Can a liberal please help me with this Deem & Pass issue? - GoFuckYourself.com

PornMD · 03-20-2010, 12:27 PM

First off, I'm centrist - honestly hate both of the major parties out there and don't fully fit in with the others either.

I'm honestly confused about this whole Deem & Pass thing. The senate has passed a health care bill. Congress feels that the health care bill is unpopular. They also want to make amendments to make it pass. It sounds like this whole Deem & Pass thing is supposed to ultimately pass an amended bill without a vote, because they're afraid of voting yes on an unpopular item.

But wouldn't the fact that the dems are the party that is pushing Deem & Pass in this case basically paint the entire Dem party as wanting to vote yes on this bill? How does it not do that?

I'm just trying to understand this because it just seems like I have to be missing something here. It seems like the dems are fucked in general due to the focus on this health care bill to begin with as if it'd be simple, when it's not the real issue the average person is faced with anyways, i.e. Bush's Iraq War vs. focusing on finding Osama Bin Laden = Obama's Health Care push vs. fixing the economy and creating jobs. Still though, this Deem & Pass tactic to me would only further fuck the party because it would damage EVERYONE in the party if they truly feel it's an unpopular item.

I can't help but think of most republicans as old curmudgeons (which John McCain, whom I actually DID like in 2000, came off as in his pres running in 2008) so I'm not looking forward to whomever will be undoubtedly taking Obama's position in 2012, but things are not looking good for him or the Dem party right now, so we'll be back to that soon I guess. There needs to be a party that gives a shit about the people that comes into power but that'll never happen.

The Demon · 03-20-2010, 12:38 PM

Ron paul. I would say ask nation-x or kane as they seem to be the only competent non conservatives on this forum.

Vendzilla · 03-20-2010, 12:38 PM

They are hoping that they can sell the health bill to everyone after it passes to keep their jobs

nation-x · 03-20-2010, 01:24 PM

They have decided not to use deem and pass because there is no way to bind the senate to their rule vote. The purpose was to be able to pass the senate bill while tying in the "fixes" so that both things would be passed if the reconciliation bill was passed... the parliamentarian shot that down so now they will have separate votes on the senate bill and on the reconciliation bill. There would have still been 2 votes with deem and pass... the people have been saying their would be no vote were lying... the difference is that if they voted on a deem and pass rule, the vote would have been recorded as a procedural vote instead of a direct vote on the legislation.

Btw... another cute trick that the GOP has pulled here is that they have framed deem and pass as if the dems invented it... reality is that the GOP has used it 202 times since 1996 and even won a ruling in court over the constitutionality of it. They were sued by the dems for using it in 2004 and ended up winning in appeals court.

The Demon · 03-20-2010, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nation-x

Btw... another cute trick that the GOP has pulled here is that they have framed deem and pass as if the dems invented it... reality is that the GOP has used it 202 times since 1996 and even won a ruling in court over the constitutionality of it. They were sued by the dems for using it in 2004 and ended up winning in appeals court.

I don't know if this is accurate. I think they stated that it has never been used to decide such a controversial issue. Also:
http://gopleader.gov/News/DocumentSi...umentID=177260

I think that's one hell of a strategy to be honest.

Also this: https://youtube.com/watch?v=CbHTJSu_2Lk

I think that's funny.

nation-x · 03-20-2010, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon

I don't know if this is accurate. I think they stated that it has never been used to decide such a controversial issue. Also:
http://gopleader.gov/News/DocumentSi...umentID=177260

I think that's one hell of a strategy to be honest.

Also this: https://youtube.com/watch?v=CbHTJSu_2Lk

I think that's funny.

John Boehner is a lying talking-point machine... and you can tell immediately by watching that video that it's a fake. Come on bro... you have to come with something better than that.

Here is the court ruling that the GOP won
http://pacer.cadc.uscourts.gov/docs/...5/06-5232a.pdf

Seriously, both the GOP and The Dems are hypocrites... The GOP has used Reconciliation AND Deem and Pass... AND the dems bitched about it every time they did it but are now willing to use it themselves. Personally, I am willing to give the dems a pass on using it purely because I don't see any good reason why the GOP doesn't deserve to have their own tools used against them... it's a matter of balance. They want to be able to use those procedures but don't like it when they are used against them. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Now... as far as "An issue as big as this"... are you speaking in terms of politics or money? Because if we are talking money... you are wrong. Both reconciliation and deem and pass were used to pass the Bush tax cuts and those cost $2.4 trillion in lost revenue to date... plenty of money to pay for the Medicare prescription bill that was passed unfunded by the Republican Congress.

The Demon · 03-20-2010, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nation-x

John Boehner is a lying talking-point machine... and you can tell immediately by watching that video that it's a fake. Come on bro... you have to come with something better than that.

How is the video a fake? And how is Boehner a lying talking point machine? He's no different than Pelosi or Obama. I was stating that this tactic can prove very effective.

Quote:

Seriously, both the GOP and The Dems are hypocrites... The GOP has used Reconciliation AND Deem and Pass... AND the dems bitched about it every time they did it but are now willing to use it themselves. Personally, I am willing to give the dems a pass on using it purely because I don't see any good reason why the GOP doesn't deserve to have their own tools used against them... it's a matter of balance. They want to be able to use those procedures but don't like it when they are used against them. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Now... as far as "An issue as big as this"... are you speaking in terms of politics or money? Because if we are talking money... you are wrong. Both reconciliation and deem and pass were used to pass the Bush tax cuts and those cost $2.4 trillion in lost revenue to date... plenty of money to pay for the Medicare prescription bill that was passed unfunded by the Republican Congress.

No, I know about the tax cuts, I'm talking about it from a political standpoint.

PornMD · 03-20-2010, 02:07 PM

I fully understood the GOP had used it in the past and more or less WHAT doing it was supposed to accomplish, but I had been reading in places that the strategic reason it was being done was so that none of the Dems would have to directly vote yes on it and suffer backlash from having voted yes on something that was unpopular. Was that correct at least? If so, then I was just curious how it couldn't be seen that with the Dems having pushed this option, from a backlash standpoint that it's effectively all of them voting yes.

Anyways, kind of moot issue now that they're not doing it. I think they made the best choice but was just trying to understand why they were so eager to try that in the first place.

nation-x · 03-20-2010, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon

How is the video a fake?

Watch it... you can tell the words don't even match what he is saying and the overdub is off.

Quote:

And how is Boehner a lying talking point machine? He's no different than Pelosi or Obama. I was stating that this tactic can prove very effective.

Yeah ok... I am not going to waste my time arguing over that... we will never agree on it.

The Demon · 03-20-2010, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nation-x

Watch it... you can tell the words don't even match what he is saying and the overdub is off.

Debatable

Yeah ok... I am not going to waste my time arguing over that... we will never agree on it.[/QUOTE]

Are you saying that Boehner is more of a liar than those two, or that Pelosi and Obama aren't liars? Either way you're looking biased.

Personally, I think Pelosi is more full of shit than any one politician at this point.

smutnut · 03-20-2010, 02:12 PM

Most brilliant use of irony I've ever seen.

Using a book of the bible to point out stupidity and not spelling stupidity correctly just to reinforce the issue pretty much kills at least two birds with one stone

"Book of Revelation chapters 16 to 21 is why Fundamentalist Christians in America support Israel and exactly why we shouldn't support anything to do with this stupdity."

The Demon · 03-20-2010, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smutnut

Most brilliant use of irony I've ever seen.

Using a book of the bible to point out stupidity and not spelling stupidity correctly just to reinforce the issue pretty much kills at least two birds with one stone

"Book of Revelation chapters 16 to 21 is why Fundamentalist Christians in America support Israel and exactly why we shouldn't support anything to do with this stupdity."

hahahaha that's why it's in my quote. His idiocy is limitless.

nation-x · 03-20-2010, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PornMD

I fully understood the GOP had used it in the past and more or less WHAT doing it was supposed to accomplish, but I had been reading in places that the strategic reason it was being done was so that none of the Dems would have to directly vote yes on it and suffer backlash from having voted yes on something that was unpopular. Was that correct at least? If so, then I was just curious how it couldn't be seen that with the Dems having pushed this option, from a backlash standpoint that it's effectively all of them voting yes.

Anyways, kind of moot issue now that they're not doing it. I think they made the best choice but was just trying to understand why they were so eager to try that in the first place.

It depends on who you listen to... of you listen to a "conservative" you will get the negative narrative and the exact opposite from the left. I never heard any democrat saying that the use of deem and pass was to avoid the vote... that all came from the right-wing. I heard dems say that they were trying to figure out a way to make sure that the "fixes" in the reconciliation bill would be guaranteed to pass... so they wanted to tie the two bills together... unfortunately for them, they weren't able to do that and bind the senate in the process. The complication is that if they don't use reconciliation, the GOP will just filibuster the bill and not allow a vote... so they can't go through conference... which is the normal process. If the GOP would just allow an up and down vote the dems wouldn't have to use reconciliation to bypass the filibuster...

The Demon · 03-20-2010, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nation-x

It depends on who you listen to... of you listen to a "conservative" you will get the negative narrative and the exact opposite from the left. I never heard any democrat saying that the use of deem and pass was to avoid the vote... that all came from the right-wing. I heard dems say that they were trying to figure out a way to make sure that the "fixes" in the reconciliation bill would be guaranteed to pass... so they wanted to tie the two bills together... unfortunately for them, they weren't able to do that and bind the senate in the process. The complication is that if they don't use reconciliation, the GOP will just filibuster the bill and not allow a vote... so they can't go through conference... which is the normal process. If the GOP would just allow an up and down vote the dems wouldn't have to use reconciliation to bypass the filibuster...

Again, I think the GOP will stand down if the Dems publically announce their individual votes. I think that's rather fair.. Btw, it would be cool if you weren't blatantly biased lol.

nation-x · 03-20-2010, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon

Again, I think the GOP will stand down if the Dems publically announce their individual votes. I think that's rather fair.. Btw, it would be cool if you weren't blatantly biased lol.

lol... no they won't. They even filibuster bills and nominations they support. The house has sent them 290 bills in the last year and they have filibustered every single one. There have been a slew of nominees that they have filibustered and after the cloture vote defeated the filibuster they vote unanimously to confirm the nominee. They are playing pure politics to prevent the dems from governing even a little bit.

The Demon · 03-20-2010, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nation-x

lol... no they won't. They even filibuster bills and nominations they support. The house has sent them 290 bills in the last year and they have filibustered every single one. There have been a slew of nominees that they have filibustered and after the cloture vote defeated the filibuster they vote unanimously to confirm the nominee. They are playing pure politics to prevent the dems from governing even a little bit.

No, they're playing pure politics to prevent the dems from governing TOO much because the Dems seem to be completely out of touch with reality and the American people, which is why they're looking worse and worse. If the Democrats took a step back and did something logical for a change, like analyze the health care bill and vote on it individually, I highly doubt the Republicans would try and filibuster as much..

Btw, I do find it ironic that you've virtually passed off every criticism of the left/Democrats that I've seen on this forum, as right wing propaganda. I could use the exact same logic and reverse the groups, but that wouldn't get us anywhere, now would it?

BFT3K · 03-20-2010, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nation-x

lol... no they won't. They even filibuster bills and nominations they support. The house has sent them 290 bills in the last year and they have filibustered every single one. There have been a slew of nominees that they have filibustered and after the cloture vote defeated the filibuster they vote unanimously to confirm the nominee. They are playing pure politics to prevent the dems from governing even a little bit.

No shit, and it would be a really sad thing if they are rewarded with ANY new seats in return for fucking over the American people.

If you can't see what the GOP has been doing since Obama was voted in, then you are either blind, or YOU ARE BIASED BEYOND BELIEF.

They are simply the party of NO, and they are doing everything to try and convince people that Obama can't get anything done, while they drag everything down to a near halt.

There are over 150 republican requests in the current healthcare bill. If the bill came out IN ANY SIZE they would not support it, simply because they clearly don't care about healthcare, and because they will do anything to stop Obama from accomplishing anything.

For them to say this bill should be scrapped and started over is so ridiculous and transparent it is absurd!

nation-x · 03-20-2010, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon

No, they're playing pure politics to prevent the dems from governing TOO much because the Dems seem to be completely out of touch with reality and the American people

That, my friend, is a purely republican talking point. I don't know where you live... but the majority of the American people are not conservatives... they are Independants... and that does not mean they are Libertarian either... it means they are swing voters. The majority of the country voted for Obama... there may have been SOME people who regret their vote... but it isn't a great majority by far. The majority wants the public option... go look at any poll that asks that question and the answer is clear.

The Demon · 03-20-2010, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BFT3K

No shit, and it would be a really sad thing if they are rewarded with ANY new seats in return for fucking over the American people.

Like the Democrats are doing now?

Quote:

If you can't see what the GOP has been doing since Obama was voted in, then you are either blind, or YOU ARE BIASED BEYOND BELIEF.

I'll use your logic. "If you can't see how the Democrats are fucking themselves and the American people, you are biased beyond belief!"

Quote:

They are simply the party of NO, and they are doing everything to try and convince people that Obama can't get anything done, while they drag everything down to a near halt.

They don't have to convince anyone that Obama can't get anything done, because he can't. But please, continue regurgitating the bullshit you hear on TV or from other disillusioned morons. Let this conversation stay between the adults.

Quote:

There are over 150 republican requests in the current healthcare bill. If the bill came out IN ANY SIZE they would not support it, simply because they clearly don't care about healthcare, and because they will do anything to stop Obama from accomplishing anything.

+1 for stupidity and baseless assumptions.

Quote:

For then to say this bill should be scrapped and started over is so ridiculous and transparent it is absurd!

I'm glad you have any kind of legitimate argument to back this up. Oh wait...

The Demon · 03-20-2010, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nation-x

That, my friend, is a purely republican talking point. I don't know where you live... but the majority of the American people are not conservatives... they are Independants... and that does not mean they are Libertarian either... it means they are swing voters. The majority of the country voted for Obama... there may have been SOME people who regret their vote... but it isn't a great majority by far. The majority wants the public option... go look at any poll that asks that question and the answer is clear.

1. Republican talking point? Just say that you and other Democrats like to cop out of an argument by calling something "right wing" or "Republican". Again, i'll do the same. "Everything you just stated was left wing propaganda". See how effectively that ends the conversation?

2. The majority of the people oppose Obama right now, if you REALLY want to get into votes.

3. The majority of the people do NOT want the public option, NOR Obamacare. Now please, stop using nonsense and polls as the basis for your arguments. I've given you a lot of credit for being able to understand the Deem and Pass rule, don't ruin it with your biased bullshit.

BFT3K · 03-20-2010, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nation-x

That, my friend, is a purely republican talking point. I don't know where you live... but the majority of the American people are not conservatives... they are Independants... and that does not mean they are Libertarian either... it means they are swing voters. The majority of the country voted for Obama... there may have been SOME people who regret their vote... but it isn't a great majority by far. The majority wants the public option... go look at any poll that asks that question and the answer is clear.

Arguing with a mentally handicapped person will only frustrate you. It is best to either dismiss him as the ass he is, or, if you prefer, sling insults at him.

He is a message board mosquito. Facts evade him. He is a brainwashed Fox News droid.

The Demon · 03-20-2010, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BFT3K

Arguing with a mentally handicapped person will only frustrate you. It is best to either dismiss him as the ass he is, or, if you prefer, sling insults at him.

He is a message board mosquito. Facts evade him. He is a brainwashed Fox News droid.

Says the second dumbest people on gfy

Is there any wonder why nobody other than me responds to you? I really pity you but I love watching you post. It makes me feel good being so much smarter than someone like you

nation-x · 03-20-2010, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BFT3K

No shit, and it would be a really sad thing if they are rewarded with ANY new seats in return for fucking over the American people.

If you can't see what the GOP has been doing since Obama was voted in, then you are either blind, or YOU ARE BIASED BEYOND BELIEF.

They are simply the party of NO, and they are doing everything to try and convince people that Obama can't get anything done, while they drag everything down to a near halt.

There are over 150 republican requests in the current healthcare bill. If the bill came out IN ANY SIZE they would not support it, simply because they clearly don't care about healthcare, and because they will do anything to stop Obama from accomplishing anything.

For then to say this bill should be scrapped and started over is so ridiculous and transparent it is absurd!

The idiots that are supporting them in their obstruction effort have very short memories or don't have a good understanding of what they support... they don't remember how the Jack Abramoff scandal dug deep into the GOP and even brought down the Speaker of the House and high ranking administration staffers. Just wait to see what happens over the Ensign affair... they have just started down that rabbit hole and have already uncovered Quid Quo Pro deals, violations of Lobbying Laws, NRSC payoffs and more.

I think that the dems should call their bluff and MAKE them filibuster every fucking bill. That is what Clinton did and he ended up winning.

The Demon · 03-20-2010, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nation-x

The idiots that are supporting them in their obstruction effort have very short memories or don't have a good understanding of what they support... they don't remember how the Jack Abramoff scandal dug deep into the GOP and even brought down the Speaker of the House and high ranking administration staffers. Just wait to see what happens over the Ensign affair... they have just started down that rabbit hole.

I think that the dems should call their bluff and MAKE them filibuster every fucking bill. That is what Clinton did and he ended up winning.

Because Clinton was a competent president and the Democrats are pussies. Furthermore, Clinton got a lot done because the Republicans controlled the House and Senate for most of his presidency. It never works when one party controls everything.

Btw, I think you're the first person to respond to BFT3K in I don't know how long. Perhaps someone who is dumb beyond belief might finally get that needed self esteem boost.

smutnut · 03-20-2010, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon

1. Republican talking point? Just say that you and other Democrats like to cop out of an argument by calling something "right wing" or "Republican". Again, i'll do the same. "Everything you just stated was left wing propaganda". See how effectively that ends the conversation?

2. The majority of the people oppose Obama right now, if you REALLY want to get into votes.

3. The majority of the people do NOT want the public option, NOR Obamacare. Now please, stop using nonsense and polls as the basis for your arguments. I've given you a lot of credit for being able to understand the Deem and Pass rule, don't ruin it with your biased bullshit.

Most people don't understand what the public option even is? They just think they are going to lose their healthcare or it's going to get more expensive if healthcare reform is passed. They would be singing a different song if they were fighting ass cancer or something similar. Most people are just easily manipulated sheep.

BFT3K · 03-20-2010, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nation-x

The idiots that are supporting them in their obstruction effort have very short memories or don't have a good understanding of what they support... they don't remember how the Jack Abramoff scandal dug deep into the GOP and even brought down the Speaker of the House and high ranking administration staffers. Just wait to see what happens over the Ensign affair... they have just started down that rabbit hole and have already uncovered Quid Quo Pro deals, violations of Lobbying Laws, NRSC payoffs and more.

I think that the dems should call their bluff and MAKE them filibuster every fucking bill. That is what Clinton did and he ended up winning.

The reality is, if Obama gets healthcare past, he will be a shoe-in in 2012.

They know this, and they are SCARED... for good reason.

He will instantly get 30,000,000+ solid votes, and they will be FUCKED!

The Demon · 03-20-2010, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smutnut

Most people don't understand what the public option even is? They just think they are going to lose their healthcare or it's going to get more expensive if healthcare reform is passed. They would be singing a different song if they were fighting ass cancer or something similar. Most people are just easily manipulated sheep.

Agreed about the easily manipulated part, so why do Democrats/Liberals constantly try and use polls as their argument?

epitome · 03-20-2010, 02:52 PM

The Demon: Please defer to Nation X

Nation X: Well...

The Demon: No, you're wrong and its because of X and Y

Why the fuck say to defer to Nation X if you're just going to dispute what he says?

Also, I thought I was the second dumbest person on GFY? Or was I third?

The Demon · 03-20-2010, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BFT3K

The reality is, if Obama gets healthcare past, he will be a shoe-in in 2012.

They know this, and they are SCARED... for good reason.

He will instantly get 30,000,000+ solid votes, and they will be FUCKED!

I don't know if this would be a post full of baseless assumptions, or pure, unadulterated bullshit. I think I'll go with the latter.

If Obama gets health care passed(try using the right words so you don't seem more of an idiot than you already are), then most likely he won't get creamed in 2012. Unless he does something miraculous, good luck to him having any shot at repeating.

The Demon · 03-20-2010, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by epitome

The Demon: Please defer to Nation X

Nation X: Well...

The Demon: No, you're wrong and its because of X and Y

Why the fuck say to defer to Nation X if you're just going to dispute what he says?

Also, I thought I was the second dumbest person on GFY? Or was I third?

Show me where I made that claim? Based on your post, you're right up there. Now let me dumb it down for you. I hate doing this but there are so many morons on this forum it's a necessity.

I told PornMD to defer to Nation X regarding the Deem and Pass rule. That's the name of the thread? Get that part?

Me and Nation X started having an argument about other things. Get that?

My disagreement with Nation X about our fundamental differences has no bearing on me deferring to him to explain the Deem and Pass rule. Get that? Or are you lost?

nation-x · 03-20-2010, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon

Furthermore, Clinton got a lot done because the Republicans controlled the House and Senate for most of his presidency. It never works when one party controls everything.

You should probably go post on redstate or freerepublic... they will actually back you on the bullcrap you post sometimes. Clinton had to shut down the government to call the Republicans bluff... you can be revisionist all you want. From 1994 on the Republicans did what they could to obstruct... once Clinton shut down the government they realized they had a player on their hands... that is why they did everything they could to catch him up in wrongdoing... and they eventually busted him for getting a blowjob.

The Demon · 03-20-2010, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nation-x

You should probably go post on redstate or freerepublic... they will actually back you on the bullcrap you post sometimes

Good point, I can refer to you to some left wing propaganda and we can keep playing this "you're biased" bullshit all day long.

Quote:

Clinton had to shut down the government to call the Republicans bluff... you can be revisionist all you want. From 1994 on the Republicans did what they could to obstruct... once Clinton shut down the government they realized they had a player on their hands... that is why they did everything they could to catch him up in wrongdoing... and they eventually busted him for getting a blowjob.

This has to do with what exactly? I wasn't arguing history. I loved Clinton as a president, aside from his massive bank reform fuck up. Clinton had balls. Obama and these worthless democrats do not. But again, regardless of the specifics, things work better when different parties control the presidency, and the house/senate.

nation-x · 03-20-2010, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon

My disagreement with Nation X about our fundamental differences has no bearing on me deferring to him to explain the Deem and Pass rule.

BFT3K · 03-20-2010, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon

I don't know if this would be a post full of baseless assumptions, or pure, unadulterated bullshit. I think I'll go with the latter.

If Obama gets health care passed(try using the right words so you don't seem more of an idiot than you already are), then most likely he won't get creamed in 2012. Unless he does something miraculous, good luck to him having any shot at repeating.

The Demon · 03-20-2010, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BFT3K

Oh sweet. Since BFT3K is both illiterate and incompetent, he needs pictures to make sure the words are spelled correctly

The Demon · 03-20-2010, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nation-x

Me and you have fundamental differences, like I have with Liberals and Democrats. But I have a few Democrat friends because they can be objective. The difference between you and me is, you've proven to be biased while I've proven to be objective. I have no problems with calling Clinton a more or less, great president. I argued with Vendzilla about the validity of Baier's interview. I oppose Obama and his policies NOT because I'm a Republican and he's a Democrat, but because his ideologies conflict with mine. IF you want to be taken seriously, maybe you can show some objectivity once in a while, if ever.

BFT3K · 03-20-2010, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon

Oh sweet. Since BFT3K is both illiterate and incompetent, he needs pictures to make sure the words are spelled correctly

You better hope they pass healthcare, then maybe they can come out with a vaccine that cures ignorance. If not, then I guess your life will just have to hobble along as is.

BFT3K · 03-20-2010, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon

Me and you have fundamental differences.

Yes one of us is a realist, and the other is an asshat going by the name "The Demon".

smutnut · 03-20-2010, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon

Agreed about the easily manipulated part, so why do Democrats/Liberals constantly try and use polls as their argument?

I'm not sure they do and I'm not sure it matters what they use to to back up their argument against people such as Sarah Palin's crew who try and claim she has foreign affairs experience because she's on the Russian border (Alaska) just as one example of their ludicrous logic.

Conservatives know something has to be done about healthcare too. They just don't want it to be done by the democrats, and they make out by backing the insurance companies at this time so delay as long as possible. It's really that simple.

It's really impossible to argue any legit facts because no one here has access to any.

The Demon · 03-20-2010, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BFT3K

You better hope they pass healthcare, then maybe they can come out with a vaccine that cures ignorance. If not, then I guess your life will just have to hobble along as is.

Unfortunately for you, there's no cure for stupidity. I guess I'll just have to keep making fun of you.

nation-x · 03-20-2010, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon

This has to do with what exactly? I wasn't arguing history.

You said that they worked with him... "Clinton got a lot done because the Republicans controlled the House and Senate for most of his presidency". That is wrong... it's not even close to true... I think you should go back and study that bit of history more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon

aside from his massive bank reform fuck up.

Which bank reform "fuck up" are you referring to?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon

Clinton had balls. Obama and these worthless democrats do not.

I will completely agree that the congressional dems... especially the senate do not have any balls... I don't think you are right about Obama. I think he has more balls than anyone you know... how many of them would want to be the first black President with all of the nutjobs this country has? Especially after Palin kept calling him a terrorist...

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon

But again, regardless of the specifics, things work better when different parties control the presidency, and the house/senate.

I have no idea where you got that idea... but it's not based in reality. Especially in this political environment where tea partiers spit on congressmen and call them faggots and ni**ers like they did to Frank and Lewis today and the GOP congressmen didn't say a fucking thing about it... instead they called for revolution and all kinds of other nonsense like they have been doing for over a year.

The Demon · 03-20-2010, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smutnut

Conservatives know something has to be done about healthcare too. They just don't want it to be done by the democrats, and they make out by backing the insurance companies at this time so delay as long as possible. It's really that simple.

I'm leaning more towards the notion that parts of the bill actually help insurance companies, so that logic would be thrown out. Conservatives also know that we can't afford any more deficit spending. I highly doubt they/we would have any problems with health care reform, as soon as the bigger issue(economy) is resolved. Since Obama is only fucking the economy to the point of imminent collapse, I think it's natural to think that health care reform is unsustainable at this point.

BFT3K · 03-20-2010, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smutnut

It's really impossible to argue any legit facts because no one here has access to any.

Here's one: Obama wants to pass healthcare reform, and the Republicans are in lockstep against him.

Vendzilla · 03-20-2010, 03:06 PM

Well, the Dems are going to sell this as doing the right thing for America in November
The GOP is going to sell it as not listening to the people in November.
Personally, I don't think 90% of the democrats know what they are voting on, remember 2700 pages of the government taking over the healthcare insurance industry
I know a person that works for the Cal State Medical board as a senior analyst that doesn't even have a high school diploma or a GED.

nation-x · 03-20-2010, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon

you've proven to be biased while I've proven to be objective

This isn't even true... you have proven to be somewhat objective on some issues and completely biased on others... proven by the fact that you repeat talking points that have no basis in fact. You haven't proven a single thing I have said wrong and I have proven many things you have said wrong... and for the record... I voted for Bush Sr. I was too young to vote for Reagan... but probably would have voted for him too back then...

EDIT: I wanted to add one more thing... I might have actually voted for Huckabee if he had won the nomination... too bad he proved himself to be a nutjob after he took the job at Fox.

smutnut · 03-20-2010, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon

I'm leaning more towards the notion that parts of the bill actually help insurance companies, so that logic would be thrown out. Conservatives also know that we can't afford any more deficit spending. I highly doubt they/we would have any problems with health care reform, as soon as the bigger issue(economy) is resolved. Since Obama is only fucking the economy to the point of imminent collapse, I think it's natural to think that health care reform is unsustainable at this point.

First off, I thought conservatives didn't believe in government intervention to fix the economy so where is that suddenly coming from.

But Teddy Roosevelt took on the Robber Barons and everyone said he was going to destroy the economy at the time and he was a republican.

of course the robber barons were behind that PR i'm sure too.

The Demon · 03-20-2010, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nation-x

You said that they worked with him... "Clinton got a lot done because the Republicans controlled the House and Senate for most of his presidency". That is wrong... it's not even close to true... I think you should go back and study that bit of history more.

Uh, I said the Republicans controlled the house and senate for most of his presidency. That much is 100% true, I don't know why you'd argue facts.

Quote:

Which bank reform "fuck up" are you referring to?

Quote:

The first, in 1997, was a change to the amount of taxes a homeowner had to pay on the sale of his or her home, up to $500,000. That change effectively made buying and selling a home for profit the most compelling investment in America by tax standards. It shifted our housing market from one of supply and demand to one of rampant speculation.

The second mistake was one of inaction. In 1998, Long-Term Capital Management's use of derivatives and leverage required a massive $3.6 billion hedge fund bailout organized by the New York Federal Reserve Bank. After the fiasco rocked the markets, the administration was on the spot.

But perhaps the biggest mistake of the Clinton years regarding Wall Street and the one that rings loudest today was the 1999 repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933, which effectively had split investment banking and brokerages from commercial banks.

In the years leading up to the repeal, Wall Street had been grumbling that the law had become an anachronism. Financial technology was sophisticated. We were so much smarter than they were back in 1929 that there was no way a financial-services conglomerate could pose a threat to the system, Wall Street experts said. Besides, they argued, it was a good idea for banks to handle customers' investments and savings as a hedge in the bad times.

Realize that I posted those because you would predictably call bullshit on what I typed.

Quote:

I will completely agree that the congressional dems... especially the senate do not have any balls... I don't think you are right about Obama. I think he has more balls than anyone you know... how many of them would want to be the first black President with all of the nutjobs this country has? Especially after Palin kept calling him a terrorist...

I think you're living in the past. The nutjobs are a minority in this countryn ow.

Quote:

I have no idea where you got that idea... but it's not based in reality. Especially in this political environment where tea partiers spit on congressmen and call them faggots and ni**ers like they did to Frank and Lewis today.

The Clinton Administration. From 2005 to the end of his presidency, the house and senate were controlled by the Republicans. Call it correlation, call it causation, whatever. What DOESN'T work is one party holding everything, and we've seen plenty of evidence for that.

The Demon · 03-20-2010, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smutnut

First off, I thought conservatives didn't believe in government intervention to fix the economy so where is that suddenly coming from.

But Teddy Roosevelt took on the Robber Barons and everyone said he was going to destroy the economy at the time and he was a republican.

We don't. That's my point lol. He's fucking with the markets, he's fucking with everything. Deficit spending, bailouts, etc.

The Demon · 03-20-2010, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nation-x

This isn't even true... you have proven to be somewhat objective on some issues and completely biased on others... proven by the fact that you repeat talking points that have no basis in fact. You haven't proven a single thing I have said wrong and I have proven many things you have said wrong... and for the record... I voted for Bush Sr. I was too young to vote for Reagan... but probably would have voted for him too back then...

Oh wow, I overestimated your intelligence, my bad.

1. I don't have to prove anything you said wrong, you have to prove facts because the burden of proof is on you.

2. Show me where you've "proven me wrong" lol. I take it you'll ignore tihs part.

3. Show me the talking points that have no basis in fact...

I doubt you will address either of those 3 as this post of yours has "bullshit" written all over it.

nation-x · 03-20-2010, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon

Oh wow, I overestimated your intelligence, my bad.

1. I don't have to prove anything you said wrong, you have to prove facts because the burden of proof is on you.

2. Show me where you've "proven me wrong" lol. I take it you'll ignore tihs part.

3. Show me the talking points that have no basis in fact...

I doubt you will address either of those 3 as this post of yours has "bullshit" written all over it.

I'll give you a perfect one... Deem and Pass... you were repeating the talking point until I explained it to you.

03-20-2010, 12:27 PM	#1
PornMD Mainstream Businessman Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: San Diego Posts: 9,291	Can a liberal please help me with this Deem & Pass issue? First off, I'm centrist - honestly hate both of the major parties out there and don't fully fit in with the others either. I'm honestly confused about this whole Deem & Pass thing. The senate has passed a health care bill. Congress feels that the health care bill is unpopular. They also want to make amendments to make it pass. It sounds like this whole Deem & Pass thing is supposed to ultimately pass an amended bill without a vote, because they're afraid of voting yes on an unpopular item. But wouldn't the fact that the dems are the party that is pushing Deem & Pass in this case basically paint the entire Dem party as wanting to vote yes on this bill? How does it not do that? I'm just trying to understand this because it just seems like I have to be missing something here. It seems like the dems are fucked in general due to the focus on this health care bill to begin with as if it'd be simple, when it's not the real issue the average person is faced with anyways, i.e. Bush's Iraq War vs. focusing on finding Osama Bin Laden = Obama's Health Care push vs. fixing the economy and creating jobs. Still though, this Deem & Pass tactic to me would only further fuck the party because it would damage EVERYONE in the party if they truly feel it's an unpopular item. I can't help but think of most republicans as old curmudgeons (which John McCain, whom I actually DID like in 2000, came off as in his pres running in 2008) so I'm not looking forward to whomever will be undoubtedly taking Obama's position in 2012, but things are not looking good for him or the Dem party right now, so we'll be back to that soon I guess. There needs to be a party that gives a shit about the people that comes into power but that'll never happen. __________________ Want to crush it in mainstream with Facebook ads? Hit me up.

03-20-2010, 12:38 PM	#3
Vendzilla Biker Gnome Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: cell#324 Posts: 23,200	They are hoping that they can sell the health bill to everyone after it passes to keep their jobs __________________ Webair died? Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants think about that

03-20-2010, 01:24 PM	#4
nation-x Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 5,370	They have decided not to use deem and pass because there is no way to bind the senate to their rule vote. The purpose was to be able to pass the senate bill while tying in the "fixes" so that both things would be passed if the reconciliation bill was passed... the parliamentarian shot that down so now they will have separate votes on the senate bill and on the reconciliation bill. There would have still been 2 votes with deem and pass... the people have been saying their would be no vote were lying... the difference is that if they voted on a deem and pass rule, the vote would have been recorded as a procedural vote instead of a direct vote on the legislation. Btw... another cute trick that the GOP has pulled here is that they have framed deem and pass as if the dems invented it... reality is that the GOP has used it 202 times since 1996 and even won a ruling in court over the constitutionality of it. They were sued by the dems for using it in 2004 and ended up winning in appeals court. Last edited by nation-x; 03-20-2010 at 01:26 PM..

03-20-2010, 02:07 PM	#8
PornMD Mainstream Businessman Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: San Diego Posts: 9,291	I fully understood the GOP had used it in the past and more or less WHAT doing it was supposed to accomplish, but I had been reading in places that the strategic reason it was being done was so that none of the Dems would have to directly vote yes on it and suffer backlash from having voted yes on something that was unpopular. Was that correct at least? If so, then I was just curious how it couldn't be seen that with the Dems having pushed this option, from a backlash standpoint that it's effectively all of them voting yes. Anyways, kind of moot issue now that they're not doing it. I think they made the best choice but was just trying to understand why they were so eager to try that in the first place. __________________ Want to crush it in mainstream with Facebook ads? Hit me up.

03-20-2010, 03:06 PM	#44
Vendzilla Biker Gnome Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: cell#324 Posts: 23,200	Well, the Dems are going to sell this as doing the right thing for America in November The GOP is going to sell it as not listening to the people in November. Personally, I don't think 90% of the democrats know what they are voting on, remember 2700 pages of the government taking over the healthcare insurance industry I know a person that works for the Cal State Medical board as a senior analyst that doesn't even have a high school diploma or a GED. __________________ Webair died? Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants think about that

03-20-2010, 12:38 PM	#2
The Demon Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 7,336	Ron paul. I would say ask nation-x or kane as they seem to be the only competent non conservatives on this forum.

03-20-2010, 02:12 PM	#11
smutnut So Fucking Banned Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Babylon Posts: 5,889	Most brilliant use of irony I've ever seen. Using a book of the bible to point out stupidity and not spelling stupidity correctly just to reinforce the issue pretty much kills at least two birds with one stone "Book of Revelation chapters 16 to 21 is why Fundamentalist Christians in America support Israel and exactly why we shouldn't support anything to do with this stupdity."

03-20-2010, 02:52 PM	#28
epitome So Fucking Lame Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: St. Petersburg, FL Posts: 12,156	The Demon: Please defer to Nation X Nation X: Well... The Demon: No, you're wrong and its because of X and Y Why the fuck say to defer to Nation X if you're just going to dispute what he says? Also, I thought I was the second dumbest person on GFY? Or was I third?