CCbill Response regarding Glo-bill - GoFuckYourself.com

RonC · 10-03-2002, 09:21 AM

We have been asked over and over to explain why we think Glo-bill will not be able to avoid the new regulations by moving offshore, and will Visa shut them down.

First off let me say I have only positive things to say about Glo-bill. I have never heard anything negative. I do not think that they have any bad intentions, just mis-information

To understand Visa you must first forget your common sense, and sense of fair play. The best way to understand them is to think of it this way. It is their bat, their ball, their field, and most important
their umpire, and did I forget to say they get to changes the rules during the middle of the game.

This is how the scenario will play out. Glo-bill is most likely going to try to say they are just the merchant, and they just pay a referral fee to webmasters for sending transactions.
lets say for simple math that 100 customers leave CCbill, Ibill and Epoch to go over to Glo-bill thinking the grass is greener on that side. They will pay the $750 to the current processor since
the recurring transactions are worth more than $750 per year and do not want to loose that income. CCbill, Ibill, or Paycom report that customers name and urls as a U.S. webmaster and are able to process it with no problem.
The end of the first month comes and Glo-bills new bank (lets say in Germany) gets a notice from Visa. The notice will say that they are currently in violation of section XXX. of their Visa operating agreement and
are introducing non coded High Risk IPSP transaction into the Visa system. You currently have 100 Sponsored merchants that are in violation of the cross boarder rules. The fine for this is $25,000 per Webmaster
or $2.5 million fine. (Guess webmaster are not getting checks this week) The bank will say wait a minute, we are not going to pay this, they will due what all banks do, they will pass this down to the merchant (Glo-bill). Visa will also let the bank know that they are in violation of their Master Merchant agreement with Visa and if the continue to send transaction into the Visa network they could loose their right to process Visa at that bank and or more possible future fines.. The risk people at the are going to say wait we have a merchant that could cause us to Loose our ability to process Visa, and we probably do not have reserves great enough at this point to cover future fines? What do we
do? The bank notifies Glo-bill they can only send transaction from webmasters in Germany or they will close their account.

Remember this is their bat, their ball, and their field, and their rules.

Now of course Glo-bill is going to try and appeal these fines, This is where the part about their umpire comes in. The answer from Visa is going to be to bad you broke the rules. Glo-bill will then be left with going to court, now in a forgein country, trying to convince a Judge that they should over rule Visas rules for a porn company that is trying to bypass their rules. Sure this will happen

For the people that claim this is only spin. Do you really think that all three of the largest billing companies did not have a larger army of lawyers work with Visa to find a way around these rules and only Glo-bill was able to find the path.

At the end of the day, it may have been just as simple as Visa will pick up the phone, call this new bank that Glo-bill just started a relationship with and say "We would like for you to discontinue doing this" End of conversation, since banks treat a call from Visa like the IRS. YES, Sir, Thank You Sir, We will do that Now Sir.

The reality is lots of new little companies will pop up, making all kinds of claims, Visa will handle them just like they do Bestiality, Lolita, etc.. They will close one down, and another will pop up. The webmaster that is promoting some content that is not except like Bestiality may not care that they lost their rebills, and call that a cost of business. The legit webmaster on the other hand may get thrown out with the rest and loose 60% of their money from their rebills

My Guess is that Glo-bill after talking to their banks further will realize that they were just mis-informed

Ron C
CEO, CCBILL.com

BVF · 10-03-2002, 09:26 AM

...I had these concerns too. But this is Globill we're talking about. Not some fly by night operator. If it was anybody else, I wouldn't believe it. But you have to give globill some credibility. I've never heard of them doing anything stupid.

BVF · 10-03-2002, 09:29 AM

..........

Zebra · 10-03-2002, 09:35 AM

Zebra grabs another bag of popcorn and sits back to watch the show

Better than watching CNN!

CoolE · 10-03-2002, 09:36 AM

I really feel for the small and new international websites who do not have the $$$ and resources to establish themselves in the US and who do not have a "high-risk friendly" IPSP in their country. The options are getting less and less for these poor souls if Globill is out. I see only 2 options left: 1. Stop accepting Visa cards. 2. Shutdown/sell out.

I never in a million years would have predicted that in 2002 a person in Canada could not start a new internet porn site and accept Visa cards. Unbelievable.

A-sh-c-r-oft will be thrilled. Most of the world's porn sites sitting right there in Nevada ready for him to demolish one by one.

Jizar II · 10-03-2002, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zebra
Zebra grabs another bag of popcorn and sits back to watch the show

Better than watching CNN!

I feel like grabbing some Fontex instead

jimmyf · 10-03-2002, 09:38 AM

I'm not a paysite owner..but I would really listen to what RonC is telling you people...

Kimmykim · 10-03-2002, 09:41 AM

I am amazed at the Chicken Little attitudes here. If you don't have the money to operate a paysite, either because you cannot pay the 750 or you cannot incorporate in a place that has such processing, take your sites, make them premium avs and keep cashing your checks.

What is so hard about this?

Unless you have ever lost a merchant account, then you should have nothing to worry about, other than the paperwork.

the indigo · 10-03-2002, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim
I am amazed at the Chicken Little attitudes here. If you don't have the money to operate a paysite, either because you cannot pay the 750 or you cannot incorporate in a place that has such processing, take your sites, make them premium avs and keep cashing your checks.

What is so hard about this?

Unless you have ever lost a merchant account, then you should have nothing to worry about, other than the paperwork.

Shut up.

AVS is nothing like a processing a full paysite. I don't want to market a thing everyone else will also push. Diversity and originality is the key word to do business in 2002, other than marry a Bradshow who thinks he's da man when he started in '96. Fuck off.

CoolE · 10-03-2002, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim
I am amazed at the Chicken Little attitudes here. If you don't have the money to operate a paysite, either because you cannot pay the 750 or you cannot incorporate in a place that has such processing, take your sites, make them premium avs and keep cashing your checks.

What is so hard about this?

Unless you have ever lost a merchant account, then you should have nothing to worry about, other than the paperwork.

You are vastly understating the $$$, and legal implications this has for some non-US websites KK.

I've probably spent $750 already on legal fees just trying to educate myself on what this means to my business.

You are looking at it from the standpoint of a US webmaster, not an international one.

Today I run my business from a country that has no equivalent of your "material harmful to minors" laws. In less than 6 weeks I will own a porn company in a country in which having oral sex in the privacy of your own bedroom is illegal in many jurisdictions.

HeadPimp · 10-03-2002, 09:50 AM

I think for me it is just a major annoyance. I get a paysite that is just now really worth the effort, and here is Visa saying that they need a bigger cut. If these were mob guys I would be having a hit put out on them (no kidding) but they are the all mighty god Visa and nothing can be done. They have a ruling hand in the country and the people are not going to revolt, so I pay my $750 in extortion, grumble and keep going.

Web girl · 10-03-2002, 10:00 AM

I'm not a paysite owner..but I would really listen to what RonC is telling you people...

Is RonC aware that this event is quite possibly going to wipe out an entire community? The amateurs have made such a contribution to the growth of the adult internet and forgive me for being so, "mom and pop" but when Ifriends started banning all of their top girls we responded by building our own sites. We contacted CCBill and brought our following to the table with us. I may be wrong, but I have not seen any options available at CCBill that would help preserve the amateur community.

While we may not generate as much revenue as the pro adult sites we certainly have generated our fair share. Would CCBill like us to close our accounts and only accept E-check payments through PayPal? PayPal now offers htaccess. Yes, I realise what a foolish comment that is, but $750 by October 15th? Wheres the love? lol

Brad Mitchell · 10-03-2002, 10:11 AM

If you're not listening to Ron, you'll regret it. He knows what he is talking about.

Brad

Fletch XXX · 10-03-2002, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RonC

To understand Visa you must first forget your common sense, and sense of fair play.

Hell that could be said for just *OWNING* a VISA card.

heheh

RonC · 10-03-2002, 10:15 AM

Web Girl

We at CCbill really care about our webmasters. This is why we did not release this information months ago with only half the answers. We are still working with Visa on a possible solution for small webmasters such as your self. We hope to have complete details in the next couple of weeks. Please say in contact with your account rep at CCbill

Just so you know the Sales reps have not been informed of this information yet, so their is no need to call

Kimmykim · 10-03-2002, 10:23 AM

CoolE -- no one is saying you HAVE to incorporate in the US. I am quite sure there will be (we actually have one if you need a name) third party processors in other countries, as well as the fact that I am sure some of the third parties will offer options in other regions PROVIDED that Visa will allow it.

Visa has many regions, and no one is saying that you are forced to choose the US.

I realize that as a US entity it's not a big thing for us, though we are facing the same situation with our European third party processor, in that we either incorporate over there or lose their ability to process for us.

In any business where there is an inherent chance of making very much off investing very little, there is also the opposite chance.

flyingco · 10-03-2002, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RonC

This is how the scenario will play out. Glo-bill is most likely going to try to say they are just the merchant, and they just pay a referral fee to webmasters for sending transactions.
lets say for simple math that 100 customers leave CCbill, Ibill and Epoch to go over to Glo-bill thinking the grass is greener on that side. They will pay the $750 to the current processor since
the recurring transactions are worth more than $750 per year and do not want to loose that income. CCbill, Ibill, or Paycom report that customers name and urls as a U.S. webmaster and are able to process it with no problem.
The end of the first month comes and Glo-bills new bank (lets say in Germany) gets a notice from Visa. The notice will say that they are currently in violation of section XXX. of their Visa operating agreement and
are introducing non coded High Risk IPSP transaction into the Visa system. You currently have 100 Sponsored merchants that are in violation of the cross boarder rules. The fine for this is $25,000 per Webmaster
or $2.5 million fine. (Guess webmaster are not getting checks this week) The bank will say wait a minute, we are not going to pay this, they will due what all banks do, they will pass this down to the merchant (Glo-bill). Visa will also let the bank know that they are in violation of their Master Merchant agreement with Visa and if the continue to send transaction into the Visa network they could loose their right to process Visa at that bank and or more possible future fines.. The risk people at the are going to say wait we have a merchant that could cause us to Loose our ability to process Visa, and we probably do not have reserves great enough at this point to cover future fines? What do we
do? The bank notifies Glo-bill they can only send transaction from webmasters in Germany or they will close their account.

Remember this is their bat, their ball, and their field, and their rules.

Now of course Glo-bill is going to try and appeal these fines, This is where the part about their umpire comes in. The answer from Visa is going to be to bad you broke the rules. Glo-bill will then be left with going to court, now in a forgein country, trying to convince a Judge that they should over rule Visas rules for a porn company that is trying to bypass their rules. Sure this will happen

For the people that claim this is only spin. Do you really think that all three of the largest billing companies did not have a larger army of lawyers work with Visa to find a way around these rules and only Glo-bill was able to find the path.

At the end of the day, it may have been just as simple as Visa will pick up the phone, call this new bank that Glo-bill just started a relationship with and say "We would like for you to discontinue doing this" End of conversation, since banks treat a call from Visa like the IRS. YES, Sir, Thank You Sir, We will do that Now Sir.

The reality is lots of new little companies will pop up, making all kinds of claims, Visa will handle them just like they do Bestiality, Lolita, etc.. They will close one down, and another will pop up. The webmaster that is promoting some content that is not except like Bestiality may not care that they lost their rebills, and call that a cost of business. The legit webmaster on the other hand may get thrown out with the rest and loose 60% of their money from their rebills

Ron C
CEO, CCBILL.com [/B]

Ron,
I may not know you personally, but I have seen CCBill come a long way since you started.

But I will say that it would rather be you who may have overlooked a few things.
Firstly, CCBill and the top 3 leading are NOT the TOP 3rd Party Processors. You forget your domain also overlaps Digital River, though Digital River and all the rest of the shareware industry player also face the same problems. So maybe you might want to stop thinking that CCBill is HUGE, yes it is huge but NOT the top. ;)
I also wish to refute the above scenario. Visa and MC are consortiums of banks that subscribe to the VISA and MC network. There is a Visa Germany, there is also a Visa Australia, Visa USA and Visa England. To state that all the VISA accepted the PROPOSAL is out there.....there WILL AND ALWAYS WILL BE countries that fall outside this domain.
Perfect example, the CVC2 and the CVV. Why is it countries like Visa China for example or Visa Taiwan still NOT issue cards with CVV or CVC?

The reason is SIMPLE, because NOT all the Banks that make up that country subscribe to that NOTION and there NEVER WILL. I know because I used to run a third party company which later was sold to another company, so this debate is really interesting for me.

You know for a fact and lets put it this way, Visa and MC have their weakness when it comes to e-commerce, hence the number of chargebacks. Visa International could easily put THIRD PARTY CREDIT CARD DETECTION SYSTEMS OUT OF WORK, by insisting that all CARDS MUST HAVE CCV and CVV issued. Yes or no? We both know the answer is YES!

So the same thing goes, and I am NOT trying to pour cold water over your company and your VIEWS, BUT IT IS POSSIBLE given the above example I just quoted that VISA INTERNATIONAL cannot control all the banks.

There are over 2,500 BANKS that have SEATS on VISA. You think VISA INTERNATIONAL will back VISA USA? Geez, VISA USA is ONLY PART OF VISA INTERNATIONAL and it has ONE VOTE vs the rest of the WORLD.

And yes, I feel your pain as a previous owner of a third party credit card company, but lets put it this way, if I were to start off as an international person selling shareware or porn, I NOW NO LONGER see a reason to use a third party to deal with it. Why should I? I can easily hire a US front to front the COMPANY and pay cheaper merchant rates. That is just my two cents worth. Let me know if you disagree with this post. I love to talk to you about this.

-Nato

rdunn404 · 10-03-2002, 10:34 AM

Ok but please explain to me what the advantage is of me staying with CCBill now (besides lost rebills)? I mean now it seems like I'll be running a pseudo-merchant account. If I get high chargebacks with it, I'm fucked. Just like if I had a merchant account. And the startup fees are about the same. I have very low chargebacks for my site, so why shouldn't I just pay about $500 for a merchant account that takes only about 3-5% of my $$ instead of the 900lb gorillas taking 12-15% plus reserves. I think that since the main advantages of using 3rd party billing are now lost, CCBill's fee should go down.

flyingco · 10-03-2002, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rdunn404
Ok but please explain to me what the advantage is of me staying with CCBill now (besides lost rebills)? I mean now it seems like I'll be running a pseudo-merchant account. If I get high chargebacks with it, I'm fucked. Just like if I had a merchant account. And the startup fees are about the same. I have very low chargebacks for my site, so why shouldn't I just pay about $500 for a merchant account that takes only about 3-5% of my $$ instead of the 900lb gorillas taking 12-15% plus reserves. I think that since the main advantages of using 3rd party billing are now lost, CCBill's fee should go down.

There is NOW with the NEW REGULATION almost no advantage to using a third party except for fraud screening; which can be easily gotten by a third party fraud detection system such as cybersource.

Ok, here is how I look at it.

Let's say I am a shareware author (which in reality is a lot like a porn site) and I am LOCATED outside of the US. I have just written a NIFTY little program just like Winzip and the world is going to flood to my doors to buy it.

Now, what I would do would be to go to places like RegShare.com or Regnow.com or even DigitalRiver.com and sign up as a vendor.

Why would I do it. Although I feel that I have written a very good piece of software, I will NEVER know if I can sell it. So why add additional cost to getting a merchant account, getting a company set up etc? So the main advantage would be to use a third party who just sends me my check at the end of the billing period minus whatever rolling funds, fees, chargeback fees etc and processing fees.

Now, with the regulations going to take place, all the above advantages are LOST.

If you are US based, why shouldn't you get a merchant account? Unless you have a bad credit history in which case you are going to be DENIED anyways.

If you are OVERSEAS based, you are out there, tough luck.

If the ONLY VALUE ADD CCBill will do is FRAUD SCREENING and handling your ECOMMERCE administration, you might be better off just going out and getting your CC merchant account and outsource to anacom.com or Cybersource or even EFalcon.

Either way, Ron C. has his hands full and I don't want to rain on his parade but I do feel for him and CCBill with this new regulation. But like I said, there is a way, and that way will be to go OFFSHORE.

-Nato

eblastics · 10-03-2002, 10:56 AM

Ron, how are sites/companies with their own merchant accounts affected by this? What steps, if any, will they have to take?
For instance, I'm sure CCBILL processes for some clients that have their own merchant accounts rather than piggy backing on yours. What position are they in?

bellskids · 10-03-2002, 11:01 AM

Theres one thing I dont understand about all this and im not sure if anyone has mentioned it yet. IF this is truly a decision by the whole of VISA, all regions etc. Why the hell is it required for everyone to register a US based company?

Web girl · 10-03-2002, 11:01 AM

This has been my correspondence with Glo-Bill..

From: Chianti
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 7:19 AM
Subject: "Bucking recent trends" Visa Regulations

Hi,
You are currently advertising that you are not
subjecting your webmasters any set-up, monthly or
annual fees! No complicated registration forms. No
reporting of your private information to outside
sources! Many billing companies on the net now charge
$500, $750 even $1,000 to set up your site with their
system... of course, this interests me as a smaller
'amateur' site.

My question is, if your service should change subject
to any current or pending set of guidelines issued by
any of the major credit card carriers will your policy
of not subjecting webmasters to the above listed
charges or fees change... Will you continue to offer
service based on the premise that you only charge site
owners the standard transaction fees?

Also, I noticed that your transaction fees are
considerably higher than the other 3rd party
processors. Are these transation fees subject to
change or increase and if so how much?

Chianti
http://www.misschianti.com
-------------------------------------------------------

Hello,

We do not fall under the new regulations that
you are referring to. While we will not divulge the full details on our
strategies for obvious reasons, we will say that we saw the writing on the
wall many months ago and started taking proactive measures since then to
protect our clients' businesses to the best of our ability. The bottom
line:
it is business as usual at Glo-Bill.com, meaning:
- No set-up fees
- No monthly or annual fees
- No reporting of your private information to any outside entity
- Websites from foreign countries welcome as always without special
requirements
- No Big Brother style registration forms and no scrutiny of your website
by other entities
- We help you maintain your chargebacks at very low levels WITHOUT
blindly

More details can be found at: http://www.globill-systems.com/details.html
or
visit our discussion boards to see what people are saying about it.

To sign up for an account (completely free) please visit:
http://www.globill-systems.com/cgi-b...unction=signup
If you have any more questions, comments or concerns please let us know.

Please let me know if there is anything further I can assist you with.

Regards,
Mark
Glo-Bill.com

A.Martin · 10-03-2002, 11:03 AM

I have started a new thread with our official response to CCBill.

Paolo · 10-03-2002, 12:44 PM

Fyimgco

I have your answer.

CCbill offers tons of other services such like customer support.
witch I rate at 100%.

For big webmasters also who like to keep there operations down, it is well worth the the small fees to have 24 hours of quality support.

Ever try contacting a programmer to solve a problem at 2 in the morning when your down. Good luck!

So for small webmasters expecially. It is worth haveing an experience company like CCbill doing your transaction.

flyingco · 10-03-2002, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paolo
Fyimgco

I have your answer.

CCbill offers tons of other services such like customer support.
witch I rate at 100%.

For big webmasters also who like to keep there operations down, it is well worth the the small fees to have 24 hours of quality support.

Ever try contacting a programmer to solve a problem at 2 in the morning when your down. Good luck!

So for small webmasters expecially. It is worth haveing an experience company like CCbill doing your transaction.

No, I don't have a problem contacting a programmer at 2 in the morning. ;) But then again, I had my system monitored around the clock by not one programmer but a team of 8 then. ;)

You are paying NOW too much. Let's do some math.

lets say you do 100k a month in transactions, CCBill takes 15% lets say......You are out 15k
Minus their transaction fees of 4.5% if it was Amex Corporate
highest level out there.

Now, they profit 10k.

For 10k right now, I can get a team of 4 developers to solve your issues for you plus a CALL CENTER to handle your problems no problem and still come out smelling like a fish with profits.

-Nato

BethWebmaster · 10-03-2002, 12:58 PM

From a British perspective

Beth & I run a reasonably succesful UK website. The problems we have in relation to the "National Territory" issue is that there are NO British aggregators like CCBill, IBill or Verotel, (Dutch company). The option of a Merchant Account is likewise not open to us, since NO british bank will accept adult credit card transactions, as far as I am aware.

So, British websites are completely screwed by this and will have to set up entities in other countries or use the AVS option.

The $750 charge doesn't bother me. It's small percentage of our turn over and as I understand the rules it relates to the company not to URLS so I can put as many urls through the entity as I like for one charge.

I sympathise greatly with CCBill and IBill. To some extent I also understand Visa and their desire, presumably, to create a "more orderly market" in the adult business. The web adult business is maturing and costs and regulations such as these are common problems for other industries.

But for the life of me, I can't understand why Visa take such a hard faced attitude to it when it must be costing them a lot of transactions. Adult content has driven the internet. Words like "goose", "golden egg" and "kill" come to mind.

Ah well, Nevada here I come.

Cheers

Tom

Kimmykim · 10-03-2002, 01:08 PM

sorry nato, you are wrong. This is not simply Visa USA making the rules, as we have discussed with a Euro third party provider we use. If we do not incorporate an additional company in Germany we will lose the use of their services for the cards we push to them.

And no one is saying you have to be a US company. CCBill, etc are saying to continue with them you have to be.

If you choose to use another processor located elsewhere you have the same obligations, just in a different country as we are being told by non US companies.

flyingco · 10-03-2002, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim
sorry nato, you are wrong. This is not simply Visa USA making the rules, as we have discussed with a Euro third party provider we use. If we do not incorporate an additional company in Germany we will lose the use of their services for the cards we push to them.

And no one is saying you have to be a US company. CCBill, etc are saying to continue with them you have to be.

If you choose to use another processor located elsewhere you have the same obligations, just in a different country as we are being told by non US companies.

Kimmy, I hold your company with deep respect, but I beg to differ on this issue because of my past experiences. ;) Maybe i am wrong but then I will state again my arguements.

Just like you are basing the following: "we have discussed with a Euro Third Party provider we use", so you are going on that assumption.

Have you talked to any one outside the Euro and the US about this? Or are you just basing your arguement that? What happens if I am able to locate a third party in Asia that is able to do that and is not tied to the ruling? I am sure I could find one.

-Nato

flyingco · 10-03-2002, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim
sorry nato, you are wrong. This is not simply Visa USA making the rules, as we have discussed with a Euro third party provider we use. If we do not incorporate an additional company in Germany we will lose the use of their services for the cards we push to them.

And no one is saying you have to be a US company. CCBill, etc are saying to continue with them you have to be.

If you choose to use another processor located elsewhere you have the same obligations, just in a different country as we are being told by non US companies.

The MOST SIMILIAR INDUSTRY to the BIG 5 right now is Digital River, Cybersource model. They have a way around it. You guys haven't found it yet. Speak to them.

-Nato

49thParallel · 10-03-2002, 01:29 PM

I also don't go by the CCBILL must do this, so GLOBILL will need to follow. It is entirely possible and probable that VISA will set up different rules for different regions. A good example would be here in Canada. VISA & Mastercard have completely different regulations for Quebec then they do for the rest of the country. (As do Insurance agencies, lotteries, warrenty fullfillment...) VISA had to make a choice...follow the unique legislation of the province of Quebec or lose the revenue. This same type of situation could easily play out on foreign shores.

Darren · 04-06-2003, 06:25 AM

CCBILL and PSW offer processing with NO $750 fee becasue they have banks in many countries, Globill just sorted this b4

wimpy · 04-06-2003, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RonC
Do you really think that all three of the largest billing companies did not have a larger army of lawyers work with Visa to find a way around these rules and only Glo-bill was able to find the path.

Ron C
CEO, CCBILL.com

that's a powerful arguement, Ron, but it's it also true that the actual Visa fees were only $650 or so, but that the big three decided to charge us all $750, thus making a tidy profit off this shit?

That seriously damages your credibility.

Ludedude · 04-06-2003, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wimpy

that's a powerful arguement, Ron, but it's it also true that the actual Visa fees were only $650 or so, but that the big three decided to charge us all $750, thus making a tidy profit off this shit?

That seriously damages your credibility.

Nope, the actual fees were only $500. Oh wait, that makes it worse doesn't it?

SomeCreep · 04-06-2003, 07:23 AM

Okay, the $750 fee is not fair, big deal, life is not fair, get used to it.

Pay it and make what you can back from new subscriptions.

BigFrog · 04-06-2003, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SomeCreep
Okay, the $750 fee is not fair, big deal, life is not fair, get used to it.

Pay it and make what you can back from new subscriptions.

why should i?

thank you globill

rowan · 04-06-2003, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darren
CCBILL and PSW offer processing with NO $750 fee becasue they have banks in many countries, Globill just sorted this b4

Unfortunately, the 'many countries' doesn't include Australia.

Neither ccbill or PSW can process Visa for me.

directfiesta · 04-06-2003, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SomeCreep
Okay, the $750 fee is not fair, big deal, life is not fair, get used to it.

Pay it and make what you can back from new subscriptions.

Obviously, you don't own and operate paysites. ..

I operate 3 , each with multiple processors . so guys like you can get their % .

So the cost is : x processors x 750 .00 !st year
x processors x 500.00 subsequent years

I expect that mastercard will jump on the money wagon soon too. I would not be surprised also that Visa comes with the fee per URL as a second step... ( they got away with the first step).

As a Canadian, I also had to setup a US presence and maintain it : that is not free... plus the tax implementation of 2 countries.

So your regurgitated answer just shows your lack of presence in this industry ...

Go get free hosted galleries to submit after your shoe salesman job....

Ian · 04-06-2003, 09:03 AM

Let's not forget that at least CCBill is paying us back the $750 for the Visa fees out of their %. IBill isn't.

PornBroker · 04-06-2003, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by directfiesta
So your regurgitated answer just shows your lack of presence in this industry ...

word

besterman · 04-06-2003, 09:38 AM

I have a simple question:

Can a company incorporated in the Bahamas process through CCBILL without having to own a U.S. subsidiary?

Thanks.

PornBroker · 04-06-2003, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by scorpion3600
I have a simple question:

Can a company incorporated in the Bahamas process through CCBILL without having to own a U.S. subsidiary?

Thanks.

no. would still be cross border.

besterman · 04-06-2003, 10:24 AM

damn, the ideal situation would be to be able to process with CCBILL offshore for various reasons, one of them of course being better tax dynamics, it seems kind of limited that one has to have a U.S. presence to do business with them...

chupacabra · 04-06-2003, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Let's not forget that at least CCBill is paying us back the $750 for the Visa fees out of their %. IBill isn't.

yes, and they were true to their word about it... doesn't matter if the fee was actually $100 or $750, ccBill refunded every dime of it back to us regardless..

dieselaction · 07-25-2003, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by uproared
I was just doing a search and found this thread.

Well - Glo-bill are still alive and kicking - what happened to your prediction Ron?

Cheers

cherrylula · 07-25-2003, 01:38 PM

I hear globill is now taking 100%

DrGuile · 07-25-2003, 01:38 PM

Oh the irony...

Kimmykim · 07-25-2003, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DrGuile
Oh the irony...

So true.

Rick Latona · 07-25-2003, 01:52 PM

wrong thread!

dieselaction · 07-25-2003, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rick Latona
I for one would like to thank Ron C for taking the time out of his busy schedule to come in here and talk about this. We can all speculate but we aren't in the trenches fighting this war.

wake up

p00p · 07-25-2003, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rick Latona
I for one would like to thank Ron C for taking the time out of his busy schedule to come in here and talk about this. We can all speculate but we aren't in the trenches fighting this war.

You should have thanked him last year when he typed it.

10-03-2002

10-03-2002, 09:21 AM	#1
RonC Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 236	CCbill Response regarding Glo-bill We have been asked over and over to explain why we think Glo-bill will not be able to avoid the new regulations by moving offshore, and will Visa shut them down. First off let me say I have only positive things to say about Glo-bill. I have never heard anything negative. I do not think that they have any bad intentions, just mis-information To understand Visa you must first forget your common sense, and sense of fair play. The best way to understand them is to think of it this way. It is their bat, their ball, their field, and most important their umpire, and did I forget to say they get to changes the rules during the middle of the game. This is how the scenario will play out. Glo-bill is most likely going to try to say they are just the merchant, and they just pay a referral fee to webmasters for sending transactions. lets say for simple math that 100 customers leave CCbill, Ibill and Epoch to go over to Glo-bill thinking the grass is greener on that side. They will pay the $750 to the current processor since the recurring transactions are worth more than $750 per year and do not want to loose that income. CCbill, Ibill, or Paycom report that customers name and urls as a U.S. webmaster and are able to process it with no problem. The end of the first month comes and Glo-bills new bank (lets say in Germany) gets a notice from Visa. The notice will say that they are currently in violation of section XXX. of their Visa operating agreement and are introducing non coded High Risk IPSP transaction into the Visa system. You currently have 100 Sponsored merchants that are in violation of the cross boarder rules. The fine for this is $25,000 per Webmaster or $2.5 million fine. (Guess webmaster are not getting checks this week) The bank will say wait a minute, we are not going to pay this, they will due what all banks do, they will pass this down to the merchant (Glo-bill). Visa will also let the bank know that they are in violation of their Master Merchant agreement with Visa and if the continue to send transaction into the Visa network they could loose their right to process Visa at that bank and or more possible future fines.. The risk people at the are going to say wait we have a merchant that could cause us to Loose our ability to process Visa, and we probably do not have reserves great enough at this point to cover future fines? What do we do? The bank notifies Glo-bill they can only send transaction from webmasters in Germany or they will close their account. Remember this is their bat, their ball, and their field, and their rules. Now of course Glo-bill is going to try and appeal these fines, This is where the part about their umpire comes in. The answer from Visa is going to be to bad you broke the rules. Glo-bill will then be left with going to court, now in a forgein country, trying to convince a Judge that they should over rule Visas rules for a porn company that is trying to bypass their rules. Sure this will happen For the people that claim this is only spin. Do you really think that all three of the largest billing companies did not have a larger army of lawyers work with Visa to find a way around these rules and only Glo-bill was able to find the path. At the end of the day, it may have been just as simple as Visa will pick up the phone, call this new bank that Glo-bill just started a relationship with and say "We would like for you to discontinue doing this" End of conversation, since banks treat a call from Visa like the IRS. YES, Sir, Thank You Sir, We will do that Now Sir. The reality is lots of new little companies will pop up, making all kinds of claims, Visa will handle them just like they do Bestiality, Lolita, etc.. They will close one down, and another will pop up. The webmaster that is promoting some content that is not except like Bestiality may not care that they lost their rebills, and call that a cost of business. The legit webmaster on the other hand may get thrown out with the rest and loose 60% of their money from their rebills My Guess is that Glo-bill after talking to their banks further will realize that they were just mis-informed Ron C CEO, CCBILL.com

10-03-2002, 09:26 AM	#2
BVF Black Vagina Finder Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Midwest Posts: 13,975	...I had these concerns too. But this is Globill we're talking about. Not some fly by night operator. If it was anybody else, I wouldn't believe it. But you have to give globill some credibility. I've never heard of them doing anything stupid. __________________ Black Pussy Click On Mr Cosby..CCbill, 60/40, 136 FHG's....The Cos Loves Black Ghetto Pussy!! Last edited by BVF; 10-03-2002 at 09:27 AM..

10-03-2002, 09:29 AM	#3
BVF Black Vagina Finder Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Midwest Posts: 13,975	.......... __________________ Black Pussy Click On Mr Cosby..CCbill, 60/40, 136 FHG's....The Cos Loves Black Ghetto Pussy!! Last edited by BVF; 10-03-2002 at 09:32 AM..

10-03-2002, 09:35 AM	#4
Zebra Banned from Kimmy's couch Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Down at Fraggle Rock Posts: 5,091	Zebra grabs another bag of popcorn and sits back to watch the show Better than watching CNN! __________________ Old School

10-03-2002, 09:36 AM	#5
CoolE Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 451	I really feel for the small and new international websites who do not have the $$$ and resources to establish themselves in the US and who do not have a "high-risk friendly" IPSP in their country. The options are getting less and less for these poor souls if Globill is out. I see only 2 options left: 1. Stop accepting Visa cards. 2. Shutdown/sell out. I never in a million years would have predicted that in 2002 a person in Canada could not start a new internet porn site and accept Visa cards. Unbelievable. A-sh-c-r-oft will be thrilled. Most of the world's porn sites sitting right there in Nevada ready for him to demolish one by one. Last edited by CoolE; 10-03-2002 at 09:39 AM..

10-03-2002, 09:38 AM	#7
jimmyf OU812 Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: California Posts: 12,651	I'm not a paysite owner..but I would really listen to what RonC is telling you people... __________________ Epic CashEpic Cash works for me Solar Cash Paysite Plugin Gallery of the day freesites,POTD,Gallery generator with free hosting

10-03-2002, 09:41 AM	#8
Kimmykim bitchslapping zebras!!!!! Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: In a shack by the beach Posts: 16,015	I am amazed at the Chicken Little attitudes here. If you don't have the money to operate a paysite, either because you cannot pay the 750 or you cannot incorporate in a place that has such processing, take your sites, make them premium avs and keep cashing your checks. What is so hard about this? Unless you have ever lost a merchant account, then you should have nothing to worry about, other than the paperwork.

10-03-2002, 09:50 AM	#11
HeadPimp Bad Mo-Fo Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 2,772	I think for me it is just a major annoyance. I get a paysite that is just now really worth the effort, and here is Visa saying that they need a bigger cut. If these were mob guys I would be having a hit put out on them (no kidding) but they are the all mighty god Visa and nothing can be done. They have a ruling hand in the country and the people are not going to revolt, so I pay my $750 in extortion, grumble and keep going.

10-03-2002, 10:00 AM	#12
Web girl Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 34	I'm not a paysite owner..but I would really listen to what RonC is telling you people... Is RonC aware that this event is quite possibly going to wipe out an entire community? The amateurs have made such a contribution to the growth of the adult internet and forgive me for being so, "mom and pop" but when Ifriends started banning all of their top girls we responded by building our own sites. We contacted CCBill and brought our following to the table with us. I may be wrong, but I have not seen any options available at CCBill that would help preserve the amateur community. While we may not generate as much revenue as the pro adult sites we certainly have generated our fair share. Would CCBill like us to close our accounts and only accept E-check payments through PayPal? PayPal now offers htaccess. Yes, I realise what a foolish comment that is, but $750 by October 15th? Wheres the love? lol

10-03-2002, 10:11 AM	#13
Brad Mitchell Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Southfield, MI Posts: 9,812	If you're not listening to Ron, you'll regret it. He knows what he is talking about. Brad __________________ President at MojoHost \| brad at mojohost dot com \| Skype MojoHostBrad 71 industry awards for hosting and professional excellence since 1999

10-03-2002, 10:15 AM	#15
RonC Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 236	Web Girl We at CCbill really care about our webmasters. This is why we did not release this information months ago with only half the answers. We are still working with Visa on a possible solution for small webmasters such as your self. We hope to have complete details in the next couple of weeks. Please say in contact with your account rep at CCbill Just so you know the Sales reps have not been informed of this information yet, so their is no need to call

10-03-2002, 10:23 AM	#16
Kimmykim bitchslapping zebras!!!!! Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: In a shack by the beach Posts: 16,015	CoolE -- no one is saying you HAVE to incorporate in the US. I am quite sure there will be (we actually have one if you need a name) third party processors in other countries, as well as the fact that I am sure some of the third parties will offer options in other regions PROVIDED that Visa will allow it. Visa has many regions, and no one is saying that you are forced to choose the US. I realize that as a US entity it's not a big thing for us, though we are facing the same situation with our European third party processor, in that we either incorporate over there or lose their ability to process for us. In any business where there is an inherent chance of making very much off investing very little, there is also the opposite chance.

10-03-2002, 10:34 AM	#18
rdunn404 Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 999	Ok but please explain to me what the advantage is of me staying with CCBill now (besides lost rebills)? I mean now it seems like I'll be running a pseudo-merchant account. If I get high chargebacks with it, I'm fucked. Just like if I had a merchant account. And the startup fees are about the same. I have very low chargebacks for my site, so why shouldn't I just pay about $500 for a merchant account that takes only about 3-5% of my $$ instead of the 900lb gorillas taking 12-15% plus reserves. I think that since the main advantages of using 3rd party billing are now lost, CCBill's fee should go down.

10-03-2002, 10:56 AM	#20
eblastics Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 41	Ron, how are sites/companies with their own merchant accounts affected by this? What steps, if any, will they have to take? For instance, I'm sure CCBILL processes for some clients that have their own merchant accounts rather than piggy backing on yours. What position are they in?

10-03-2002, 11:01 AM	#21
bellskids Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 558	Theres one thing I dont understand about all this and im not sure if anyone has mentioned it yet. IF this is truly a decision by the whole of VISA, all regions etc. Why the hell is it required for everyone to register a US based company?

10-03-2002, 11:03 AM	#23
A.Martin Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Walnut Creek, CA Posts: 22	I have started a new thread with our official response to CCBill. __________________ A. Martin Vice President - Operations www.Glo-Bill.com

10-03-2002, 12:44 PM	#24
Paolo Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Henderson, Nevada Posts: 491	Fyimgco I have your answer. CCbill offers tons of other services such like customer support. witch I rate at 100%. For big webmasters also who like to keep there operations down, it is well worth the the small fees to have 24 hours of quality support. Ever try contacting a programmer to solve a problem at 2 in the morning when your down. Good luck! So for small webmasters expecially. It is worth haveing an experience company like CCbill doing your transaction. __________________ [

10-03-2002, 12:58 PM	#26
BethWebmaster Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: UK Posts: 1	From a British perspective Beth & I run a reasonably succesful UK website. The problems we have in relation to the "National Territory" issue is that there are NO British aggregators like CCBill, IBill or Verotel, (Dutch company). The option of a Merchant Account is likewise not open to us, since NO british bank will accept adult credit card transactions, as far as I am aware. So, British websites are completely screwed by this and will have to set up entities in other countries or use the AVS option. The $750 charge doesn't bother me. It's small percentage of our turn over and as I understand the rules it relates to the company not to URLS so I can put as many urls through the entity as I like for one charge. I sympathise greatly with CCBill and IBill. To some extent I also understand Visa and their desire, presumably, to create a "more orderly market" in the adult business. The web adult business is maturing and costs and regulations such as these are common problems for other industries. But for the life of me, I can't understand why Visa take such a hard faced attitude to it when it must be costing them a lot of transactions. Adult content has driven the internet. Words like "goose", "golden egg" and "kill" come to mind. Ah well, Nevada here I come. Cheers Tom

10-03-2002, 01:08 PM	#27
Kimmykim bitchslapping zebras!!!!! Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: In a shack by the beach Posts: 16,015	sorry nato, you are wrong. This is not simply Visa USA making the rules, as we have discussed with a Euro third party provider we use. If we do not incorporate an additional company in Germany we will lose the use of their services for the cards we push to them. And no one is saying you have to be a US company. CCBill, etc are saying to continue with them you have to be. If you choose to use another processor located elsewhere you have the same obligations, just in a different country as we are being told by non US companies.

10-03-2002, 01:29 PM	#30
49thParallel So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,197	I also don't go by the CCBILL must do this, so GLOBILL will need to follow. It is entirely possible and probable that VISA will set up different rules for different regions. A good example would be here in Canada. VISA & Mastercard have completely different regulations for Quebec then they do for the rest of the country. (As do Insurance agencies, lotteries, warrenty fullfillment...) VISA had to make a choice...follow the unique legislation of the province of Quebec or lose the revenue. This same type of situation could easily play out on foreign shores.

04-06-2003, 06:25 AM	#31
Darren Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,994	CCBILL and PSW offer processing with NO $750 fee becasue they have banks in many countries, Globill just sorted this b4 __________________ Penis enlargement / male enhancement pills - earn up to $229.48 per signup ICQ: 46335817

04-06-2003, 07:23 AM	#34
SomeCreep :glugglug Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Where the Wild Things Are Posts: 26,118	Okay, the $750 fee is not fair, big deal, life is not fair, get used to it. Pay it and make what you can back from new subscriptions. __________________ Webair Hosting I use and recommend Webair for hosting.

04-06-2003, 09:03 AM	#38
Ian Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,259	Let's not forget that at least CCBill is paying us back the $750 for the Visa fees out of their %. IBill isn't.

04-06-2003, 09:38 AM	#40
besterman Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 623	I have a simple question: Can a company incorporated in the Bahamas process through CCBILL without having to own a U.S. subsidiary? Thanks.

04-06-2003, 10:24 AM	#42
besterman Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 623	damn, the ideal situation would be to be able to process with CCBILL offshore for various reasons, one of them of course being better tax dynamics, it seems kind of limited that one has to have a U.S. presence to do business with them...

07-25-2003, 01:38 PM	#45
cherrylula lol Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 15,969	I hear globill is now taking 100%

07-25-2003, 01:38 PM	#46
DrGuile Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,025	Oh the irony... __________________ LiveBucks / Privatefeeds - Giving you money since 1999 Up to 50% Commission! 25% Webmaster Referal Powered by Gamma

07-25-2003, 01:52 PM	#48
Rick Latona The Best Ideas Start Here Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Atlanta Posts: 6,037	wrong thread! __________________ Regards, Rick Latona http://latonas.com Latona's - We Sell Money Making Web Properties Note to buyers of websites and traffic: please check our inventory at http://latonas.com/websites-for-sale. If you would like to make an offer on something, just let me know. Last edited by Rick Latona; 07-25-2003 at 01:56 PM..