Originally Posted by Ruseful

yep, once the crews have shot the content, its the editors that I live/die by. When we need to take on a new editor, we give raw footage to 6 hand picked freelancers, look at the results, choose 2, give more raw footage to them and then make a decision. Its all time consuming but I am proud to say we have some of the best editors in the business.

Originally Posted by Pseudonymous

you can, i said you'd be doing it by hand. Adding each tool by html/css each time you add a new zip,fhg, or whatever. not including any other tools, since most people offer embedded flash and other flash tools becuase those tools are in high demand, you'll need to code something so you can offer flash on your blank html page ;) typically affiliate software does that for you automatically

they have nothign to offer your tools, no

and sure you can cut corners and not offer more than banners or banners and fhgs but for every thing i suggest you should have to make 5k and that you suggest you can cut, well its going to add up and i dont think that program will reach what the OP's monthly income that he had in mind

Most people use ccbtools. or something similar/custom and to get into the cheapest package that includes flash tools, its 150/month.

Originally Posted by Far-L

Why would creating affiliate tools be necessary since apparently CCbill doesn't have an affiliate program?

I seriously think I woke up today in some sort of weird alternate universe today. I never bought into the whole "acid flashback" thing but maybe that is what is happening.

Actually, I know what it is. I just never do well with sophistry and am experiencing a bizarre reaction.

Before we go any further down the rabbit hole on this one, let's remember the original question is can someone be successful, real successful, in today's market. Some say yes, some say no, whatever, take your pick.

My question is to XXaru Media...

What programs were the ones you worked with that failed and why did they fail, in your opinion? What was their budget? What was their business plan? How well did they execute?

Originally Posted by Pseudonymous

Ive found it very difficult to find good editors at a reasonable price. Tried putting ads on here and only got people that use lousy plugins.

What do you guys pay per movie/photoset edited if you dont mind me asking, rough estimate.

Originally Posted by Ruseful

Well... without going into too much detail:

10 editors
9 crew members
2 production managers
1 webmaster
3 developers
2 designers
1 social media manager
1 upload manager
1 DMCA/2257 compliance manager
1 affiliate manager

And myself of course.

You need to understand that we are shooting in excess of 120 full scenes a month for updates to our existing sites and also for the new sites I am launching in my own network. We also shoot and edit content for other companies/sites too.

Its a very simple blueprint I use for the launch of each new site that factors in the site requirements for new staff and the extra burden on existing staff's time. I hire as/when needed.

As for my initial investment to start the company pre revenues, it was $200k. This enabled me to launch 2 sites: orgasms.xxx (sept '11) and casting.xxx (aug '11). We hit the ground running of course, simply because I knew what the tube users wanted. I knew the length the tube clips needed to be, I knew what to tag the clips with, how to title them and how to watermark them. I joined the Content Publishing Programs of the biggest tubes and uploaded. I got no favours and needed none. As stated before, I run my company so its self sufficient. I reinvest my profits into new sites/staff as/when the profits afford me to do this.

Of course, I have a better knowledge than most regarding how to utilise the tube traffic, but even today, I spend around an hour a day looking at all the clips on major tubes. Looking at why some clips were more successful than others, why they had high/low views, high/low ratings, reading all the user comments. Looking for any little micro switch that made a +/- difference. It also has a huge influence on the new sites I launch. No one spoon feeds me this information, but its out there for everyone. For instance, for uptodate most popular search terms on a tube, look at the footer on RedTube, they actually list the most popular search terms on their site. It helps to tag these terms in all of your tube submissions, and also load 1 or 2 into the title. Your clip will show up in more search results.

Want to know what niches do well? If you are looking for an easy answer, click on the most popular list on YouPorn Channels. Reality sites fill 5 of the top 8 (I own 3 of them). Sensual/erotic sites fill the other 3 (I own 2 of them). However, if you have the impetus to look into this further, do what I do, and study the tubes. Seriously, all your answers are out there.

Having said all that, you can't serve a turd to the tube users, it simply wont work, no matter if you have identified what niche they want, how long the clips should be etc. Thats where you need a good crew and the best editors to make sure every tube clip you put out there is the best representation of your brand.

This is just my story and the way I do things, not saying its the right way, but it works for me, (I have just hit 13,000 active members). I'm an approachable guy and will gladly help anyone that cares to reach out.

Originally Posted by Ruseful

We go into mainstream to get our editors, and convert them to adult

My budget right now for shooting/editing 120 scenes a month is around $250k. Sensual/erotic scenes are more than the reality scenes. But this is the cost for the finished product, ready to go with: full scene, tube edited clip (with various versions of watermarks i.e. www.danejones.com/pornhub www.danejones.com/youporn), teaser clip, photo sets etc

Originally Posted by Ruseful

As for my initial investment to start the company pre revenues, it was $200k. This enabled me to launch 2 sites: orgasms.xxx (sept '11) and casting.xxx (aug '11). We hit the ground running of course, simply because I knew what the tube users wanted. I knew the length the tube clips needed to be, I knew what to tag the clips with, how to title them and how to watermark them. I joined the Content Publishing Programs of the biggest tubes and uploaded. I got no favours and needed none. As stated before, I run my company so its self sufficient. I reinvest my profits into new sites/staff as/when the profits afford me to do this.

Of course, I have a better knowledge than most regarding how to utilise the tube traffic, but even today, I spend around an hour a day looking at all the clips on major tubes. Looking at why some clips were more successful than others, why they had high/low views, high/low ratings, reading all the user comments. Looking for any little micro switch that made a +/- difference. It also has a huge influence on the new sites I launch. No one spoon feeds me this information, but its out there for everyone. For instance, for uptodate most popular search terms on a tube, look at the footer on RedTube, they actually list the most popular search terms on their site. It helps to tag these terms in all of your tube submissions, and also load 1 or 2 into the title. Your clip will show up in more search results.

Want to know what niches do well? If you are looking for an easy answer, click on the most popular list on YouPorn Channels. Reality sites fill 5 of the top 8 (I own 3 of them). Sensual/erotic sites fill the other 3 (I own 2 of them). However, if you have the impetus to look into this further, do what I do, and study the tubes. Seriously, all your answers are out there.

Having said all that, you can't serve a turd to the tube users, it simply wont work, no matter if you have identified what niche they want, how long the clips should be etc. Thats where you need a good crew and the best editors to make sure every tube clip you put out there is the best representation of your brand.

This is just my story and the way I do things, not saying its the right way, but it works for me, (I have just hit 13,000 active members). I'm an approachable guy and will gladly help anyone that cares to reach out.

Originally Posted by arock10

I'd say 80% of ccbill sites don't have more then a handful of banners on a static affiliate page. Having all these bells and whistles really isn't required to succeed

Also if you want bells and whistles, nats is $150 a month and they've been having promos with no setup fee lately. So there is your affiliate setup for next to nothing

Originally Posted by Webmaster Advertising

I think we've just discovered the problem in why you are not understanding what we are saying.

If you have a budget of $5000, and your bills come to $2000 before you have even launched, you are under budget by $3000 not in the hole for $7000. But what it does mean is that you wasted $2000 and only have $3000 left to develop the sites, buy content, etc...

Lets look at it as a real world business...

I have $5000 to invest in a small affiliate program, lets say I want to launch with 10 paysites.

I go out and buy the content to use in these sites, a selection of images and DVD titles, lets say I spend $2000 on this content acquisition, because I don't want to blow my funds immediately as i still need to have the sites designed and also get the affiliate stuff setup.

My next step is to purchase the domain names, I am going to pick 11 of them, one for each website and one to use for the affiliate program, total cost, depending on your registrar of choice, between $8 and $15 per domain, lets go on the higher end of that scale for arguments sake, I have just spend $165 on 11 domain names for 1 year each.

I now have $2835 to spend on designs for 10 paysites and an affiliate program design.

Now it comes to finding a designer to actually put the sites together, I know that tube style tours are making money right now, I go and check out the various designers, see what is in their portfolios and discover i can get a full tube design created for lets say, $800. I ask the designer to lower the price, she cuts $100 off, so i now have my first paysite tour designed for $700.

I still have $2135 left for the remaining 9 paysites and affiliate program design.

I ask the same designer how she feels about creating just some headers, not full tubes (because the first site was complete and all I need to do is change out headers and CSS files to make each one unique) and what the cost would be for 1, she tells me $300, I say 'okay cool, now what if i order 9 of them?', designer tells me she can do each header design for $175, I agree and the header designs are created.

I still have $560 of my initial $5000 investment left to spend.

Oh, I need hosting too, so I shop around for that, most adult hosts are charing anywhere from $50-$100 a month, but I know that some non-adult hosts are actually fine with adult content, so long as it is legal. I find a 12 month non-adult hosting plan, with comparable specifications to Webair (as the example) for $120 a year so I order it.

I still have $440 of my initial $5000 left.

Oh I also still need to get setup for processing, I ask the designer who they would recommend, they tell me CCBill or Epoch so I contact them and ask them what the costs are, I get told to process for Visa its going to cost me $750, but, I dont have that in my budget, I discuss the options about using each processor exclusively for a period of 12-24 months and see if there is anyway they can work with me on the processing fee, Epoch tells me no, CCBill tells me yes, I go with CCBill and get signed up. (this is something that has actually happened for my clients currently.)

I still have $440 left of my initial $5000 investment.

What else do I need to buy? Oh thats right, an affiliate program design, I ask the designer that I have already spend a decent amount of money with if she can work on a program design for me, nothing fancy, just enough to put the basis details of the sites I am offering, some promo tools and a couple of nice looking pics of chicks with their tits out, she agrees and tells me she can do a nice affiliate program template for $250, I haggle on the price a little more based on how much I have already spent and tell her she will be my priority choice for future work, she lowers the price to $200, I agree and pay.

I still have $240 left of my original $5000 investment.

This can ALL be done within a 30 day time-frame, and can all be done for less than $5000.

I launch my sites and 30 days later have made between $1200-$2000 (based on your figures of 1 sale a day).

It will take me about 3 months to break even and, even make a little profit.

I take that last $240 and go and buy beer, weed and hookers to celebrate the launch of my new, profitable business, that I'm going to have for many years to come, not just 1 or 2.

How am *I* in this scenario, losing money, I have no bills to pay, because I have already purchased hosting for a year, already have the domains registered for a year and own the designs and content I am using outright.

Even if i siphon off 25% of the money I make back into the business, I still break even in 3 months and that $500 a month I am putting back to invest in the business means that within a year I can launch another 10 paysites, invest in new content, domains, renew hosting costs (even upgrade hosting if required).

If my math is off any, please let me know, was writing this on the fly... Based on real life examples, no perceived examples or speculation.

Originally Posted by Pseudonymous

You took a path of learning it all and going through the stages, you started in tgps no? Thats where i remember doing most of my business with you real early on.

Originally Posted by Pseudonymous

Whoa no teaching your assistant. newcomers dont typically have these kinds of connections in order to guide them along to success

Originally Posted by Pseudonymous

Actually i urge you to look at the programs that do not and the ones that do Check alexa for a rough estimation of how they may be doing.

The programs that i know that are successful offer all the tools you need today to be an affiliate, which is most, if not all.

The only ones that do not, are stale/dead. Which is alot so you'd be correct in saying most do not.

Originally Posted by Ruseful

Well... without going into too much detail:

10 editors
9 crew members
2 production managers
1 webmaster
3 developers
2 designers
1 social media manager
1 upload manager
1 DMCA/2257 compliance manager
1 affiliate manager

And myself of course.

You need to understand that we are shooting in excess of 120 full scenes a month for updates to our existing sites and also for the new sites I am launching in my own network. We also shoot and edit content for other companies/sites too.

Its a very simple blueprint I use for the launch of each new site that factors in the site requirements for new staff and the extra burden on existing staff's time. I hire as/when needed.

As for my initial investment to start the company pre revenues, it was $200k. This enabled me to launch 2 sites: orgasms.xxx (sept '11) and casting.xxx (aug '11). We hit the ground running of course, simply because I knew what the tube users wanted. I knew the length the tube clips needed to be, I knew what to tag the clips with, how to title them and how to watermark them. I joined the Content Publishing Programs of the biggest tubes and uploaded. I got no favours and needed none. As stated before, I run my company so its self sufficient. I reinvest my profits into new sites/staff as/when the profits afford me to do this.

Of course, I have a better knowledge than most regarding how to utilise the tube traffic, but even today, I spend around an hour a day looking at all the clips on major tubes. Looking at why some clips were more successful than others, why they had high/low views, high/low ratings, reading all the user comments. Looking for any little micro switch that made a +/- difference. It also has a huge influence on the new sites I launch. No one spoon feeds me this information, but its out there for everyone. For instance, for uptodate most popular search terms on a tube, look at the footer on RedTube, they actually list the most popular search terms on their site. It helps to tag these terms in all of your tube submissions, and also load 1 or 2 into the title. Your clip will show up in more search results.

Want to know what niches do well? If you are looking for an easy answer, click on the most popular list on YouPorn Channels. Reality sites fill 5 of the top 8 (I own 3 of them). Sensual/erotic sites fill the other 3 (I own 2 of them). However, if you have the impetus to look into this further, do what I do, and study the tubes. Seriously, all your answers are out there.

Having said all that, you can't serve a turd to the tube users, it simply wont work, no matter if you have identified what niche they want, how long the clips should be etc. Thats where you need a good crew and the best editors to make sure every tube clip you put out there is the best representation of your brand.

This is just my story and the way I do things, not saying its the right way, but it works for me, (I have just hit 13,000 active members). I'm an approachable guy and will gladly help anyone that cares to reach out.

Originally Posted by arock10

imo $800 is way high for a design (sliced and coded), same with your header estimate.

I'm surprised no one has brought up using feeds like adultcentro in this thread. You can simply add a ton of non exclusive content into your sites easily this way and just pay on the usage

Originally Posted by arock10

Yes to a certain extent, but at the same time they may be primarily running it for their own traffic and just make creatives as needed. If 90% of affiliates who signup don't do anything significant why not just put more effort into targeting the better ones versus all the randos

Originally Posted by Pseudonymous

You'll choose that 150 dollars as soon as you try to go a month ;)

Originally Posted by Pseudonymous

Its 150 bucks or doing that by hand for a bunch of affiliates everyday or two or however often you update. You'll choose that 150 dollars as soon as you try to go a month ;)

Originally Posted by Pseudonymous

I dont think things such as embeddable flash videos, zip downloads for fhgs, zip downloads for flash videos, hosted flash videos, hosted photo galleries are really special requests. i think a large percent use most of those.

so if you were to just do these by hand for your few sponsors, that would be very time consuming.

Its 150 bucks or doing that by hand for a bunch of affiliates everyday or two or however often you update. You'll choose that 150 dollars as soon as you try to go a month ;)

Originally Posted by Far-L

I posit that anyone that starts a paysite today with a focus on affiliates first will be doomed to failure.

Originally Posted by Far-L

I posit that anyone that starts a paysite today with a focus on affiliates first will be doomed to failure.

Originally Posted by Webmaster Advertising

Without a successful plan to generate in-house sales from the day of launch, no matter what, a program is doomed.

Originally Posted by Far-L

My question is to XXaru Media...

What programs were the ones you worked with that failed and why did they fail, in your opinion? What was their budget? What was their business plan? How well did they execute?

Originally Posted by Xxaru Media

But this thread wasn't really about me, it was about the state of the industry in gneneral.

Originally Posted by Xxaru Media

Wow, this thread has really started to run off in all sorts of variable directions. Still, the bottom line, despite everything everyone has posted is that the only name that has come up thus far that has been able to start up a successful paysite from scratch recently and kill it is Ruseful, and he had a 200k budget (and prior experience to go with it). Please tell me how many entrepreneurs out there are walking around with 200k in their bank accounts?

All you guys posting about starting sites for $1000 and such aren?t doing so by producing content, so it doesn?t apply to the topic at hand. Yeah, I?m sure lots of newbies could come in and start a tube site with a bunch of non-exclusive content for next to nothing, but that was never the question.

Originally Posted by Pseudonymous

i think i will contact you, however i didn't see any contact information when i quickly looked last time

Originally Posted by ReggieDurango

Wow, you guys are so generous!

Originally Posted by aztecboi2003

Originally Posted by Webmaster Advertising

Oh, thats not what we've been told in this thread, it was about you and how much you would consider to be a good living...

Originally Posted by ReggieDurango

Mister Peabody, would you care to take the honors of being the thread's coveted success case?


I hope he says, "FUCK YEAH!"

Originally Posted by Ruseful

I'll be in LA and Vegas or email me jt at Ruseful dot com

Originally Posted by Webmaster Advertising

The 2nd or 3rd clip down on that page is priced incorrectly (I would assume) $40.99 for 4 minutes... Unless when the customer buys that they get a free fuck... ;)

Originally Posted by JoshGirls Josh

The reason is amply pointed out by barefooties...i have not demonstrated drive/work ethic to make my program self sustaining.

Originally Posted by JoshGirls Josh

excellent read fellas. but there are a lot of hypotheticals running around. my experience may clarify a little.

i am the poster child of what the OP is looking for, newbie that entered in the last 3 years. I am sorry to say my site is not making sales whereby i can make a living. The reason is amply pointed out by barefooties...i have not demonstrated drive/work ethic to make my program self sustaining.

however my experience in failure has been valuable & may clarify some things here.

if one is a newb, its inadequate to say a newb can launch on a low budget & start succeeding. there is a learning curve one has to endure. there is no way around it, except to try & fail, learn, try fail, learn, try, & eventually, with work, determination, & some breaks, succeed.

as a newb, i just wanted to get a site up. i didnt take initial steps necessary to educate myself on marketing or sales. I just wanted to hire chicks, bounce their tits. That is the thing i love to do with my business. the hard tedious stuff, like building the site, building an affiliate, networking, building buzz & traffic, i didnt give a fuck. so for a couple years, all i did with my limited funds was shoot.

eventually i got my site up by locking myself in my bedroom & working 6 weeks straight with editing/working with a designer/CCBill/strongbox. i launched. First week, i got a nice pop in sales from people who knew my intentions & wanted to see the product. But just 1 week in, sales died.

i was in a panic. i suddenly realized i have to learn this entire thing i ignored, called marketing. I killed my budget getting the site up, did not budget a dime for marketing. I was stuck with no money, no sales.

in fact the only thing i have ever done to market joshgirls in 3 years is get myself on the stern show with 3 girls. I expected being on his show would put the wind in my sails & i would succeed. It was the best & worst day in my life. Seeing stern live! being with my beautiful joshgirls, all together as a team. I got home, got 5 sales, & cried & cried. Literally i wanted to die.

The site exists, & it makes 5-800 a month with absolutely no marketing, ever. I still have things to correct with respect to my decisions, planning & work ethic. I struggle to understand why i will work 10 hour days for slave wages, but refuse to simply work for myself. maybe im not cut out for this.

But i will never, ever, ever close or give up. i will change. I did what i did for love, & eventually i will get it right. because i do have work ethic, it just needs to be used for productive endeavors instead of self destruction.

so my point is...I think a newb will struggle, because they will need to endure a learning curve & make mistakes before they get it right. They will need to face their own limitations & work through them. If not, go back to the 9 to 5 & suck the corporate cock.

Originally Posted by JoshGirls Josh

excellent read fellas. but there are a lot of hypotheticals running around. my experience may clarify a little.

i am the poster child of what the OP is looking for, newbie that entered in the last 3 years. I am sorry to say my site is not making sales whereby i can make a living. The reason is amply pointed out by barefooties...i have not demonstrated drive/work ethic to make my program self sustaining.

however my experience in failure has been valuable & may clarify some things here.

if one is a newb, its inadequate to say a newb can launch on a low budget & start succeeding. there is a learning curve one has to endure. there is no way around it, except to try & fail, learn, try fail, learn, try, & eventually, with work, determination, & some breaks, succeed.

as a newb, i just wanted to get a site up. i didnt take initial steps necessary to educate myself on marketing or sales. I just wanted to hire chicks, bounce their tits. That is the thing i love to do with my business. the hard tedious stuff, like building the site, building an affiliate, networking, building buzz & traffic, i didnt give a fuck. so for a couple years, all i did with my limited funds was shoot.

eventually i got my site up by locking myself in my bedroom & working 6 weeks straight with editing/working with a designer/CCBill/strongbox. i launched. First week, i got a nice pop in sales from people who knew my intentions & wanted to see the product. But just 1 week in, sales died.

i was in a panic. i suddenly realized i have to learn this entire thing i ignored, called marketing. I killed my budget getting the site up, did not budget a dime for marketing. I was stuck with no money, no sales.

in fact the only thing i have ever done to market joshgirls in 3 years is get myself on the stern show with 3 girls. I expected being on his show would put the wind in my sails & i would succeed. It was the best & worst day in my life. Seeing stern live! being with my beautiful joshgirls, all together as a team. I got home, got 5 sales, & cried & cried. Literally i wanted to die.

The site exists, & it makes 5-800 a month with absolutely no marketing, ever. I still have things to correct with respect to my decisions, planning & work ethic. I struggle to understand why i will work 10 hour days for slave wages, but refuse to simply work for myself. maybe im not cut out for this.

But i will never, ever, ever close or give up. i will change. I did what i did for love, & eventually i will get it right. because i do have work ethic, it just needs to be used for productive endeavors instead of self destruction.

so my point is...I think a newb will struggle, because they will need to endure a learning curve & make mistakes before they get it right. They will need to face their own limitations & work through them. If not, go back to the 9 to 5 & suck the corporate cock.

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

At least you admit to it. That is the first step in the right direction.

Originally Posted by Webmaster Advertising

Josh, a serious question for you...

If your site currently makes $500-800 a month, why not duplicate it for a similar niche using the content you already have?

I mean, it would seem to me like you have the basics down to be making that much each month, duplicate it and double your income, by doing exactly the same thing you are currently doing (it reads like not much of anything, apologies if I am wrong on that sir).

Thank you for chiming in on this thread too

Originally Posted by Profits of Doom

Very interesting read, and nice to see someone that is honest about their strengths and shortcomings. I also really dig your content. Are you still shooting new content, and if so do you have picture content to promote with?

Originally Posted by Webmaster Advertising

I know, I was specifically going on the higher end of the scale, reality is, those prices can mostly be halved, but some on GFY refuse to believe real-world pricing structures so i inflated them a little, just like it appears program owners and their reps have been when telling their competitors how much it costs to start a new paysite ;)

Originally Posted by Ruseful

I'll be in LA and Vegas or email me jt at Ruseful dot com

Originally Posted by Pseudonymous

Not heading to them this year, will you attend the phoenix forum at the end of march/beg of april do you think?

Originally Posted by Jim_Gunn

Wow, this turned out to be a really good thread! I think it's kind of moot whether the original question about whether a total industry noob with absolutely no experience and little money could make it in the paysite business is true or not. Clearly it would be extraordinarily difficult for the many reasons discussed but not technically impossible.

However, the more interesting and somewhat broader question that would apply to most people on this board to me is: Could an intelligent, business-savvy person with some industry experience, a small to medium amount of money, and some other technical experience, for example, either in content production, programming or as a webmaster make a successful paysite in 2013?

Based on what I am reading I think the answer is absolutely yes, with all the caveats mentioned in the thread of course.

JT, I'm a veteran content producer with his own quality content who always imagined that one could never make money promoting content on the tube sites- or anywhere else at this point for that matter without a huge effort and expenditure. Your story is inspiring and I'd be really be interested to chat with you in Vegas. I'm going to email you as well if you don't mind.

BTW- I rarely look at post counts, but I just hit 5,000 after about ten years, woohoo, lol!

Originally Posted by Ruseful

Would be great to meet with you in Vegas.
I have received your email too btw, will respond as soon as i can

Originally Posted by pgmorin

Wow that thread start to scare me a lot! I'm a newbie in the business and I'm about to launch my own paysite with exclusive content. Did it with 20k of my own money so you are making me a little bit nervous Should be ready for CCbill check up next monday.

Originally Posted by Far-L

I posit that anyone that starts a paysite today with a focus on affiliates first will be doomed to failure. Since that seems to be what most newbs would do, based on cursory knowledge, little research, no real biz plan, and believing in the GFY "I just launched five minutes ago and sales are rocking so be my affiliate" braggadocio and bluster, yes, most will fail.

Originally Posted by Webmaster Advertising

Agreed.

Without a successful plan to generate in-house sales from the day of launch, no matter what, a program is doomed.

That being said, if affiliates can generate sales from day one, take those sales, but do not let those sales dictate how successful the program is, let your own in-house sales dictate that

Treat affiliate revenue as 'gravy' - Money for nothing because it can dry up just as quickly as it floods in. Use it to re-invest and grow your own in-house revenue streams.