Shaving accusation - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

CurrentlySober · 12-05-2010, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

That wouldn't make it quite as spicy now would it?

Actually, thats the complete opposite of my intention when I made this thread.

UIf I had a sig or an agenda and wanted views, I would have said CLIPS 4 SALE in the title. But I didn't, because I didn't want to appear to be accusing them myself.

I simply wanted to pass on what I had seen, to those interested.

JFK · 12-05-2010, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CurrentlySober

Actually, thats the complete opposite of my intention when I made this thread.

UIf I had a sig or an agenda and wanted views, I would have said CLIPS 4 SALE in the title. But I didn't, because I didn't want to appear to be accusing them myself.

I simply wanted to pass on what I had seen, to those interested.

looks as if its been passed on

Agent 488 · 12-05-2010, 03:16 PM

thread forwarded to ice, homeland security, bbb, interpol and cnn.

VGeorgie · 12-05-2010, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaDalton

not sure if it's that easy, at least in my case the security script and my own DB would not let this happen

It didn't happen and she's stretching the original story. A guy posted here that he had a discrepancy in his htaccess file. It turned out that the file contained expired customers that hadn't been weeded out , due to a well-known CCBill issue, plus a misunderstanding by this guy regarding reservation numbers in his ccbill log file.

I run a tight ship and regularly do compares against the email subscription notifications, the htaccess file, and the login database. Not once has there been a case where a customer was granted access by CCBill that I didn't have a record for (and was paid for). It's not that I don't trust CCBill, it's how I conduct all my business.

CCBill will also allow up to six days for a customer whose card has failed to rebill before they are removed from the htaccess file. They're given the extra time to submit updated credit card info. Any webmaster who doesn't know this might think CCBill is trying to cheat them. You can have it turned off if you don't want it, but the point is there's a difference between being shaved and being ignorant of how things work. Some people just want to be in the dark and complain they can't see anything.

Forest · 12-05-2010, 06:24 PM

shaving in the adult industry??????????????????

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Argos88 · 12-05-2010, 09:59 PM

never liked this clips 4 sale site.. they really suck...

the only guy that likes them is this BARE FOOT sucker spammer..

nobody else.

.

Zyber · 12-05-2010, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by signupdamnit

Just to back up my statement here is a very old one which is focused on click shaving (when PPC was more common). Most have undoubtedly already seen this one.

"Detecting Hit Shaving in Click-Through Payment Schemes"
http://www.usenix.org/event/ec98/ful...ter/reiter.pdf

Thanks. Just had a quick look at it.

This system relies on Javascript being run on the user's browser. It trusts that the browser's DOM events are untampered. It might detect manual click fraud from real humans.

The system does not seem to take into account that hitbots exists, which could emulate all of the HTTP traffic.

GonZo · 12-06-2010, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forest

shaving in the adult industry??????????????????

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I remember you making a marketing statement years ago about a cascading billing system that bragged about the feature where you could turn shave on or shave off... if memory serves me correctly.

Tempest · 12-06-2010, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

There is something to be said for actually knowing the owner (Neil) for the better part of a decade. Not just spit balling accusations around, and feeding the flames, based on some unknown stranger on the message board giving half the story.

You mean like all the people that knew Bernard Madoff for many, many years and thought he was a great guy etc. etc. etc. etc... Fact is, if you're not looking at the books, then you have no idea what's really going on and just how "standup" a guy is.

Machete_ · 12-06-2010, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rayadp05

I have personally known Neil for 5 years now. I have been over at his house on multiple occasions and he has always been a real nice and trustworthy type of guy.

Trustworthy in what way? Did he buy you a beer? Gave you a handjob?

If so, then yes - he's 100% top notch.

xenigo · 12-06-2010, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tempest

You mean like all the people that knew Bernard Madoff for many, many years and thought he was a great guy etc. etc. etc. etc... Fact is, if you're not looking at the books, then you have no idea what's really going on and just how "standup" a guy is.

Exactly.

fuzebox · 12-06-2010, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argos88

never liked this clips 4 sale site.. they really suck...

the only guy that likes them is this BARE FOOT sucker spammer..

nobody else.

.

I'm a fan of C4S. We get a nice wire from them every period, and it's only gone up and up over the last few years

roly · 12-06-2010, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

"Shaving" is something done by shady companies, or those on their way out of business. Not companies who are making money hand over fist like Clips4Sale.

Sounds like some piss ant with an axe to grind against C4S. Probably for getting their store cut off for not having licensed content or some variant.

so naive

signupdamnit · 12-06-2010, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zyber

Thanks. Just had a quick look at it.

This system relies on Javascript being run on the user's browser. It trusts that the browser's DOM events are untampered. It might detect manual click fraud from real humans.

The system does not seem to take into account that hitbots exists, which could emulate all of the HTTP traffic.

Yes it's old and was only meant as an example to show that some people have researched these things. Actually if you want to detect any type of shaving looking for hit shaving can be a good start because unless you also shave hits the results of sale shaving will usually show in the ratios. It's also one of the easiest things to test. Even complex dynamic hit shaving mechanisms (shaving a percentage of growth) could be uncovered by throwing out a controlled number of clicks over time in various patterns to see what the sponsor registers in different cases.

Fletch XXX · 12-06-2010, 08:15 AM

i hate shaving but gotta do it.

Forest · 12-06-2010, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonZo

I remember you making a marketing statement years ago about a cascading billing system that bragged about the feature where you could turn shave on or shave off... if memory serves me correctly.

i didnt make the statement. i made the mistake of marketing it for them without looking deep enough into the platform. YES it had a built in shaver and someone found it and posted it.

woj · 12-06-2010, 08:33 AM

That shaving "algorithm" he described sounds like bs... it makes 100 times more sense to shave 10% or 20%, etc instead of some awkward 1-9 "skip" system...

ShellyCrash · 12-06-2010, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woj

That shaving "algorithm" he described sounds like bs... it makes 100 times more sense to shave 10% or 20%, etc instead of some awkward 1-9 "skip" system...

Maybe I read it wrong but it sounded like the alleged script didn't count every 10th sale, making it an auto 10% shave.

edit- I read it wrong. the way it's built (is it exists) allows for up to a 50% shave. Goddamn.

woj · 12-06-2010, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShellyCrash

Maybe I read it wrong but it sounded like the alleged script didn't count every 10th sale, making it an auto 10% shave.

edit- I read it wrong. the way it's built (is it exists) allows for up to a 50% shave. Goddamn.

"[if] your 'skip sale' number was set at 1 which means for every 2 sales 1 sale would show up in your account and so on."

it sounds like 1 = 50% shave
2=66% shave
3=75% shave, etc

sounds like 50% is the lowest shave possible, unless the system allows fractions, like shave=0.5, but that's quite awkward I think, it makes way more sense to just do 10% shave or whatever...

signupdamnit · 12-06-2010, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woj

That shaving "algorithm" he described sounds like bs... it makes 100 times more sense to shave 10% or 20%, etc instead of some awkward 1-9 "skip" system...

Seemed awkward to me as well. In fact I don't quite get how the examples he gave relate to each other. But depending on how it's implemented there could be advantages to theapproach.

I'll say this, if this whole thing is true including this part then someone either has brass balls or is a fool:

Quote:

Here is what this guy does.. He brings in programmers to write small code, then fires them and bring in other programmers to put the code together for him.

You don't mess around with your coders. Especially not if you're asking them to write in a shave function.

signupdamnit · 12-06-2010, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woj

"[if] your 'skip sale' number was set at 1 which means for every 2 sales 1 sale would show up in your account and so on."

it sounds like 1 = 50% shave
2=66% shave
3=75% shave, etc

sounds like 50% is the lowest shave possible, unless the system allows fractions, like shave=0.5, but that's quite awkward I think, it makes way more sense to just do 10% shave or whatever...

He needs to give more examples to be sure about how it works but I think he did say '0' was 0% shave (actual sales).

Quote:

edit- I read it wrong. the way it's built (is it exists) allows for up to a 50% shave. Goddamn.

Don't forget:

"to say a 9 (9) meaning that there would be 9 sales and it would show up as 1 in your account. "

..So that appears to be near a 90% shave if I interpret it correctly.

edit: Actually I'm wondering if he explained it wrong and intended the "skip sale" number to be a simple "shave percentage" (0=0% shave, 1=10%shave ... 9=90% shave) ? No, that would be weird for a coder to mess that up? Hmmm. Don't know...

ShellyCrash · 12-06-2010, 09:19 AM

Woj and signupdamnit, you guys are right.

It doesn't make alot of sense to shave at 90%. I mean, short term of course it does, but long term the program's conversion would be so awful that the program would lose the traffic.

kazbalah · 12-06-2010, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tjeezers

Than there is something called " Greed "
When a company is on its way out caused by a economical crisis, it is not by definition impossible they handle the same strategy like the bigger companies did to survive, car companies, banks, phones, etc, they cut back. And you can call it shaving or cutting, but when shit hits the van, and your boat is overloaded, first thing you throw away are those things you can buy new again somewhere else. In this case, your affiliates.... Internet is a very fragile instrument, often under or over estimated, and for sure there are people daily making choices between good and right, and those people are everywhere.

These managers who sell shaving as an " Dump your baggage to safe the boat " strategy do not have to work by definition for shady companies. The word shaving is now replaced by good sounding synonyms that sound acceptable and are sold to us in smoke cloud lines, we should feel better. Lot of sponsors play with their affiliates on that way. I dont border me calling them out here. But they used also strategies this year that actually cut in the pockets of the affiliate, and brings them cash on the long run with a higher result of earnings for them. I mean, I call it shaving, someone else calls is a Cut Back. And some people call it a budget necessary evil.

So your " i`ll draw a line between good and wrong " is just not doing it for me. You cant tell me Shaving is by definition connected to shady companies.

I see what your saying here.

There is only one problem with your idea here.

When you join as an affiliate - you sign an agreement.

The agreement is something along the lines of - You make 1 sale, and we will pay you 25$ - Or whatever the deal is.

Then the program owner "Shaves" or "Cuts back" as you put it.

So you send in a 1 sale, and its "Shaved" And your not paid for it.

That is not a business tactic, its called fraud.

signupdamnit · 12-06-2010, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShellyCrash

Woj and signupdamnit, you guys are right.

It doesn't make alot of sense to shave at 90%. I mean, short term of course it does, but long term the program's conversion would be so awful that the program would lose the traffic.

Doesn't make sense to shave at all. Though it's tough to prove it's not hard to reasonably detect. If someone shaves me at 1% now how do I know they won't increase that to 50% when times get tough for them. Honesty is the best policy.

ShellyCrash · 12-06-2010, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by signupdamnit

Doesn't make sense to shave at all. Though it's tough to prove it's not hard to reasonably detect. If someone shaves me at 1% now how do I know they won't increase that to 50% when times get tough for them. Honesty is the best policy.

I agree. Personally I think a sponsor should want to go above and beyond to credit an affiliate with every sale they produce- not only because it's the "right" thing to do, but also because one would think it would ensure a stronger, longer and mutually beneficial business relationship.

Really, there should be no reason for a program to shave. If they are pricing themselves out with an unreasonable CPA then that's the fault of the program, not the webmaster.

GonZo · 12-06-2010, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forest

i didnt make the statement. i made the mistake of marketing it for them without looking deep enough into the platform. YES it had a built in shaver and someone found it and posted it.

Im getting old. I just remember you caught up in the shit storm when it happened.

Is it safe to say you were taught a lesson?

Wizzo · 12-06-2010, 10:53 AM

Luke is Back always a trustworthy source...haha

TurboAngel · 12-06-2010, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forest

shaving in the adult industry??????????????????

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

SwirlsGirl · 12-06-2010, 04:22 PM

Once I saw my top selling clip orders shuffle 10 times within 48 hours with zero sales coming in, I called support line twice, got promised a return call and remedy within 24 hours, call never came. No support email, no nothing.

For the time the clips4sale rep was on the phone he stated that nobody's top selling clip order should be rotating or shuffling with no sales coming in....PERIOD

The clips4sales sales emails stopped coming in years ago. Sometimes I log in and see a sale or two in the admin.

Then you come on GFY and see a BOLDER than bold claim about someone accepting payment to write shave/skim code....

I mean you know its not the type of discussion that people just conjure up on a whim...

To me it makes total sense the way the sales evaporated into nothing, even with fresh niche specific content, even with extra targeted traffic to clip store, the sales fizzled out into oblivion.

The story alone should infuriate anyone who has put effort into their clip store, and quite frankly our trade organization should be taking a deeper look wouldn't you think??

12-06-2010, 08:15 AM	#65
Fletch XXX GFY HALL OF FAME DAMMIT!!! Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: that 504 Posts: 60,840	i hate shaving but gotta do it. __________________ Want an Android App for your tube, membership, or free site? Need banners or promo material? Hit us up (ICQ Fletch: 148841377) or email me fletchxxx at gmail.com - recent work - About me

12-06-2010, 08:33 AM	#67
woj <&(©¿©)&> Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 47,882	That shaving "algorithm" he described sounds like bs... it makes 100 times more sense to shave 10% or 20%, etc instead of some awkward 1-9 "skip" system... __________________ Custom Software Development, email: woj#at#wojfun#.#com to discuss details or skype: wojl2000 or gchat: wojfun or telegram: wojl2000 Affiliate program tools: Hosted Galleries Manager Banner Manager Video Manager Wordpress Affiliate Plugin Pic/Movie of the Day Fansign Generator Zip Manager

12-06-2010, 09:19 AM	#72
ShellyCrash Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Tampa Bay, FL Posts: 6,708	Woj and signupdamnit, you guys are right. It doesn't make alot of sense to shave at 90%. I mean, short term of course it does, but long term the program's conversion would be so awful that the program would lose the traffic. __________________ Start making money with the hottest hookup site! up to $55 PPS or up to 75% Revshare ICQ 196766477

12-06-2010, 10:53 AM	#77
Wizzo 2011 GFY Hall of Fame! Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Back in Texas! Posts: 15,224	Luke is Back always a trustworthy source...haha __________________ Looking for Opportunity!

12-05-2010, 03:16 PM	#53
Agent 488 Registered User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 22,511	thread forwarded to ice, homeland security, bbb, interpol and cnn.

12-05-2010, 06:24 PM	#55
Forest Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hollywood Fl. Posts: 8,977	shaving in the adult industry?????????????????? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

12-05-2010, 09:59 PM	#56
Argos88 So Fucking Banned Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 1,732	never liked this clips 4 sale site.. they really suck... the only guy that likes them is this BARE FOOT sucker spammer.. nobody else. .

12-06-2010, 04:22 PM	#79
SwirlsGirl So Fucking Banned Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: between east coast and vegas Posts: 2,067	Once I saw my top selling clip orders shuffle 10 times within 48 hours with zero sales coming in, I called support line twice, got promised a return call and remedy within 24 hours, call never came. No support email, no nothing. For the time the clips4sale rep was on the phone he stated that nobody's top selling clip order should be rotating or shuffling with no sales coming in....PERIOD The clips4sales sales emails stopped coming in years ago. Sometimes I log in and see a sale or two in the admin. Then you come on GFY and see a BOLDER than bold claim about someone accepting payment to write shave/skim code.... I mean you know its not the type of discussion that people just conjure up on a whim... To me it makes total sense the way the sales evaporated into nothing, even with fresh niche specific content, even with extra targeted traffic to clip store, the sales fizzled out into oblivion. The story alone should infuriate anyone who has put effort into their clip store, and quite frankly our trade organization should be taking a deeper look wouldn't you think??