Vendzilla

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/08/m...ill-civilians/

One point that needs to be made, but rarely if ever mentioned, is that in the supposed rationale for US attack on Syria to avenge/prevent claimed civilian deaths by government gas attacks, the US government itself has used similar weapons openly as recently as the FBI/ATF attack on the Branch Davidian compound near Waco Texas in the spring of 1993.

76 men, women and children died in this senseless military style assault which used highly lethal military CS gas as a primary weapon. CS is not a nerve agent and it doesn?t in normal concentrations cause immediate death. But it is highly flammable, persistent and designed to incapacitate targets by causing massive biological reactions including inability to breathe, massive tearing in the eyes, nose bleeds, etc.

The Davidians were totally surrounded, posed no threat to others, and responded with weapons fire only after the ATF/FBI attacked with military style firearms. After the initial government assault was repelled, and after a long standoff, an impatient President Clinton and his Attorney General Janet Reno ordered an all-out military assault on the compound, despite the fact that the only legal justification was a single warrant for David Koresh on unproven charges. The presence of innocent group members was ignored, nor was there any planning for medical aid or fire suppression.

The rest is history. Special military tanks were used to puncture compound walls and insert large quantities of CS gas. CS gas grenades were used from military stores along with 2 metal CS pyrotechnic M651E1 shells. Other pyrotechnic devices and flammable rounds were also fired into the buildings despite known dangers of CS gas ignition and chemical changes to the CS in fires making it even more deadly.

Wikipedia has more details. The video ?Rules of Engagement? makes it clear that this was a deliberate effort to kill those inside.

In the run up to the Iraq invasion and now with Syria, United States officials loudly wailed about these regimes ?killing civilians? with poison gas. Despite lack of hard evidence for such use in these countries, there is no doubt that President Clinton and Reno approved this exact same tactic.


While some victims were shot, most died from burns or asphyxiation as a result of the CS gas and the subsequent firestorm created when it was ignited deliberately.

So precedent is clear: the US Empire can use poison gas against peaceful religious dissenters when they do not immediately surrender to heavily armed police forces using military weapons. This is lied about, rationalized and ultimately forgotten, with the dead victims being blamed for their ?suicidal actions.?

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Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants
think about that

xNetworx

Timmy McVeigh already got mad about that

XXXProxy

I'm from the U.S., ex-police officer, and we shouldn't be policing other nations. If they want to blow themselves up, gas themselves, or whatever it is that they do over there. Let um do it, as long as it is over there.

This is what is so fucked up. This happens everyday in the American ghetto's, do we get pissed that they are killing each other, and this is in our own country?

Point made.

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xNetworx

Why "ex" ?

baddog

You are comparing tear gas to sarin gas? Seriously?

baddog

Because he was too fucking stupid to know the difference between tear gas and Sarin? That would be sufficient reason to fire him.

XXXProxy

Being a police officer doesn't pay six figures, and I am too stupid to make 7 figures...

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Should Obama be in Office?

XXXProxy

wtf does my post have anything to do with either gas?

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pornmasta

you could call this torture

fitzmulti

..........................

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Vendzilla

It's the way it was used, I don't know if you have ever been exposed to tear gas, I have.

Most everyone that goes thru military training does!

Any asshole that would use it on children should have there nuts removed with a sledge hammer.

End result, it killed people, dead is dead, that's the comparison

__________________
Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants
think about that

8pt-buck

Rochard

I agree. I'm stunned the stupidity here. At what point in time do we compare tear gas to sarin gas? I'm former military; I went through the gas chamber; I sucked up all of the cs gas... I'll tell you what, it clear out my fucking sinuses (thick snot running from my nose to the ground), but oddly enough I'm still here and there was no temporary damage no less permanent damage.

Sarin gas on the other hand can kill someone in sixty seconds.

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Seth Manson

Are you really former military?

baddog

I guess if the shoe fits, wear it . . . even if I wasn't directing my initial comment to you.

And V; are you really trying to suggest there is no difference between the two?

Vendzilla

If there was ventilation, then there is a difference, the FBI first pumped CS into the buildings, then fired so many 40mm ferret CS rounds into the building after that, they ran out and asked for more CS rounds.
I went thru the same training, the fire training with the black smoke was worse, but even that wasn't the hardest training I went thru, remember the dive tower you asked me about?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CS_gas

On September 28, 2000, Prof. Dr. Uwe Heinrich released a study commissioned by John C. Danforth, of the United States Office of Special Counsel, to investigate the use of CS by the FBI at the Branch Davidians' Mount Carmel compound. He concluded that the lethality of CS used would have been determined mainly by two factors: whether gas masks were used and whether the occupants were trapped in a room. He suggests that if no gas masks were used and the occupants were trapped, then, "...there is a distinct possibility that this kind of CS exposure can significantly contribute to or even cause lethal effects

__________________
Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants
think about that

Vendzilla

Let me remind everyone that no illegal guns were found after the buildings burned down

__________________
Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants
think about that

Rochard

Don't care.

You look at it as "big bad government" and I look at it like "a bunch of fucking lunatics are sucking down my tax dollars". This dragged out for three months. At a certain point in time, our government had to take action.

Still not caring. Two decades this later this is STILL an acceptable method of law enforcement. It's tear gas.

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Rochard

I'm not sure if this is true or not, but there is no doubt that these people were armed - they shot and killed multiple officers in the original raid.

Law enforcement had both search warrants and arrest warrants. They had plenty of reason to investigate; They were shot at during the raid, and returned fire. There were kids in the compound, yet they were shooting at police?

Don't kid yourself here - this wasn't a group of Christians praying twice a week. This was an armed military compound full of armed lunatics who opened fire on police officers legally serving multiple warrants.

Brett, listen carefully here... If the police come to your house with a warrant, and you shoot them, they will not only shoot back but eventually they will force you out of your house using CS gas. It doesn't matter if it's one or two people in a house or thirty people in a compound, it's standard operating procedure.

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Rochard

While I am thinking of it... I don't think CS gas is flammable.

It doesn't mention it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CS_gas

I am pretty sure when I went through the gas chamber there was an open flame cooking the stuff... They used a bunson burner to light it up.

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Seth Manson

Did you guys swap spit in the shower after that?

Vendzilla

They never found illegal guns, the warrant was served at the end of a gun barrel. They were raided. That's not how you serve a warrant.

23 kids died!

Autopsy photographs of other children locked in what appear to be spasmic death poses are consistent with cyanide poisoning, one of the results produced by burning CS gas

FBI spokesmen denied (even under oath) the use of any sort of pyrotechnic devices during the assault; however, pyrotechnic Flite-Rite CS gas grenades had been found in the rubble immediately following the fire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege


And Richard, I don't care what their religion was, they have a right to what ever religion they want, kind of a guarantee of the constitution last I heard. That warrant was mainly for what they thought was a meth lab they said he had, even though Koresh had dismantled the lab and gave it to the Sheriff when he took charge long before the warrant was issued. That warrant was given out because of disgruntled ex members from 6 years prior!

__________________
Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants
think about that

Barry-xlovecam

Badmaash

So what happens if you just happened to be in that country and you got gased?

Oh well, who give a fuck about you, right?

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notinmybackyard

Arguing with a patriot is like arguing with a relgious zealot. No matter what you say, how much common sense you make or bonifide proof you provide for your argument, they will always say you are wrong.

In the end even the most addicted crack addict is far more reasonable when discussing their addictions.

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Barry-xlovecam

SilentKnight

Yep, similiar to what I experienced in basic training in Cornwallis, Nova Scotia. They burned it in a tin pie plate over a bunson burner in the gas hut.

I didn't find it all that bad. We were marched in with gas masks on...then told to remove them. I breathed shallow and kept my eyes squinted enough with tears to keep the worst of the gas out. When we finally exited the gas hut, I sat down on the grass and lit a smoke.

slapass

How did you survive it?

Vendzilla

I was an adult
I had a mask for the better part of it.
it was well ventilated and when I couldn't take it any longer, I could leave the building.
I was one of the last people to leave.

I had all sorts of training in the Navy that would freak out most

__________________
Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants
think about that

Rochard

The warrant was served like any other warrant; Police showed up and announced "We have a warrant". In fact, they had multiple warrants, some search warrants and some arrest warrants. They were greeted with gunfire. At that point, the reason the police were there is irrelevant - Warrants or not, we now have people shooting at police officers.

Brett, apply common sense here: If police show up on your doorstep with a warrant and you shoot at them, the police are going to evict you by force if required. The Police aren't going to walk away and say "Opps, sorry".

And your point is what?

My guess is that these nut jobs knew the end was coming, and set fire to the place at three different locations.

They do have the right to practice any religion they want. This has nothing to do with religion; They had multiple warrants for multiple reasons and multiple arrest warrants. The police had valid reasons to be there; No one had a valid reason to shoot at law enforcement.

76 people died, not because of the police, but because they decided to get into a gun battle with police.

There is no debate on this. Police served a warrant and were shot at.

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Vendzilla

They had a warrant for a drug lab that had been turned into the sheriff before the warrant was issued. They also had a warrant for illegal guns, when none existed.

They did not announce themselves. The ATF did not announce they had a warrant, they raided the complex and had their blood type written on their arms, does that sound like the normal way of serving a warrant? They sent in a Dog Team to kill the dogs at the complex, is that the way you serve a warrant?

Richard, please read before commenting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege
Because right now you haven't a clue

__________________
Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants
think about that

Vendzilla

pyrotechnic Flite-Rite CS gas grenades cause fires!

__________________
Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants
think about that

Rochard

You only believe what you want to believe in.

"The group was suspected of weapons violations and a search and arrest warrant was obtained."

The group was suspected of weapons violations, they had a search warrant, and they also had an arrest warrant.

They didn't? The ATF just walked up and started shooting?

I'm pretty confident they did announce themselves.

I did read this, I even quoted it above. The first rule of GFY is that you research what you are about say so you don't look like an ass. You usually fail to research anything and just blindly re-post some bullshit from a slanted website.

This is very simple Brett. People in town had multiple reasons to be concerned about a group of well armed people. A series of newspaper articles were published about how they were abusing children, and how their leader thought he had the right to have "one hundred and forty wives". A former Former Branch Davidian members told law enforcement they had been modifying AR15, automatic gun fire had been heard at the compound, and a UPS driver reported more suspicious activity at the compound including handguns, grenades, and gun power. The local sheriff called ATF in for help.

When law enforcement rolled up - and I am sure they rolled up in force being as they were out numbered five to one against what they already knew was a well armed group of people, the Branch Davidians shot at police officers.

Again, it's very simple - common sense really. Law enforcement had plenty of reasons to have multiple warrant, and when they shot at police officers the potential minor firearm violations were the least of their crimes.

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- Sarah Huckabee Sanders

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potter

Comparing tear gas to sarin? I can go buy tear gas at the local store!

As usual, Vendzilla = idiot

__________________

Vendzilla

The ATF rolled up with there blood types on their sleeves, does this sound like a way to serve a warrant against a place that has children? Really Richard?
Koresh came out of the compound all the time, this was a huge FUCK UP

They didn't even use ATF vehicles, they rolled up in personal vehicles
So you are ok with FBI agents using military grade CS gas against children in a closed building, you are a piece of shit!

__________________
Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants
think about that

seeandsee

hahahaah they dont care about chemical weapons, only oil and new wars

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dyna mo

i've research the waco tragedy extensively.

i can fully see vendzilla's point.

there is no question that the main structure was hot boxed with tear gas with children in there.

_Richard_

that dude makes $120k a year

and, because of picture, will make 120k per year for the rest of his life, with never having to work again

ThunderBalls

Apparently a guy claiming he was God fucking 12 and 13 year old girls is ok in Vendzilla, the public masturbators book.

A whacko defending a whacko in Waco.

dyna mo

here's a way to look at the point of the op.

the article he linked and quoted makes the comparison to point out the hypocrisy of the usa attacking syria.

right or wrong. the fact that the media can and does make the comparison means the usa will not emerge the good guys for bombing syria.

theking

It appears that you may be wrong.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/blwacoguns.htm

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_Richard_

incredible all that survived the fire.

beemk

I think the other GFYers who have been reading your posts over the years would respectfully disagree.

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Vendzilla

Hey shit for brains
No evidence of child abuse was ever found you ignorant fuck

Another tactic the federal government used to demonize the Davidians was to accuse them of child abuse. These accusations originally arose from Marc Breault, a former follower of Koresh who had a bitter falling out with him. Breault quit the sect at the end of 1989 and moved to Australia. He then threw himself into a campaign to discredit his former mentor, in the process leading away most of the Australian members of the sect.

In March 1990 Breault, his wife and a number of his Australian followers swore out more than 30 pages of affidavits claiming that Koresh was abusing children. A second set of affidavits was sworn out for use in a child custody hearing in early 1992, in which a Michigan man named David Jewell petitioned to gain custody of his daughter, then living at Mt. Carmel with Jewell's ex-wife. However, the allegations were mostly general and lacking in detail [48] .

Thus the allegations of child abuse sprung from two sources: (1) a man who hated Koresh and was obsessed with discrediting him; and (2) a child-custody dispute. Note that allegations of child abuse are a common tactic in child-custody disputes.

As a result of Breault's efforts, local authorities began an investigation of the child abuse charges. Officials of the Child Protective Services division of the Texas Department of Protective and Regulatory Services, and the McLennan County sheriff's office, visited Mt. Carmel in February and March 1992. They found no evidence of child abuse [46] .

On April 23, 1993, in response to the Clinton administration's continued claims of child abuse, the Texas Department of Protective and Regulatory Services offered the following summary of its nine-week investigation: "None of the allegations could be verified. The children denied being abused in any way by any adults in the compound. They denied any knowledge of other children being abused. The adults consistently denied participation in or knowledge of any abuse to children. Examinations of the children produced no indication of current or previous injuries." Texas child protection officials also said they received no further abuse allegations after that time [48] .

Breault had also contacted the FBI, accusing Koresh of a number of other crimes besides child abuse. A February 23, 1993 FBI memo, obtained by the Dallas Morning News, stated that no information had been developed to verify the allegations of "child abuse and neglect, tax evasion, slavery and reports of possible mass destruction."

The Clinton administration alleged that the Davidians were abusing children during the siege of Mt. Carmel. This was contradicted by those who actually saw the children. During the siege a man named Louis Alaniz managed to sneak past federal officials to visit the Davidians (he was not a Davidian himself). After leaving, he reported that the children at Mt. Carmel appeared happy, playing and laughing continuously, and that there were no outward signs of child abuse [44] .

Sheriff Jack Harwell, who was the only outside negotiator brought into the Mount Carmel siege, said there was never any proof that children were being abused inside the compound. None of the children who were released from the compound, Harwell said, showed any signs of physical abuse [45] .

According to Texas child protective services officials, none of the 21 children released to the authorities showed signs of abuse, and none of them confirmed that any abuse was committed. The children were physically and psychologically examined [45] , [47] . Dr. Bruce Perry, the head of the team treating the children, stated flatly: "(N)one of the 21 children had been sexually abused or molested." [69]

After the blaze that killed most of the Davidians, the Clinton administration stepped up its "child abuse" offensive. White House communications director George Stephanopoulos claimed that "there was overwhelming evidence of child abuse in the Waco compound." [39] But this claim was contradicted by others within the federal government itself.

FBI director William Sessions said his agency had "no contemporaneous evidence" of child abuse in the compound during the siege [48] . "(T)here had been no recent reports of the beating of children." In response to Janet Reno's claim of reports that "babies were being beaten," Sessions said, "I do not know what the attorney general was referring to specifically." [37]

The Justice Department itself put the lie to Clinton's and Reno's wild accusations. In a report released in early October, the Justice Department said there was no evidence of child abuse at the compound during the siege or even enough evidence to arrest Koresh on such charges before the February 28 raid [5]

__________________
Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants
think about that

RyuLion

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Vendzilla

Texas gun laws are different from the rest of the US, they can own machine guns

The press and the federal government made much of the Davidians' collection of guns. President Clinton claimed the Davidians had "illegally stockpiled weaponry and ammunition." [1] But there is no law limiting the number of legal weapons one may accumulate. Furthermore, by Texas standards the Davidians' gun collection was rather small. After the siege investigators found only 200 firearms in the ruins of Mt. Carmel [57] , which amounts to about two guns per adult. But Texas' 17 million residents own a total of 68 million guns, for an average of four guns apiece, while 16,600 Texans legally own machine guns [33] .

The government also claimed that the Davidians were planning an assault on Waco. This claim was based on third-hand information related to ATF Special Agent Davy Aguilera, who filed the affidavit for the original raid on Mt. Carmel. Aguilera had interviewed ATF Special Agent Carlos Torres, who had interviewed Joyce Sparks, an investigator with the Texas Department of Human Services. According to Aguilera's affidavit, Torres told Aguilera that Sparks had told him that Koresh had told her "that he was the `Messenger' from God, that the world was coming to an end, and that when he `reveals' himself the riots in Los Angeles would pale in comparison to what was going to happen in Waco, Texas." Furthermore, this self-revelation "would be a `military type operation' and... all the `non-believers' would have to suffer." Koresh supposedly said this on Sparks' second and final visit to Mt. Carmel to investigate child-abuse charges, on April 6, 1992 [63] . But the LA riots broke out on April 29, more than three weeks after Sparks last visited Koresh!

__________________
Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants
think about that

Vendzilla

http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/waco.horn.html#T51

Importantly, this was not a no-knock search warrant, in which agents may knock down doors and burst in heavily armed without prior warning to occupants; such warrants must be specifically applied for, which the ATF failed to do [53] . Nor was a no-knock approach necessary. As we have seen, Koresh and his followers had peacefully cooperated with law enforcement officers on at least three occasions in the past (once after the Roden gunfight, twice during the child-abuse investigation). And in July 1992 Koresh had actually invited ATF investigators to come out to Mt. Carmel and inspect the Davidians' guns [4] , [6] , [55] , but he was angrily told "we don't want to do it that way." [6]

Furthermore, the ATF knew that nearly all the guns at Mt. Carmel were locked up and only Koresh had a key [63] . To avoid any possibility of armed resistance from the Davidians, they could have simply detained Koresh during one of his frequent excursions outside of Mt. Carmel [18] , [29] and had him unlock the store of guns in their presence.

__________________
Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants
think about that

Vendzilla

Sorry, but anyone that thinks gassing children in a closed room is ok, is pretty fucked up in the head. There is a lot of proof as to the incompetence of the FBI and the ATF out there, for those that can Google it. Coming from good sources.

They knew there was kids in there, the warrant did not allow them to do a seige, it was a general warrant. the guns they had on the compound, the ATF had inspected at an earlier time and knew they were legal in the state of Texas.

There was never any proof of child abuse except for the FBI using CS gas on them

__________________
Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants
think about that

ThunderBalls

Sure, and this 14 year old was a CIA plant.

Girl Tells Of Molestation By Koresh

Now please stick to topics you know about, like public masturbation.

Vendzilla

She was part of a custody fight, ever been to one of those? People get their kids to lie all the time.

Where are the other girls she talks about coming forward?

__________________
Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants
think about that