Helix

Bread and circuses

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GrantMercury

I don't watch much TV, but Joe Scarborough sure ain't no liberal and he's on MSNBC every morning.

I get that you hate both parties. Who doesn't? But one IS better than the other, and positive change DOES happen when the people demand it. The problem is apathy. When citizens can't be bothered to learn the names of their lawmakers - let alone contact them - the lobbyists cum in their pants. Then they've got Mr. and Mrs. Senator all to themselves.

The people can demand clean elections, but don't. The people can insist on a fairer system of taxation, but don't. The people can insist on renewable sources of energy, but don't. Sure there's tons of dirty money polluting the system - but the people still have the vote - and the lawmakers know it.

I'm not saying ANY significant change is easy. It's always been a struggle. But positive changes have taken place over America's history, even with our fucked up system. Tons of them.

And I stand by what I said regarding Faux vs. MSNBC; Faux gets away with shit that MSNBC never could.

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GrantMercury

Now hold on. Are you suggesting the GOP would squander time and taxpayer dollars on a "witch hunt"? On some meaningless charade for solely political purposes? Is there any historical precedent for that?

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Rochard

They are covering up... What? And by whom?

I swear, there is a conspiracy theory whack job nut case under every rock these days.

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GrantMercury

I'm not so sure. She has a tremendous amount of support on the ground. Instant name recognition. And a high approval rating.

She's extremely ambitious.

I think we'll have to wait and see.

I'd vote for her. She'd know how to handle Republican scumbags from day 1.

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DTK

I don't watch Scarborough, though i've heard halfway decent things about him being somewhat impartial. I'm a little dubious, but I'll check him out

Yes I do, for a really good reason i'll get to.

"Who doesn't?" srsly Grant? Have you noticed the extreme rabidness of the people who have bought into the Tea Party scam? They're being massively hustled buy a bunch of social darwinists and they have no fucking clue of it.

When I talk irl with most people (dem or rep, not TP), they'll readily agree that both parties are fully corrupt and then they'll just continue on their way with being dem or rep.

TP dupes OTOH, are like religious fundamentalists. Even when you provide them with documented facts that contradict their worldview, it simply can't get inside their bubble.

If one is capable of looking dispassionately and rationally at the situation atm, then yes, the democratic party is much more acting like grownups atm. So sure, atm their steaming pile of shit is slightly less stinky. Whoop de fuckin' do.

The reason i 'hate' both parties can be summed up in 3 words: FOLLOW THE MONEY. And that's what 99% of people never no. If they did, they'd abandon both parties in droves, because they'd see that both parties have been whoring this country out for the last 30+ years!!!

98% of Dems and Reps have not served their constituencies for decades. They serve the big money interests that 1) get them elected and 2) get them highly paid employment after they leave government. IT'S CALLED THE REVOLVING DOOR FFS.


Sure Grant, i agree. But when was the last time that happened? Viet Nam iirc. 40 years ago.

Goes without saying. But most of our intentionally dumbed-down population is too busy watching survivor or american idol to give a shit about anything that really matters

If you look at polls, the majority of people are in favor of these things, but it doesn't fucking matter. 98% of the whores in Washington don't give a fuck what the people want. They serve their paymasters

That's wayyyy too simplistic. Especially since the Citizens United ruling. BTW, i'm willing to bet that at least 75% of the people who post in political threads here have no clue what the CU ruling is.

As it stands now, people like the Koch brothers can (and did) donate $100 Million to their candidates.

Think about that for a moment. For regular people to equal what the Koch brothers spent, it would take 2 million mere mortals each scraping up $50 to equal the Koch's 'voice'.

Anyone who wants to debate whether we're still living in a constitutional republic vs a plutocracy, let's go.

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crockett

You mean like lying to go to war.. please go on.. (oh wait that's like so over 10 years ago so it doesn't even count a bit)

Robbie

It damn sure DOES count.

The U.S. govt. under Bush invaded other countries without provocation.

It was a nightmare that we all bought into (even the Democrats) because of the sting of 9-11 being so fresh.

It was and is a HUGE mistake. And history will not look kindly on it in my opinion.

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buzzard

Funny how many mainstream dupes on this GFY forum board.

If You can't live by The constitution, You deserve what you get.

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crockett

Yea but the problem is no one is perfect and neither is Obama, but he was a much better choice than any of the guys that had even a slightest chance on the Republican side. He was also certainly the better choice over McCain and his ridiculous choice of Sarah Palin in the election before that as well.

Sadly we get the govt that our country deserves and so far the people of this country haven't done much to bring about any real change. You can't sit back and expect politicians whom are all getting money from corporations and lobby firms to do anything good for the people.

Until the people of this country stop just hating the other side of the fence and instead put the target where it belongs then we will always get guys that's aren't the best ones for the job but rather the best ones money can buy.

TheFootMan5

Its funny how in the private sector she'd be fired if something similar happened but since it's government then no big deal

DTK

That's a pretty silly comment. There were 11 such attacks during the Bush II administration. Nobody turned it into a witch hunt because grownups know that you simply can't prevent all those attacks. Even the republicans leading this witch hunt know this is true, but it's...umm...a witch hunt.

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GrantMercury

Considering the November results, how much good did it do them? There were lots of pissed off rich dudes who were very unhappy with Rove. They didn't get a return on that $$$. It doesn't always work.

So you favor a third party?

I used to be a Green. I voted for Nader in 2000. I felt exactly as you do. In fact, I hated the Dems MORE than the Repugs, because while the GOP practically bragged about being the party of the prickish 1%, the Dems were supposedly the party of the people - and they always fell short. But I don't feel that way anymore. Rather than trying to build up a whole new party (no small feat) that will end up splitting the vote for the Repugs anyway (unless "instant runoff" voting is established - another massive hurdle), I'd rather take over the Democratic party and change what needs changing, starting with real campaign finance reform (to try to turn off the cash spigot from which all political evil flows). Then make the elected representatives understand they need to do what's right or they're gone.

And what is so discouraging is that we have the power to do it right now. But most people don't even know the names of their lawmakers. Or care. Then we wonder why lobbyists have control of Washington. Because we gave it to them. You say no good legislation has been passed in the last 40 years, but dirty money has always been a problem in American politics, as has propaganda, and election theft - so why stop at 40 years back? It's apathy that is the problem. We just got too comfortable as a nation, and we love our big TVs and videogames.

I'm afraid things will have to get worse before they get better. I'm glad we avoided another Great Depression after Dubya. But another depression may be just what we need to wake us up, pay attention, and fucking get serious.

We don't need a new party. We just need to use the rights we have. We've had the luxury of ignoring them for a long time.

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GrantMercury

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DTK

........That's completely beside the point. Where do you think the Tea Party would be without the huge money interests that hijacked that movement...AND gave them such an outsized voice? Nowhere, that's where.

And it wasn't just Rove and his Crossroads PAC, it was also Sheldon Adelson, Foster Friese, and (most insidiously) the Koch-backed Americans for Prosperity (increased prosperity for us ultra-rich americans, that is). and a whole bunch of other ultra-rich Social Darwinists who want to take this country back to the robber baron days.

I've voted libertarian for the last 20+ years. I had been rethinking that until Gary Johnson came on the scene for the Libertarians. He's what's called a pragmatic/progressive Libertarian as opposed to the Ivory Tower libs that make no sense to me.
With very mixed feelings, i think parties are inevitable..and i think the dems and reps are corrupt beyond repair.

Publicly funded campaigns FTW!!!

No. I said that the last time the people stood up and really demanded a change was 40 years ago w/the Viet Nam war.

Believe me, I don't. Since the dawn of the republic, there have always been big money Social Darwinist factions. Their power has ebbed and flowed. T Roosevelt fought hard against them (trust-busting etc) and FD Roosevelt carried that on with the New Deal that created a real middle class.

Here's the problem. Since FDR, the only president who tried to make real major change (in favor of We The People) ended up with his brains blown out in Dallas.

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bronco67

You're absolutely right. Both networks are biased, but...

At least on MSNBC they actually have in-depth political discussions, as opposed to Fox News that is just a bunch of righting wing idiots complaining about Obama this and Obama that.

Anyone on Fox News would be eaten alive by Lawrence O Donell and Rachel Maddow. They have smart people on MSNBC. Bill O Reilly and Sean Hannity are mental midgets. I'm not saying that because I also think they're assholes -- those guys are just flat out ignorant, bigoted and just idiots. I can't stand to listen to either one of them for more than a minute.

The republican party is in so much trouble because they listen to the Rush Limabaughs, Glens Becks and Sean Hannitys too much. The tail is wagging the dog.

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DTK

Their products are fear and anger, and (credit where it's due) they sell them amazingly, incredibly well to a listenership/viewership that is largely ignorant of the big picture.

Then they fill their brains with whatever their paymasters tell them to.

They're so good at it that documented facts contradicting their claims almost never pierce that bubble in their dupes' minds.

World class brainwashing.

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bronco67

Don't give their product too much credit...the people they sell to are generally retarded.

But my father-in-law, who is an otherwise very intelligent guy watches Fox News exclusively and lives in that bubble. Any political talk sounds directly out of the Bill O Reilly playbook, and he's so under-informed. I can't even have a discussion with the guy. I remember telling him what a scumbag Romney was, and describing all of the reasons to back up my opinion -- but it didn't get through because he was the great white hope to get Obama out of the White House. My argument was vindicated in a pretty solid way when the 47% video came out the very next day, and then there was all of the other Romney douche-chill moments for the next few months.

The thing that finally convinced him Romney was slime, was hearing news that all of the campaign staffers credit cards were cancelled moments after the concession speech. I facepalmed.

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DTK

More politely called low-information voters ;)

Dude, I know..I live this. 2 family members, bright, successful professionals are exactly like this. Like I said, world class brainwashing.

Sometimes i want to say "guys, O'reilly is paid to act like a bullying, obnoxious asshole. What's your excuse?"

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GrantMercury

True. Yet, how have the teabaggers been doing? http://www.nonprofitquarterly.org/po...er-fading.html

I know. And I'm sure all those scumbags were most unhappy on November 7th. They have tons of dirty money, but the people still get a vote. In spite of all his money, and the horrible CU ruling, the people have the power to jam Shelly's dangling old balls in his mouth and pull them out through his nose. It just sucks that more people don't want to. At least we can take some satisfaction that he didn't get the Rom-bitch he paid so much for. http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/...ng-150-million

I don't see your point. Should we stop trying because anyone decent will surely be assassinated? Would Gary Johnson fare any better?

Fuck, yeah!

My mistake. And I agree. It's amazing what conscription can do. Make it personal, and suddenly people start to give a fuck. Then things start happening. To me, the shame is that we don't NEED to march in the streets and fight with cops and throw shit. All we have to do is use our fucking phones. Lawmakers DO take that shit seriously. They log those calls. They know the ones calling today will be voting (and/or donating) tomorrow. We also have the right and responsibility to attend the town hall meetings and ask real questions. The press always covers those things. I've been approached by reporters who wanted to follow up on a question I asked at a town hall - so then the readers of that paper saw the question - and the response by their elected official. And it didn't cost anything but a few hours of time. We really are so fortunate, and owe so much to the ones who fought for our right to vote, to get involved, and to question our government. We don't need to pick up arms. Just our phones will do - if enough people do it.

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GrantMercury

Political Conservatives tend to need daddy figures. They respond to authoritarian personalities.

"Preferences for stability, order, familiarity, and conformity add up to a strong propensity for what Jost calls system justification, or ?favorable attitudes about the overarching social order.? That is true not only among conservatives who are well-served by the status quo ? those with wealth and power ? but among those whose individual or group interests are ill-served by the social order.

At the far conservative end of the spectrum one finds the authoritarian personality: extremely hostile to change, intolerant of ambiguity or difference, and highly attuned to established hierarchy." http://grist.org/politics/2011-11-02...arty-politics/

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onwebcam

This article should help you out in catching up on what really happened.

"There is an urgent need for full disclosure of what has become the ?Benghazi Betrayal and Cover-up.? The Obama national security team, including CIA, DNI and the Pentagon, apparently watched and listened to the assault on the U.S. consulate and cries for help but did nothing. If someone had described a fictional situation with a similar scenario and described our leadership ignoring the pleas for help, I would have said it was not realistic?not in my America ? but I would have been proven wrong.



We now know why Ambassador Christopher Stevens had to be in Benghazi the night of 9/11 to meet a Turkish representative, even though he feared for his safety. According to various reports, one of Stevens? main missions in Libya was to facilitate the transfer of much of Gadhafi?s military equipment, including the deadly SA-7 ? portable SAMs ? to Islamists and other al Qaeda-affiliated groups fighting the Assad Regime in Syria. In an excellent article, Aaron Klein states that Stevens routinely used our Benghazi consulate (mission) to coordinate the Turkish, Saudi Arabian and Qatari governments? support for insurgencies throughout the Middle East. Further, according to Egyptian security sources, Stevens played a ?central role in recruiting Islamic jihadists to fight the Assad Regime in Syria.?



In another excellent article, Clare Lopez at RadicalIslam.org noted that there were two large warehouse-type buildings associated with our Benghazi mission. During the terrorist attack, the warehouses were probably looted. We do not know what was there and if it was being administrated by our two former Navy SEALs and the CIA operatives who were in Benghazi. Nonetheless, the equipment was going to hardline jihadis."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ened-benghazi/

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Rochard

You clearly have zero understanding of how military tactics work in these circumstances.

While I was in the Marines this was one of the things we trained for, and later on one of the things I taught - entering a US Embassy under fire and taking control. We had mock embassies set up at "Combat Town" on board Camp Lejeune. An attacking force of hundreds of men using trucks with mounted machine guns wasn't even something we considered.

You cannot send in C130s and airplanes to bomb. We are talking about a sovereign nation here, and the embassy was located in the second largest city in Libya. You cannot take a terrorist incident and immediately escalate into an act of war.

Also, there was US Special Forces some four hundred miles away - In Italy, across the Mediterranean Sea. What exactly did you want them to do? Parachute in? Helicopter in? (I did mention the trucks with the mounted machines right?) The only way for them to go in would be with a secured landing area (with protection guaranteed by the Libyans, good fucking luck!) and then have them fight their way in... Only to have more of the same: They would still be vastly out numbered and out gunned.

So immediately military options were completely off the table.

The article itself was clearly very well written. It quotes another source (RadicalIslam.org, not even a fucking newspaper but a website) and mentions "two large warehouse-type buildings" associated with the embassy. The article quotes another article that says the "the warehouses were probably looted" and then "We do not know what was there". So your article quotes some website that claims buildings that might have been associated with the US embassy might have been looted but no one knows what was in those buildings. In others, not an ounce of fact. For all we know these buildings had pillows stuff with feathers in them.

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There's all sorts of evidence that it was a weapon op gone awry

American Killed in Libya Was on Intel Mission to Track Weapons
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/glen-d...ry?id=17229037


Rand Paul: Was Benghazi op running guns?
Senator says evidence from catastrophe suggests a political operation went awry
Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2013/01/rand-paul...XRPGvAiXCki.99


"The U.S. effort in Benghazi was at its heart a CIA operation," officials briefed on intelligence told the Wall Street Journal, and there's evidence that U.S. agents—particularly murdered U.S. ambassador Chris Stevens—were at least aware of heavy weapons moving from Libya to Syrian rebels.

WSJ reports that the State Department presence in Benghazi "provided diplomatic cover" for the previously hidden CIA mission, which involved finding and repurchasing heavy weaponry looted from Libyan government arsenals. These weapons are presumably from Muammar Gaddafi's stock of about 20,000 portable heat-seeking missiles, the bulk of which were SA-7 surface-to-air anti-aircraft missiles.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/bengh...#ixzz2JOAWEUjZ


Was Syrian weapons shipment factor in ambassador’s Benghazi visit?

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...#ixzz2JOAqjb78

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Rochard

So let me see if I understand you correctly.... You mean to tell me that the CIA was using the Embassy as a cover? Wow, surprise. I mean, I didn't see that coming a mile away.

I'm just gonna guess... Just throwing this out there..... The US and various allies used the CIA and other resources to move weapons into the country to help over throw Gaddafi. I'm guessing the State Department knew about it, The CIA, US Military forces in the area, The White House, AND CONGRESS all knew about it. The White House told us we didn't have "boots on the ground" in Libya - which means US military forces - but of course the CIA was knee deep there.

I going to go out on a limb here - I'm guessing the CIA is knee deep in Syria as well.

So then why are certain members of Congress going after the State Department asking them why we didn't have better security there? We all know the answer - Short of stationing a company of heavily armed US Marines, you will never be able to protect an embassy in a foreign country against an attack with hundreds of men in trucks armed with mounted machine guns.

If the CIA was operating in the area - and obviously they were because one of the buildings attacked was a CIA building - Then Congress already knew about it and authorized it.

I don't care about Clinton - I honestly don't. She's out of here and I pray she doesn't run for President in four years. But this is nothing more than Congress trying to bitch smack people around for no reason.

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The key point that you are missing here is those same "rebels" aka Al Qaeda that we are supplying the weapons to and "tracking and acquiring from" are also the same supposed "terrorists" that attacked the embassy. Or that's what we are lead to believe outside of the admittance of the gun running op. (the second screwed up operation the Obama admin has been caught up in)

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Doctor Dre

Good attempt at moving the goalposts. O'reilly is far right, NYT is center, center right...

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newB

Every time I see this thread title, my brain interprets it as "Rand Paul slams Chicken: I would have Fried you" - perhaps it's time for lunch.

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Rochard

Maybe; There are a lot of fine lines in such areas. We supported the "Libyan opposition forces", which seems to have included Al Qaeda to some extent. And then Al Qaeda attacked our embassy there. It might be less about Al Qaeda trying to secure weapons and more about Al Qaeda having the opportunity to attack the US. We still have yet to see how Al Qaeda benefited from this attack. Seems that one article seems to imply "some buildings that may be associated with the US" was "possibility storing weapons of some sort or maybe down pillows" and that they "might have been looted during the attack on the embassy". You have no story here yet - This article is second guessing everything. For all we know these buildings were owned by a company out of Hong Kong and were storing rubber ducks.

As for the "second screwed up operation the Obama admin has been caught up in".... I'm not seeing that. Seems to me the goal was to remove Gaddafi, and in that respect the mission was a complete success. And I am also guessing that Congress was involved as well - You can't be moving around millions of dollars of military hardware without Congress knowing about it. It's just like the Iran Contra Affair - You really don't think Congress and the White House didn't know what was going on?

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The Ambassador was known for gun running. It's admitted he was there to transfer weapons. One of the ex-soldiers killed stated on TV that he was there for weapons tracking, acquisitions, and "disposal." It was a weapons operation gone awry. That is what I mean by second. The first was Fast and Furious. If you're not familiar with it it's where this Administration was supplying arms to the Mexican drug cartels.

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DTK

Sorta beside the point. They (and their accomplices in right-wing media), turned the Tea Party from a little fringe organization into a significant political force in 4-6 years, and they're not going anywhere. They have tens of billions (with a B) to spend, and they want what they want.


No, of course it doesn't mean we should stop trying. It just points out the forces ranged against those who want to make REAL change. Kennedy wanted to make REAL change.

Also, it definitely makes me wonder if this country is beyond hope and is systematically being bled dry. There's certainly plenty of evidence to back up this thought ie. the Banksters ripping this country off for $12 Trillion and getting off scot-free.

Also, it points out the ridiculousness of arguing about dem v rep, which stuffed shirt inhabits the White House at a given time etc.

It doesn't fucking matter people! They're all just business agents for those that got them elected AND will give them lucrative employment after they leave office.

Somewhat different take. Polls show that a strong majority of americans favor common sense gun regulations, higher taxes for the rich, and significant reductions in military spending.

But guess what? Far right-wing republicans (who have almost become mainstream) are vehemently opposing all those things. Why? Because they're in the back pockets of those interests!!!

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GrantMercury

So, WE have to get them elected (millions of Americans make small donations), and then change the laws to stop the "revolving door" http://www.ncsl.org/legislatures-ele...hibitions.aspx and reform campaign finance.

Very true - but a strong majority of Americans have been giving the Rethugs quite a pounding at the polls these days.

Again, I'm not saying any of this shit is easy. I have a hard time thinking of a scenario short of a full-on depression that would rouse enough of the public to force these changes.

What about Gary Johnson? What would keep him, or any other 3rd party candidate, from falling to the crooked system that props up the Dems and the Cons?

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DTK

Yeah, but remember...everyone hooked into the right-wing media bubble sees everyone who doesn't 100% agree with their stuff is (Limbaugh voice)The Liberal Media(/Limbaugh voice). I've said it before, Minte has a blind spot you could drive a truck through.

I sorta hate singling out Minte, but he's typical of people hooked into the right ring propaganda machine. He's in the bubble, and documented facts that contradict the stuff he regurgitates can't penetrate that bubble. I've seen this numerous times in threads here. He's the perfect example of a victim of the (admittedly excellent) right wing media brainwashing machine.

Forget about trying to trying to get through to people like him. Well don't stop trying, but don't hold much hope of having a rational, open exchange of ideas

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Robbie

The "right" has nothing on the "left" when it comes to blind hypocrisy.

I watch CNN, FNC, & MSNBC.

And MSNBC is the MOST ridiculous "news" channel I have ever seen.

Just sit down and watch Ed Shulz and Rachel Maddow back to back. It's a joke. They don't even bother trying to "report" any news at all. They just attack, attack, and attack all Republican politicians.

It's pathetic.

Fox News has Shepard Smith's "Fox Report". That is solid news reporting.
CNN has Wolf Blitzers "Situation Room". Also pretty solid.

MSNBC has NOTHING that actually just reports what is going on in the world! It is THE worst.

And I hear and read (right here on GFY) plenty of far left Democrats just blindly spouting the same talking points that MSNBC reports verbatim from the White House daily.

I'm still wondering what happened to the press that used to QUESTION everything the govt. did?
I guess they only do that if it's a Republican administration these days.

Or as Chris Matthews (of MSNBC) said: "I get a tingle up my leg when I hear Obama speak"

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DTK

I hear ya, but i think you're being overly optimistic about the power of "WE" these days. One example - I wonder how many people even know what OWS is really about. You sure won't hear about it in right wing and (allegedly) 'mainstream' media.


You forgot to mention the DemoCrips. Yeah, their steaming pile of shit is slightly less stinky atm, but woop dee doo.

Nothing really, and it would eventually happen. At least at the moment, the Progressive/Pragmatic Libertarians offer a renewal that simply won't happen with the dem/rep/tp circle jerk.

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DTK

I completely disagree, but it's irrelevant in the bigger picture.

They're both utterly worthless if you want to figure out what's really going on.

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Robbie

I wasn't referring to any "bigger picture"
Neither you or I have any freakin' idea of what the true "bigger picture" is. We aren't privy to that kind of info.

I'm just a pornographer on a message board talking to someone I don't know (you)

But I do know what I see on MSNBC, CNN, and Fox News. So you can "disgree' all you like.

Just turn the channel to MSNBC and sit through Al Sharpton's show. Or Ed Shulz's show. Or Rachel Maddow. Or ANY of the prime time shows on MSNBC.

You will not hear one single news item reported. It will all be an open and undiluted attack on Republican politicians.
There is nothing to disagree about on that. Just watch it and you'll see for yourself.

Me? I like switching between the three "news" networks. It's entertaining.

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DTK

1) I do, because i take the time to do lots of research. And if you take the "follow the money" tack in your research, it becomes blatantly obvious and always leads me back to (see sig)

2) Yeah, it's entertaining for a minute for a minute or five...then my blood pressure spikes. This especially happens when listening to right-wing media. Because at this time, their connection to reality is much more tenuous than left-wing media. I know this because I fact-check the stuff that comes out of both sides of both sides of their collective mouths LOL. Either way, with a few exceptions, they're worthless.

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