movies in the last 20 hours!

Day off for the employees?

ADG

crazytrini85 · 07-21-2010, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Far-L

Tell you what. Show me the proof of them "stealing" content and I will be happy to agree with you. In the absence of such proof, you are simply entitled to your opinion like everyone else. In my opinion, you don't really know what ethics are in the first place, and in the second place, your assumptions about who we do or do not do business with are just wrong and sometimes even deflammatory.

There are plenty of people that we do not do business with because we have issues with their manner of doing business, their ethics, and past experiences with them or even the companies that associate with them. We are happily not "bros", and our stringency about whom we work with has been a major factor in our slow growth. I am supposed to take your baseless accusations that are unproven over my own experience, the advice of our attorneys, and the reality of current market conditions? No thanks. I am fine with you thinking you are somehow morally superior and that we are somehow desperate and grasping at anything to save our pitiful morally bankrupt biz.

I can't figure you out.

On one hand you will put up a fight against another force threatening the industry, and are known for being an honest company, then on the other hand turn a blind eye to one of the biggest thieves in the business and try to find a way to do business with them.

I doubt it, but are sales at Home Grown that bad?

Brazzers has been stealing for so long people have stopped digging for proof, but at one time there was a lot of it out there. Since Nathan took over I don't think anyone has looked because this is all old news.

will76 · 07-21-2010, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Far-L

Tell you what. Show me the proof of them "stealing" content and I will be happy to agree with you. In the absence of such proof, you are simply entitled to your opinion like everyone else. In my opinion, you don't really know what ethics are in the first place, and in the second place, your assumptions about who we do or do not do business with are just wrong and sometimes even deflammatory.

What are you talking about? My assumptions about who you do business with? You said you do business with Pornhub, I am commenting on that. What have I said defamatory about you?

I already gave you proof of stealing. If you can't use common sense to see how those videos got on those tube sites, that those tube sites profit off of stolen content, then ask me this one simple question how did all of the stolen content get there in the first place from day 1? users just showed up and started filling up an empty site.... build it and the porn users will come

Quote:

Originally Posted by Far-L

There are plenty of people that we do not do business with because we have issues with their manner of doing business, their ethics, and past experiences with them or even the companies that associate with them. We are happily not "bros", and our stringency about whom we work with has been a major factor in our slow growth. I am supposed to take your baseless accusations that are unproven over my own experience, the advice of our attorneys, and the reality of current market conditions? No thanks. I am fine with you thinking you are somehow morally superior and that we are somehow desperate and grasping at anything to save our pitiful morally bankrupt biz.

Can you name some people you don't do business with, some of these "plenty people" just curious how many of them you could actually stand to gain from. Or if your decision to not do business with them is based more off of if you can profit from them or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Far-L

I am not in this debate to win a popularity contest - which you so often seem to be doing when you champion whatever cause of the week you think will make you look important and purposeful. I am just speaking from a different point of view, and an experience that is not consistent with what others are claiming. The fact that I know it is unpopular but I am still willing to present my experience and suffer the consequences regardless speaks to my character, regardless what you think or assume or accuse without merit or proof.

lol cause of the week. In 7 years of posting on GFY I've "campaigned" 2 issues... stolen traffic and sales from spyware and sites profiting off of stolen content. That = "cause of the week", you exaggerate much?

The fact that you know it is unpopular and post about you doing business with sites that profit off of stolen content isn't anything short of you just trying to justify it in your own head. Funny I always took you to be Mr. On the right side of the issue, but hell when it comes to a top 100 site that is sending you traffic and sales I can see why you are going out of your way to try to justify to yourself, more so than anyone here that you are still doing the right thing... but in order for you to be doing the right thing than you have to convince everyone that porn hub is not bad... good luck with that one!

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazytrini85

I can't figure you out.

On one hand you will put up a fight against another force threatening the industry, and are known for being an honest company, then on the other hand turn a blind eye to one of the biggest thieves in the business and try to find a way to do business with them..

It is rather simple. They had nothing to gain from Acacia, why not fight them. Acacia was shaking everyone down. It was either give in and pay them, ignore them and get sued and have a weak case for avoiding it, or fight them.

On the other hand, porn hub has tons of traffic and sales to send them. So why would he fight them and lose that traffic and sales.

Makes perfect sense to me.

Brujah · 07-21-2010, 01:08 AM

Someone should save all these pages. I predict this thread disappears before end of month.

ladida · 07-21-2010, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by will76

It is rather simple. They had nothing to gain from Acacia, why not fight them. Acacia was shaking everyone down. It was either give in and pay them, ignore them and get sued and have a weak case for avoiding it, or fight them.

On the other hand, porn hub has tons of traffic and sales to send them. So why would he fight them and lose that traffic and sales.

Makes perfect sense to me.

Exactly. Plus, they can ride the "we are a honest company" slogan all day long based on that.

bdjerk · 07-21-2010, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brujah

Someone should save all these pages. I predict this thread disappears before end of month.

all they'd really have to do is buy advertising or a skin and POOF it would all go away, along with any other threads started.

Far-L · 07-21-2010, 10:47 AM

Good morning haters.

Here is the rundown...

First, we could've sold you guys out and made out like bandits on the Acacia deal. If you don't believe me, then talk to some of those that did settle with them and ask what terms they were offered.

Next, I cannot talk specifically about our CE case but suffice to say many people thought we were kicking a gift horse in the mouth when we went into arbitration with them. I am not going to name names for the others we won't do biz with but most of them are well known, highly respected, buyers of drinks at shows. I don't need to add to the drama by indulging your curiousity for our blacklist.

Seriously, the moment PV or anyone else brings a case and proves that they have stolen content then I will apologize to everyone, but in the meantime, my dealings with the company are not consistent with what others claim. Why should I believe anyone else's hearsay over my own experience? Seriously? Do you expect me to run a business based on what other people are saying and doing? I don't know you. I don't trust you. I am not about to jump on the "We hate tubes" bandwagon just because you did or did not.

You are welcome to disapprove, and to think we are desperate. On that point we can discuss it again in a year or so and see who is still in business.

will76 · 07-21-2010, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Far-L

Seriously, the moment PV or anyone else brings a case and proves that they have stolen content then I will apologize to everyone, but in the meantime, my dealings with the company are not consistent with what others claim. .

/end of thread. You are the only person that doesn't think they have stolen content on porn hub, that there was never stolen content on porn hub, and that porn hub only exists because it made (makes) tons of money from stolen content - other people's hard work.

Far-L · 07-21-2010, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by will76

/end of thread. You are the only person that doesn't think they have stolen content on porn hub, that there was never stolen content on porn hub, and that porn hub only exists because it made (makes) tons of money from stolen content - other people's hard work.

We have found plenty of our content on there that was not placed by us. We ask to have it taken down or replaced with our authorized copy. They comply. Promptly. End of problem. And end of story.

Ad-Min · 07-21-2010, 11:45 AM

Just a stupid question but what "if" they really have sold Mansef.
How quick would you turn down the whole stolen content?
I mean,they have a million vids on their tubes,millions of users which submit new movies every minute.
How quick would you be able to take down all the stolen content (with original description and alternative description)??
I am just wondering,i have not read the whole thread but "if" they have bought it you should give them time.
If i would buy such a network i wouldn´t be able to do it and of course i wouldn´t take down the sites to make sure everything is fine,this does not make sense.
But hey,it´s not my business.

SteveLightspeed · 07-21-2010, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Far-L

We have found plenty of our content on there that was not placed by us. We ask to have it taken down or replaced with our authorized copy. They comply. Promptly. End of problem. And end of story.

Far-L, can I steal your car and trash it, as long as I promptly give it back to you when you find me? With all due respect, I don't see how anyone can do biz like that. Theft is theft. Even if I only steal other people's cars, would that make a difference?

Steve Lightspeed

Far-L · 07-21-2010, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveLightspeed

Far-L, can I steal your car and trash it, as long as I promptly give it back to you when you find me? With all due respect, I don't see how anyone can do biz like that. Theft is theft. Even if I only steal other people's cars, would that make a difference?

Steve Lightspeed

The difference here though Steve, to use your analogy, if you stole my car, which is a Model H, a Homegrown Cruiser with turbo power content and painted with our logos, and you drive it around until I get it back, you just did some solid advertising for us. I don't consider the content to be "trashed and crashed" because it went on the tube freeway. On the contrary, the more exposure, while it may have caused a dent or two, provided us with critical feedback to improve our design, generated tons of branding that elevated our organics, and created opportunities to find more distributors.

We tackled this problem from the beginning with carrot and stick. Work with us and get the carrot. Don't work with us and get the stick. People have been stealing our content since before most people here were even old enough to use a computer. We have been up against this problem since day one; now, instead of spending all our money on attorneys to fight it to a phyrric finish, we chose to try and work with people first. Most people I see just complaining, railing, and otherwise getting nowhere. We turned a negative into a positive, an enemy into an ally, and learned how to work with the situation. That doesn't make us evil. You of all people should get this.

Far-L · 07-21-2010, 12:58 PM

Wow... so looks like Microsoft is a bigger thief than Brazzers!

Just go to Bing, search videos, and put in a term like "porn". Who uploaded all that freaking content without permission?

Somebody have Bill Gates contact info?

ProG · 07-21-2010, 01:10 PM

Fabian were you involved with PornGraph? Just curious...

ProG · 07-21-2010, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Far-L

Wow... so looks like Microsoft is a bigger thief than Brazzers!

Actions speak louder than words and who you associate yourself with says a lot about you

Half man, Half Amazing · 07-21-2010, 01:47 PM

Far-L:

How is it possible that the day that ExtremeTube.com opened there were already thousands of vids on there? Thousands of copyrighted un-licensed vids just magically appeared before the site was even open to the public?

You should have read my Connecting the Dots article where I showed that the VERY FIRST member to be signed up to PornHub had uploaded a few 100 videos and made comments on other people's profile representing himself as an admin for the site. That not good enough proof to you? After I pointed out all these shady things, Brazzers...errr Pornhub quickly went and changed their tube site. All the while they were denying they owned these sites...if they were so legit then why were they trying to deceive people?

Ok, how about this...Brazzers running a tube site WITHIN their members area of Brazzers.com so you as a copyright holder would have no idea your content was being stolen unless you yourself became a member of Brazzers. This also gave them a nice way of adding value to their memberships..."why sign up for Homegrown...by being a member of Brazzers you can upload all the Homegrown content you want just keep it on the downlow"

You're doing business with the biggest copyright infringers our industry has ever known. You're judged by the company you keep. Go ahead and make your money with them, just know that they're making 10 times that by using your stolen content. Content with the table scraps? Your choice.

Far-L · 07-21-2010, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProG

Actions speak louder than words and who you associate yourself with says a lot about you

What a great generalization that says everything and nothing at the same time. Hey, try these on for size... when you ain't got nothing, you got nothing to lose... and time waits for no one and no one waits for time... you look like I'm tripping...

The strangest part of this is no matter how much I discuss this issue as a business consideration worth debate and try to keep it professional, folks like you and others simply want to insult me in such oblique ways.

The sad part is that if that is all you are going to do to address the problem is insult me then there is probably a good reason why the tube revolution has hurt your business so much.

Half man, Half Amazing · 07-21-2010, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Far-L

The sad part is that if that is all you are going to do to address the problem is insult me then there is probably a good reason why the copyright infringement revolution has hurt your business so much.

Fixed for ya!

ProG · 07-21-2010, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Far-L

The sad part is that if that is all you are going to do to address the problem is insult me then there is probably a good reason why the tube revolution has hurt your business so much.

What are you doing to address the problem? If you can't beat them join them?

Far-L · 07-21-2010, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half man, Half Amazing

Fixed for ya!

lol, thanks for putting words I didn't say into my mouth. Still, you make a good point - I agree there is a fundamental and elemental revolution going on regarding Intellectual Property, copyrights, patents, etc.

I don't pretend to know how everything will shake out. I just know we are going to do our best to protect our content and survive in the current marketplace.

Half man, Half Amazing · 07-21-2010, 02:31 PM

So Far-L, would you do business with The Pirate Bay? After all, there's no proof anyone working there uploaded a single torrent file. And they aren't required to comply with DMCA laws since it's a US law.

So by the rationale you've laid out to us, there should be nothing stopping you from seeing any problem with the ethics of The Pirate Bay.

Here's the thing man, you're entitled to do business with whomever you want. We can criticize you for it, but at the end of the day it's your decision to make as a business owner. Where I think you really insulted the intelligence of a lot of people is when you started down the path of "show me evidence" that Brazzers has ever done anything wrong. You're taking pages out of the Jules Denial Jordan playbook there.

Stick to your guns on your decision to do business with them, but don't come in here defending Brazzers like they're squeaky clean.

Far-L · 07-21-2010, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half man, Half Amazing

So Far-L, would you do business with The Pirate Bay? After all, there's no proof anyone working there uploaded a single torrent file. And they aren't required to comply with DMCA laws since it's a US law.

So by the rationale you've laid out to us, there should be nothing stopping you from seeing any problem with the ethics of The Pirate Bay.

Here's the thing man, you're entitled to do business with whomever you want. We can criticize you for it, but at the end of the day it's your decision to make as a business owner. Where I think you really insulted the intelligence of a lot of people is when you started down the path of "show me evidence" that Brazzers has ever done anything wrong. You're taking pages out of the Jules Denial Jordan playbook there.

Stick to your guns on your decision to do business with them, but don't come in here defending Brazzers like they're squeaky clean.

Seriously, first let me thank you for actually raising debatable points rather than just attacking me personally. The difference in Pirate Bay is they would not take content down and that is why they got into the hassles they got into, worldwide, regardless of US copyright laws, so that answer is provided based on the reality of how they conducted biz. Sure, we could post our clips there with some branding but that was all we could do to address them using our content without permission. Therefore they are a different problem and not the same beast of a problem as the tubes.

To say that I am denying what you and others say about Brazzers is inaccurate also. I am not going to determine their guilt based on what is essentially hearsay arguments and circumstantial evidence that runs counter to our own experience. I am suspicious of them but I am suspicious of you, Steve, and everyone else here and I don't trust anyone in this biz for the most part. However, for us, they are innocent until PROVEN guilty and not the other way around. I hope you get my point.

To sum it up... I don't defend their innocence or prove their guilt. I just found that we could address any problems we had with our content going up easily and professionally and in the way that market conditions dictated. Same with Youporn and other tubes that would take down our stuff with appropriate notices.

I am not familiar enough with the start of Brazzers to comment on what they did in the beginning, but knowing the history of this industry, the idea that people used content without permission is not a surprise. An inconvenience yes, but par for the course - albeit unfortunately.

Anyway, I feel like I am in the midst of the same deluge Shap went through on this score a couple years back.

Far-L · 07-21-2010, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProG

What are you doing to address the problem? If you can't beat them join them?

Tell me how much you pay month to month on legal to address IP issues? If it is more than we do then I will bow to your efforts and give praise. But if we spend more then you should just bend over and kiss my ass...

erooup · 07-21-2010, 03:28 PM

Nathan/Fabian

Are you gonna comment on what ADG posted? This point particularly:

Quote:

With regards to Envisionext, Nathan/Fabian tried to deny anything more than a fraternal relationship with the Envisionext President/CEO, Stan Fiskin (Envisionext did some design work for Virage Media).

Yet in an X-Biz article about the new Virage VP for Mergers and Acquisitions, Bob Rice (who has not been mentioned much, if at all, in this thread), it is stated that Virage acquired Envisionext (anyone know what Bob Rice is up to these days?):

Virage Media specializes in strategic investments and recently acquired XTube.com and IWantU.com. The company owns New Jersey-based Envisionext Inc., a web design and solutions firm with offices in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, and other U.S. and European cities.

Or did your iPhone stop working?

erooup · 07-21-2010, 03:35 PM

Who said "don't answer the question you were asked, but they question you wish they have asked"?

McNamara mentioned it in "The Fog of War", but I forgot the original source.

will76 · 07-21-2010, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Far-L

Tell me how much you pay month to month on legal to address IP issues? If it is more than we do then I will bow to your efforts and give praise. But if we spend more then you should just bend over and kiss my ass...

seriously, fuck you and your "i am better than everyone" attitude because you spend this or that. Bottom line is everyone knows what you are doing here and no on agrees with you.

Your argument that " well they take down the stolen content when we ask " is just fucking lame.

They know there is stolen content on their site. They do NOTHING to stop it (key word being STOP it). They could put safe guards in place to prevent it from happening. If someone produced a homemade clip it would be easy for them to prove they owned it. For the studious and companies like yourself it would be easy for you to prove to them you own the content.

However those sites don't give a fuck, they dont care to control what content ends up on their site and they could give a fuck if there is stolen content or not. Them taking down a video when you ask is a laugh. Wow so IF you find your stolen content on their site they will take it down. Then the next day it is back up again. Then you have to find it again and ask again, then they take it down again. Oh look a couple days later it is back again, etc... its a fucking joke, being played on you. You are the monkey they are making jump through the hoop. And makes it even worst is that you convinced yourself that what they are doing is OK, because you don't do business with bad guys so you trying to convince us and everyone else that Porn Hub is a good site to do business with

Look at the responses here, it isn't like I am off in left field. Everyone disagrees with you even other program owners like yourself. Stop making excuses for them. What you are doing is like sucking their dick with the lights off and because you can't see its a guy you are trying to tell everyone you are not gay.

BTW, you have avoided the question of " how did all of the content get their in the first place if the site owner didn't go steal it". Asked about 3 or 4 times, you avoided it every time.

Far-L · 07-21-2010, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erooup

Who said "don't answer the question you were asked, but they question you wish they have asked"?

McNamara mentioned it in "The Fog of War", but I forgot the original source.

Sounds like something Kissinger would've said...

erooup · 07-21-2010, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Far-L

Sounds like something Kissinger would've said...

Kissinger would lie

Far-L · 07-21-2010, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by will76

seriously, fuck you and your "i am better than everyone" attitude because you spend this or that. Bottom line is everyone knows what you are doing here and no on agrees with you.

Your argument that " well they take down the stolen content when we ask " is just fucking lame.

They know there is stolen content on their site. They do NOTHING to stop it (key word being STOP it). They could put safe guards in place to prevent it from happening. If someone produced a homemade clip it would be easy for them to prove they owned it. For the studious and companies like yourself it would be easy for you to prove to them you own the content.

However those sites don't give a fuck, they dont care to control what content ends up on their site and they could give a fuck if there is stolen content or not. Them taking down a video when you ask is a laugh. Wow so IF you find your stolen content on their site they will take it down. Then the next day it is back up again. Then you have to find it again and ask again, then they take it down again. Oh look a couple days later it is back again, etc... its a fucking joke, being played on you. You are the monkey they are making jump through the hoop. And makes it even worst is that you convinced yourself that what they are doing is OK, because you don't do business with bad guys so you trying to convince us and everyone else that Porn Hub is a good site to do business with

Look at the responses here, it isn't like I am off in left field. Everyone disagrees with you even other program owners like yourself. Stop making excuses for them. What you are doing is like sucking their dick with the lights off and because you can't see its a guy you are trying to tell everyone you are not gay.

BTW, you have avoided the question of " how did all of the content get their in the first place if the site owner didn't go steal it". Asked about 3 or 4 times, you avoided it every time.

Cut me a break. The only reason you feel threatened by me saying to prove you put your money where your mouth is because you actually haven't done anything other than bitch about stuff and you haven't actually done much to really do anything about this at all other than preach to the choir.

I have already answered your question - I said I don't know and I don't believe your version of events based on hearsay and I showed you the Bing example to give one potential example of how to start with content.

Now, calm down and try to remain professional. Just because I disagree with you is no need to get so piqued. If you stick to the topic maybe people will actually learn something - whether you or I are right or wrong. Reduce it to name calling and swearing and all you do is reduce this to idiotic childishness.

Loch · 07-21-2010, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by will76

seriously, fuck you and your "i am better than everyone" attitude because you spend this or that. Bottom line is everyone knows what you are doing here and no on agrees with you.

Actually maybe 10-15 people have posted against Farrels business decission.
Have a look at who that is....Then have a look at "who is not posting against it".

PS: i do believe the post you were just referring to was a joke as im sure he is sick of answering people that have no real questions.
or the same questions

Profits of Doom · 07-21-2010, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half man, Half Amazing

Far-L:

How is it possible that the day that ExtremeTube.com opened there were already thousands of vids on there? Thousands of copyrighted un-licensed vids just magically appeared before the site was even open to the public?

You should have read my Connecting the Dots article where I showed that the VERY FIRST member to be signed up to PornHub had uploaded a few 100 videos and made comments on other people's profile representing himself as an admin for the site. That not good enough proof to you? After I pointed out all these shady things, Brazzers...errr Pornhub quickly went and changed their tube site. All the while they were denying they owned these sites...if they were so legit then why were they trying to deceive people?

Ok, how about this...Brazzers running a tube site WITHIN their members area of Brazzers.com so you as a copyright holder would have no idea your content was being stolen unless you yourself became a member of Brazzers. This also gave them a nice way of adding value to their memberships..."why sign up for Homegrown...by being a member of Brazzers you can upload all the Homegrown content you want just keep it on the downlow"

You're doing business with the biggest copyright infringers our industry has ever known. You're judged by the company you keep. Go ahead and make your money with them, just know that they're making 10 times that by using your stolen content. Content with the table scraps? Your choice.

I remember the thread where ExtremeTube.com was outed on here. At the time they were still under construction and they had no traffic whatsoever, but they had pages and pages of uploaded, stolen content. Personally I couldn't give a shit who someone does business with, but get the fuck out of here with the "it hasn't been proven they steal the content and upload it themselves" bullshit. It has been proven, and it was proven right on this very forum.

I had a tube site with a shitload more traffic than ExtremeTube.com had when it was revealed on here, and when I opened up user submissions the vast majority of videos uploaded were the heavily watermarked "spam videos" that are prevalent on xvideos.com. So Brazzers can't tell when a video from a popular website is uploaded, but by their own admission on here they reject videos that are watermarked with anything if you don't have a partner account? Really? Get the fuck out of here...

Tickler · 07-21-2010, 08:42 PM

Leaving the porn tubes aside for the moment.

Quote:

"In a July 19, 2005 e-mail to YouTube co-founders Chad Hurley and Jawed Karim, YouTube co-founder Steve Chen wrote: 'jawed, please stop putting stolen videos on the site. We?re going to have a tough time defending the fact that we?re not liable for the copyrighted material on the site because we didn?t put it up when one of the co-founders is blatantly stealing content from other sites and trying to get everyone to see it.'"

Quote:

"Chen twice wrote that 80 percent of user traffic depended on pirated videos. He opposed removing infringing videos on the ground that 'if you remove the potential copyright infringements... site traffic and virality will drop to maybe 20 percent of what it is.' Karim proposed they 'just remove the obviously copyright infringing stuff.' But Chen again insisted that even if they removed only such obviously infringing clips, site traffic would drop at least 80 percent. ('if [we] remove all that content[,] we go from 100,000 views a day down to about 20,000 views or maybe even lower')."

Quote:

"In response to YouTube co-founder Chad Hurley?s August 9, 2005 e-mail, YouTube co-founder Steve Chen stated: 'but we should just keep that stuff on the site. I really don?t see what will happen. what? someone from cnn sees it? he happens to be someone with power? he happens to want to take it down right away. he get in touch with cnn legal. 2 weeks later, we get a cease & desist letter. we take the video down.'"

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/n...om-filings.ars

Does make one wonder about the porn tubes though.

will76 · 07-21-2010, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Far-L

Cut me a break. The only reason you feel threatened by me saying to prove you put your money where your mouth is because you actually haven't done anything other than bitch about stuff and you haven't actually done much to really do anything about this at all other than preach to the choir.

I have already answered your question - I said I don't know and I don't believe your version of events based on hearsay and I showed you the Bing example to give one potential example of how to start with content.

Now, calm down and try to remain professional. Just because I disagree with you is no need to get so piqued. If you stick to the topic maybe people will actually learn something - whether you or I are right or wrong. Reduce it to name calling and swearing and all you do is reduce this to idiotic childishness.

I'll take the appearance of being a hot head over your "better than everyone" else attitude any day.

You say I haven't done anything. Well doing nothing is better than doing business with the people who are the problem, which is what you are doing.

I'm always calm

i know my typing comes across as someone who is screaming at the screen and banging on the keyboard, but i'm probably one of the coolest non emotional people you would meet.

bdjerk · 07-21-2010, 10:29 PM

what a fuckin trainwreck

AsianDivaGirlsWebDude · 07-21-2010, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AsianDivaGirlsWebDude

As much as I appreciate your kind offer Nathan/Fabian, I do not wish to in any way appear to be perceived as being bought off with an expenses-paid trip to the AVN show. I assure you that I can easily afford to travel there on my own funds, if I so wish to.

How about instead, you respond here forthrightly, and 100% honestly, in public, to some questions which I and others have posed, such as:

1) Who are your partners/investors in Manwin?

2) What is your plan (besides hiding behind the ridiculous provisions of the DMCA safe harbor provisions, which hopefully will be changed soon) for ensuring that your Manwin company, and known/suspected associates/entities/properties (such as Brazzers, JuggCash, KeezMovies, PornHub, Xtube, ExtremeTube, Tube8, MovieBox, Sex In Your City, etc), quit screwing over the rest of the industry by seemingly engaging in allowing obvious non-copyright holders/employees to post long scenes (or any scenes for that matter) of videos which they have no copyright to on any of your sites?

3) What role, if any, do Stephane Manos (Man) or hahahahahahaha (oops, forgot, for some reason O-u-i-s-s-a-m, without hyphens, appears as hahahahahahaha on GFY) Youseff (Sef) play in Manwin's current operations?

4) Does Virage Media Limited still exist? If not, when did it cease to exist, and why? Are the former Virage Media Ltd properties now part of Manwin?

5) When did Manwin come into existence, and who are the partners/investors?

6) When did Manwin acquire Mansef? In March or July, or whatever date?

7) Is Bob Rice still a part of your Manwin operation? If not, when did he leave?

8) What business relationship/association(s) have you, or any companies associated with you, (such as Virage Media or HQtube and Xtube) had with Envisionext/Stan Fiskin?

9) What business relationship, if any, do you have with Jain Shaileshkumar (aka Sam Jain) or Bjorn Daniel Sundin (aka Daniel)? Some people here seem to think there is a money connection somehow.

10) Would you consider contributing some of Manwin's profits to an industry-wide anti-copyright/anti-piracy effort?

I have other straightforward questions, but I will save them for now. If you can straightforwardly answer the questions above, I will refrain from posing any additional questions, since I do not wish to cause you or your family any personal embarrassment, nor possible legal issues.

I assure you that I am not attempting in any way to destroy you or your reputation, as you maudlinly claim (I suspect, in some way to gain sympathy/pity).

I'm simply asking questions which I perceive that you have repeatedly ducked, dodged, and otherwise parried from.

None of the information I have posted is personal (even if you or anyone else chooses to take it personally).

Most, if not all, of the info I have posted about, came from easily accessible public sources on the internet, such as LinkedIn, and Google searches of your name, your nicks, and your various company names, plus names of people associated (or said to possibly be associated) with you.

I assure you that I have not hacked into anything that is private or otherwise secure information. That is outside of my nature/proclivity, and skill-set.

If you wish to be perceived as a respectable member of the adult industry (and I know many already do respect you for some of your past achievements - some of which I respect as well), by answering forthrightly, the simple questions which I have posed here, and prove yourself to sincerely and aggressively stand against content/copyright piracy (not just for your own content, but for the entire industry), then you may be surprised to find a strong ally in me.

Respectfully yours,

ADG

Quote:

Originally Posted by AsianDivaGirlsWebDude

It should be around 8am in Deutschland now. Rise and shine Mr. Manwin Managing Partner (is every partner at Manwin as "silent" as you are? Pardon the pun).

You are not doing much of a job representing your company when you go on a forum and ask people to trust you, but then refuse to respond to simple questions posed to you.

You indicated the obvious, that given their legal problems and perceptions within the adult industry, Mansef/Manwin needs to make changes and improve it's image within the industry, and change it's practices (one of which was lying).

I'm giving you an opportunity right here to do that...

Your forthright answers to the ten questions posed above would be greatly appreciated...

ADG

It's been over 24 hours since my last post in this thread, and Nathan / Fabian Thylmann has cowardly continued to duck my questions posted above.

His silence speaks volumes.

I guess he is too busy licking boots (and trying to cover his tracks):

Too bad for Nathan / Fabian Thylmann, and his Manwin shadow biz, that he and his company/co-conspirators (the subjects of a US Federal and Civil Lawsuit for copyright violations), are already in the targets of the US DOJ/Canadian authorities/Interpol, that it's unlikely he will be able to worm his way out of this one, regardless of how much he bootlicks...

ADG

AsianDivaGirlsWebDude · 07-22-2010, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProG

Fabian were you involved with PornGraph? Just curious...

What is/was PornGraph, and what could it possibly have to do with Nathan / Fabian Thylmann?

ADG

will76 · 07-22-2010, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AsianDivaGirlsWebDude

What is/was PornGraph, and what could it possibly have to do with Nathan / Fabian Thylmann?

ADG

Fabian started with Nats right? Then I think the next question was, what was John's involvement with Porngraph? I don't remember the details posted here but there was a lot of accusations and speculation with porngraph and john.

I can't talk about John though, if I do he will run to the mods to try to get me banned.

Do your digging young jedi, you might find some good dirt on both of them.

Here is a good start for you http://www.gfy.com/showthread.php?t=275929

07-20-2010, 04:19 PM	#451
JFK FUBAR the ORIGINATOR Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: FUBARLAND Posts: 67,382	Four Fitty acquisitions __________________ FUBAR Webmasters - The FUBAR Times - FUBAR Webmasters Mobile - FUBARTV.XXX For promo opps contact jfk at fubarwebmasters dot com

07-20-2010, 05:17 PM	#456
Far-L Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 6,075	Nice try to introduce metaphysics into the debate but I suggest you go back and read Plato, Aristotle, and Socrates - you will certainly want to ruminate on the allegory of the cave some more. I am not in this debate to win a popularity contest - which you so often seem to be doing when you champion whatever cause of the week you think will make you look important and purposeful. I am just speaking from a different point of view, and an experience that is not consistent with what others are claiming. The fact that I know it is unpopular but I am still willing to present my experience and suffer the consequences regardless speaks to my character, regardless what you think or assume or accuse without merit or proof. __________________ HomegrownCash.com, the affiliate program of Homegrown Video - The Largest Collection of Amateur XXX - Est. 1982. Contact - Email: farrell AT homegrownvideo D com Skype: hgfarl Newsweek Magazine - "Homegrown Video, the longest running series in the history of porn."

07-20-2010, 06:10 PM	#458
bdjerk Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 219	this is good for another 5 pages at least. __________________ bdjerk inc.

07-20-2010, 11:32 PM	#463
DateDoc Outside looking in. Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: To Hell You Ride Posts: 14,243	Maybe you guys are having some affect. Tube8 only has two new movies in the last 20 hours! __________________

07-21-2010, 01:08 AM	#467
Brujah Beer Money Baron Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: brujah / gmail Posts: 22,157	Someone should save all these pages. I predict this thread disappears before end of month. __________________ Free Premium Domain Lists and Tools at Clickmojo.com For Sale: Obscenity.com

07-20-2010, 11:32 PM	#462
Socks Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2002 Location: Toronto Posts: 8,478	The thing that doesn't make sense to me about this whole scenario is this: Whatever the price for Brazzers was, it was a lot. People have said $140m, dunno where that came from, and Nathn has disputed that number if I remember right. Nobody spends that much money by themselves, it's just too much risk. So like banks, they use risk management. They would pool a team of people together to create a fund for such a thing. Then again, I don't really care who owns it, or how many partners there are, etc. But that strikes me as odd. Who gambles with that much money, without at least spreading the risk around?

07-21-2010, 10:47 AM	#470
Far-L Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 6,075	Good morning haters. Here is the rundown... First, we could've sold you guys out and made out like bandits on the Acacia deal. If you don't believe me, then talk to some of those that did settle with them and ask what terms they were offered. Next, I cannot talk specifically about our CE case but suffice to say many people thought we were kicking a gift horse in the mouth when we went into arbitration with them. I am not going to name names for the others we won't do biz with but most of them are well known, highly respected, buyers of drinks at shows. I don't need to add to the drama by indulging your curiousity for our blacklist. Seriously, the moment PV or anyone else brings a case and proves that they have stolen content then I will apologize to everyone, but in the meantime, my dealings with the company are not consistent with what others claim. Why should I believe anyone else's hearsay over my own experience? Seriously? Do you expect me to run a business based on what other people are saying and doing? I don't know you. I don't trust you. I am not about to jump on the "We hate tubes" bandwagon just because you did or did not. You are welcome to disapprove, and to think we are desperate. On that point we can discuss it again in a year or so and see who is still in business. __________________ HomegrownCash.com, the affiliate program of Homegrown Video - The Largest Collection of Amateur XXX - Est. 1982. Contact - Email: farrell AT homegrownvideo D com Skype: hgfarl Newsweek Magazine - "Homegrown Video, the longest running series in the history of porn."

07-21-2010, 11:45 AM	#473
Ad-Min Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 655	Just a stupid question but what "if" they really have sold Mansef. How quick would you turn down the whole stolen content? I mean,they have a million vids on their tubes,millions of users which submit new movies every minute. How quick would you be able to take down all the stolen content (with original description and alternative description)?? I am just wondering,i have not read the whole thread but "if" they have bought it you should give them time. If i would buy such a network i wouldn´t be able to do it and of course i wouldn´t take down the sites to make sure everything is fine,this does not make sense. But hey,it´s not my business.

07-21-2010, 12:58 PM	#476
Far-L Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 6,075	Wow... so looks like Microsoft is a bigger thief than Brazzers! Just go to Bing, search videos, and put in a term like "porn". Who uploaded all that freaking content without permission? Somebody have Bill Gates contact info? __________________ HomegrownCash.com, the affiliate program of Homegrown Video - The Largest Collection of Amateur XXX - Est. 1982. Contact - Email: farrell AT homegrownvideo D com Skype: hgfarl Newsweek Magazine - "Homegrown Video, the longest running series in the history of porn."

07-21-2010, 01:10 PM	#477
ProG Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 1,319	Fabian were you involved with PornGraph? Just curious... __________________ History will be kind to me for I intend to write it.

07-21-2010, 01:47 PM	#479
Half man, Half Amazing Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Capital Wasteland, DC Posts: 372	Far-L: How is it possible that the day that ExtremeTube.com opened there were already thousands of vids on there? Thousands of copyrighted un-licensed vids just magically appeared before the site was even open to the public? You should have read my Connecting the Dots article where I showed that the VERY FIRST member to be signed up to PornHub had uploaded a few 100 videos and made comments on other people's profile representing himself as an admin for the site. That not good enough proof to you? After I pointed out all these shady things, Brazzers...errr Pornhub quickly went and changed their tube site. All the while they were denying they owned these sites...if they were so legit then why were they trying to deceive people? Ok, how about this...Brazzers running a tube site WITHIN their members area of Brazzers.com so you as a copyright holder would have no idea your content was being stolen unless you yourself became a member of Brazzers. This also gave them a nice way of adding value to their memberships..."why sign up for Homegrown...by being a member of Brazzers you can upload all the Homegrown content you want just keep it on the downlow" You're doing business with the biggest copyright infringers our industry has ever known. You're judged by the company you keep. Go ahead and make your money with them, just know that they're making 10 times that by using your stolen content. Content with the table scraps? Your choice.

07-21-2010, 02:31 PM	#484
Half man, Half Amazing Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Capital Wasteland, DC Posts: 372	So Far-L, would you do business with The Pirate Bay? After all, there's no proof anyone working there uploaded a single torrent file. And they aren't required to comply with DMCA laws since it's a US law. So by the rationale you've laid out to us, there should be nothing stopping you from seeing any problem with the ethics of The Pirate Bay. Here's the thing man, you're entitled to do business with whomever you want. We can criticize you for it, but at the end of the day it's your decision to make as a business owner. Where I think you really insulted the intelligence of a lot of people is when you started down the path of "show me evidence" that Brazzers has ever done anything wrong. You're taking pages out of the Jules Denial Jordan playbook there. Stick to your guns on your decision to do business with them, but don't come in here defending Brazzers like they're squeaky clean.

07-21-2010, 03:35 PM	#488
erooup Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 512	Who said "don't answer the question you were asked, but they question you wish they have asked"? McNamara mentioned it in "The Fog of War", but I forgot the original source.

07-21-2010, 10:29 PM	#497
bdjerk Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 219	what a fuckin trainwreck __________________ bdjerk inc.