Originally Posted by Paul Markham

Spam costs the US little.

Originally Posted by PR_Glen

shutting down torrent sites is not censorship

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

There's no middle ground with counterfeiting.

Originally Posted by DVTimes

US shuts down file-sharing sites

Originally Posted by Odin

The points you make are accurate. But obviously it is a lot more complex then that. It is a matter of what laws and Government actions are most appropriate. The argument isn't whether the Government has a role, it is a matter of what role we trust them with. Additionally, as much as the US would like to think it controls the internet it doesn't and cannot effectively - that is a fact. Even if they control the root servers, if they start seizing country codes TLD's, etc you can believe that alternative DNS systems will rise immediately.

In any event seizing domains at the moment will prove ineffective past the few headlines it gains at the moment, people will operate from IPs or from the many alternate TLDs the US doesn't have direct control over, in addition to the never ending whack a mole. Not saying it is completely useless, but it will not be effective.

The most effective strategy would be blocking sites at an ISP level in the US (given the size of the market), but even then it will eventually be circumvented on such a scale that it won't even matter, if someone is willing to download utorrent to get their favorite movies, you think they won't download the inevitable circumvention software? That said it will have some effect.

At the end of both these policies though we will be left with laws that leave a dangerous precedent - especially for adult. Domains will be seized regularly in the future for anyone accused of obscenity, or other such matters, and sites will be filtered. This will become normal practice. When they pushed to introduce a child porn ISP filter in Australia, by the time it was about to come to fruition the filtered content included regular porn websites which were viewed as obscene, euthanasia websites, drug advocation websites (include for weed), etc. The US does have constitutional protections in place, but as every adult webmaster is aware the legality of porn, and certain types of porn, is still very much in question in the US.

In reality content owners have to be prepared for a long battle, and it will take international treaties such as ACTA, or the US giving up control of ICANN to an international body that represents all WTO nations, that has a process similar to the UDRP for dealing with infringement, to make any real difference given the nature of the internet. Everything in the mean time will have limited success. Unfortunately it takes years to negotiate such treaties. But 10-20+ years of rampant infringement is a small amount of time in the grand scheme of things given the revolutionary and global nature of the internet. In the mean time have patience and remain vigilant against *bad law past the short term "benefits".

Originally Posted by cyberxxx

I don't thing so.

http://rapidshare.com/ - still up and running
http://depositfiles.com/ - still up and running
http://megaupload.com/ - still up and running
http://hotfile.com/ - still up and running
http://oron.com/ - still up and running

No one was shot down. Those 70 domains that were "seized" are something I even didn't know about. The REAL FUCKING EVIL is still online and laughing on so-called "Homeland Security" (there is something Nazi in this name, don't you have the same feeling?)

Originally Posted by DamianJ

Nor is there with censorship. You either have freedom of speech, or you don't.

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

So you think there should be no censorship.

In exactly what areas?

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

So you think there should be no censorship.

In exactly what areas?

Originally Posted by Robbie

I think courts decided many many years ago that counterfeiting, copyright infringement, and stealing were all illegal.

By your logic...the police would just stand by and watch people rob a bank because the court hasn't sentenced them yet. But that's not the way it works. You STOP them from stealing.

Originally Posted by DamianJ

It's black or white Paul. You have censorship or you don't.

I don't think that you should have censorship. And if that means things that you seem to think are disgusting like BDSM and scat have websites, then sobeit.

I realise this means websites *I* think are horrible will have to exist.

But as the VERY SIMPLE option is allow everything, or let the government censor the internet, I vote for allow everything.As a pornographer, it astounds me you trust any government not to block access to your work. But OK. We have different opinions and are unlikely to alter each other's opinion, are we?

Originally Posted by HomerSimpson

I'll add some more:
piratebay.org - up and running
torrentz.com - up and running
...
spamfreexxx.com - up and running
...
illegal tubes - up and running...

Originally Posted by DamianJ

THE INTERNET DOES NOT LIVE IN A COUNTRY.

Originally Posted by PornMD

Wrong. A website lives in:

- The country it is hosted
- The country the registrar is based out of
- The country the registry is based out of (this is not as important YET but keep in mind all domain registrations of an extension are ultimately OWNED by the registry...the registrar and registrant are both simply leasing it)

AND...its visitors live in the countries they live in and go through an ISP which is based out of the country it's based out of...so ultimately what, 5 steps from visitor to site where a country's laws can come into play?

If one of those countries happens to be the US and that website happens to be doing something that's illegal in the US, they are going to stop it. Easy fix, don't host in the US, or register the domain in a US-based registrar, and for extra protection, register it in an extension owned by an offshore company or controlled by a country that simply doesn't give a shit. And even at that, the US government could still possibly do something to have the site blocked to US visitors.

But hey, forget it...let's just give everything away for free to everyone. Then lets watch companies crumble 1 by 1 until entire industries crumble, and all you'll have left is old deteriorating shit which will eventually stop working, and we'll be telling our kids/grandchildren how easy life used to be.

Originally Posted by Argos88

So, what 70 sites did they take down? HUH?

Originally Posted by Cyber Fucker

I think that courts should decide if a site should be shut down or not. I approve an action against piracy but I don't like the idea that US government will be the Internet keeper.

Originally Posted by DirtyWhiteBoy

It makes total sense.

But here is a better idea.... lets just do away with all laws because some people think they are a waste of time. Drunk drivers would love to do away with drinking and driving laws, total waste of time according to them. Rapist would LOVE to not have consequences. It would kick ass if I could buy machine guns at the local market. I think gun laws are stupid. Hell, lets all sell porn with 15 year old girls, fuck it, why wait until they are 18? If there is grass on the field, play ball, right? No laws!!!! It will be GREAT!

We need laws and they need to be enforced. That simple.

Originally Posted by Agent 488

as stated in the ice press release one of the goals of stopping counterfeit goods is to protect tax income. you are seeing these moves because western governments are broke as fuck.

Originally Posted by Kiopa_Matt

Ok, but give me a down-to-earth, real-world example of how enforcing this law, at this current moment in history, is going to help the US as a whole or any individual American citizen (other then the executives as Nike, Calvin Klein, etc.)? It's not, and if anything, it's going to damage your country even more so.

You could make the argument that the less fake Nike's on the market = more sales for Nike = more new jobs from Nike. That doesn't add up though, especially considering the vast majority of this merchandise is manufactured in China and elsewhere. I guess they may create some extra sales positions, but for every position they create, they're probably wiping out the livelihoods of 25 people who are scratching by to make a living selling $5 Nikes at China Town's throughout the US.

Given the current conditions, I don't see how it's reasonable to be investing government resources into something like this. More than likely, the only reason it's happening is because guys like Nike and Calvin Klein are feeling the pinch of the recession, so decided to send some money to a few select officials, which got the ball rolling for them.

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

WOW!!!!

Nike makes a profit and pays taxes on that profit. They employ people in the US as well. OK production is outside the US. Your argument is let's ship everything outside the US.

It's not just Nike that's being pirated. It's movies, music, programs, gaming, porn and designer goods. Are you saying the US should do nothing to stop the out flow of money?

It's a Government's job to protect industry and finances. Stopping piracy is one of it's job.

Originally Posted by ottopottomouse

The out flow of money is already there with goods produced abroad imported into the US for the end user. With a lot of the counterfeit goods it's hard to tell whether counterfeit means copies or just the factory making 2x as much as is ordered and then selling identical goods through different distributors. In the same way porn has been given away for free to the point where it is hard to sell, the going round the world hunting for the cheapest place to produce stuff builds brand new factories in places like China and loses skills locally giving China a long term advantage to the point where they will eventually be making and selling everything and controlling the market.

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

WOW!!!!

Nike makes a profit and pays taxes on that profit. They employ people in the US as well. OK production is outside the US. Your argument is let's ship everything outside the US.

It's not just Nike that's being pirated. It's movies, music, programs, gaming, porn and designer goods. Are you saying the US should do nothing to stop the out flow of money?

It's a Government's job to protect industry and finances. Stopping piracy is one of it's job.

Originally Posted by Kiopa_Matt

First, I'm talking specifically about physical goods, not digital goods. Two totally different things that require different realms of thinking.

Anyway, we could go round-and-round with this argument for months, so it's pretty futile. For example, the notion is the more money Nike brings in, the more tax they pay, but they just as easily write it off as an expense as they build another factory in China, for example. How is that going to help the US, or the average American?

Take the 500 guys who got put of of business for selling counterfeit Nike shoes at their local China town's though. These guys actually do spend their money within the US to pay bills and buy things for their family, which eventually turns into income tax for the government, plus generates jobs, plus increases the middle class. Wipe them out, you're hurting more than helping.

It's just two different philosophies, we obviously think differently, and again, this could turn into a never ending round-and-round discussion.