Amputate Your Head

Motorcyclists being REQUIRED to wear helmets in order to ride. I don;t remember the official count, but not every state has the law. Unfortunately, California does.

tekart

Pro Choice vs. Pro Life:

I'm for Pro-Choice. I think every woman has the right to use an abortion as birth control!
Every doctor that performs an abortion should be going over the risks involved so you know what you're getting into here! And if they don't, then every woman should know about the risks as well. If you don't and you've had to many abortions and now you can't have kids when you think you're ready?sorry?too bad?maybe you should have used protection?that includes ABSTINENCE as well!

I think we have to consider the overgrowth of our population too as well when considering the effects of Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life

I'm tired of seeing on the news how we're constantly ruining this planet, causing a faster effect of global warming, watching wildlife get killed because we've invaded their territory because we've outgrown ours, etc, etc?.

And since I'm a stats freak, lets go over these findings:

Estimated U.S. population as of July, 7th 2000: 6.1 BILLION PEOPLE (6,137,400,560)
Estimated U.S. population expected one year later 6.2 BILLION PEOPLE (6,234,250,378)
Growth over one year, for those who can't easily do the math, is 96,849,818!

Looking at the growth population alone at http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/img/worldpop.gif shows that by the time we reach the year 2050, there will be just over 9 BILLION PEOPLE!

The current world population is over 6 billion and increases at a rate of 76,570,430 people every year. U.S. population has increased 85 percent since 1950, growing from 151 million to 283 million in just fifty years. If present trends continue, our population will reach 400 million by the year 2050.

More people mean more pollution, less green space, and even more demands on the earth's already overburdened resources.

So, if we did elect to ban abortions, then we'll definitely eat ourselves out of house and home?. eventually?if not our life time?then maybe our kids!

That's my $.o2 worth!




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I hit the escape key but I'm stil here!

bhutocracy

oh.. in Australia you're required to wear a helmet to ride a bike.. mush less a motorcycle.. i guess from that vantage point (ie a societal norm) it looks like a bit of a silly thing to be boycotting a product for.. but thats the difference of cultures i guess..

baddog

Many states have mandated the use of helmets for motorcycle riding, and federal highway funds were held as blackmail over states to implement them, along with the use of seatbelts.

While most states have at one time or another had mandatory helmet laws, many have repealed said laws, mainly because it has been proven over and over again that helmets do not save lives, and in fact the percentage of fatalities to miles ridden have increased in states that do have mandatory helmet laws.

Tooting my own horn - a few years back I intentionally got a ticket for riding without a helmet (took 4 months to get it), took it to court and was convicted (as I hoped would happen), and then I took it to the Appellate Courts and had the conviction over-turned. I did this all representing myself.

Unfortunately, the Court of Appeals does not publish all decisions, and my case was one they did not publish, so my efforts were not utilized in the manner I had hoped, that being the repeal of the law here in California. At least I get away without wearing one around my town as a result.

As far as whether or not there are chicks out there using abortion as a form of birth control, granted, there are not many, but there are some, and that is disturbing.

baddog

tekart,

Have you ever heard the saying that you can prove anything with numbers or statistics? You have definitely taken that to a new level. Allow me to expound.

First you say, Estimated U.S. population as of July, 7th 2000: 6.1 BILLION PEOPLE (6,137,400,560)
Estimated U.S. population expected one year later 6.2 BILLION PEOPLE (6,234,250,378)
Growth over one year, for those who can't easily do the math, is 96,849,818!

Then you say, The current world population is over 6 billion well duh. If the US population is at 6.1 billion, then I will make an educated guess that the world population exceeds 6 billion

Then you state, U.S. population has increased 85 percent since 1950, growing from 151 million to 283 million in just fifty years. If present trends continue, our population will reach 400 million by the year 2050. What happened to the 6 billion we had a few lines earlier?

Your stats remind me of another saying, "If you can not dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit."

kane

baddog, I think you can get a leather jacket when you get 1000 posts

I've had a DVD player for about a year, they rock!

baddog

My concern is if I will have to upgrade from my MS-DOS 5.0 OS if I want to play it on my 386-DX pc. I bumped up my RAM from 4meg to 8meg as a Xmas present to myself. I suppose the internal pc speaker will be cool for now.

bhutocracy

don't take this as being too antagonistic, but if this were true why doesn't the superbike championship admin outlaw the use of helmets for it's races in the name of safety?

have you ever met someone with brain damage from cracking their head on the pavement?

i find it hard to believe that helmets don't prevent injury.. that why we have a SKULL instead of a nutsack around our brains.

sure i see the argument from personal freedom.. but to say that helmets increase injury..... well im not going to pretend i know for 100% sure.. and i will be doing some research after this.. but i'll tell you right now i feel far more comfortable riding with a helmet than without... and i don't trust stats without other opposing/more impartial sources
we also have seatbelt laws BTW too.. i trust you have no negative data on this?

of course there are a few.. but not enough to warrant the constant referral to them, it shows how far the pro-lifers strawmen have insinuated themselves into everyday conversation..

UnseenWorld

A sperm is a cell.

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On-top

A fertilized egg is a cell.




[This message has been edited by On-top (edited 01-09-2002).]

On-top

Double



[This message has been edited by On-top (edited 01-09-2002).]

Amputate Your Head

Let's speed this up...

Someone is going to argue that after conception, things are different because then there is a life.

I'm going to say, there's life in my sperm too.

They're going to say, yes, but after conception, there is a chance for that life to become a human.

And I'm going to say, there's a chance for every single sperm swimming around in my nutsack right now to become a human.

They will say it's not the same thing.

I will say it is exactly the same thing, and that sperm donors & masturbaters are, by their standards, murderers.

This will go on for a while, until someone gets really frustrated, then I will get drunk, make some more smart comments about God punishing the feeble minded,... people will get mad and yell, and the whole thing will spin into complete chaos.

Okay... now I can go eat.

bhutocracy

heheheh.. does get a bit sameish the sixth or seventh time eh?

On-top

Thanks Amp, you saved everyone a lot of bullshit typing. Much appreciated ;-)




[This message has been edited by On-top (edited 01-09-2002).]

cosis

Pro-choice, there should be no laws on someones body.

baddog

Damn Amp, you probably eliminated 15-20 potential posts, are you trying to prevent me from getting that DVD player or something?

bhutocracy, well please feel free to do your research, and if you need some links to see the statistics proving my point, please feel free to ask.

A few points though. Motorcycle racers rarely take a full impact on their helmets, their helmets provide to functions, one is to prevent injury from sliding their heads along the pavement, and aerodynamics.

Secondly, the first thing done in an ER for a massive head trauma, is crack the skull, if it has not been done so in the accident, to relieve the pressure on the brain from swelling. An experiment, take a chicken egg, and shake it vigorously, then crack the shell and notice the yolk is broken. Same thing happens with the brain (or your brain on drugs).

Lastly (for now), but certainly not least, the percentage of head injuries due to motorcycle accidents is a fraction of those received in automobile accidents. It is illegal to wear a helmet while driving a car. Care to guess why that is? There are a many reasons, but I will see if you can figure them out.

Lastly, while I may not approve of seatbelts, I would never get in a car without one. There is a big difference between what happens to innocent bystanders if a motorcycle rider leaves his bike. If a car is involved in an accident, and the driver is ejected from it, the car will rarely just fall over. Much damage can occur to a driverless car as opposed to a riderless motorcycle.

Mogul

I am pro-choice.

I mean, what if a FAT white women gets raped by some Mexicano. She should be able to kill the quesadilla if she wants. Or at least put it up for sale for 99 cents at the local Taco Bell.

Just my 2 pesos.

No offense to Fat white women.

Acabo de amar las mujeres blancas gordas.

Catalinas

One day there will be some logic thrown into the whole pro-life/pro-choice debate. I am pro-life, always will be, would never have an abortion. I don't judge my friends for their choices on this subject nor would I choose what I eat for lunch by how a person believes on this issue. I would respect a person for calling it what it actually is, an emotional issue instead of a political one.

A few points that seem obvious to me....

How can you say that abortion isn't used for birth control? Outside of rape and molestation (which don't account for most of the abortions each year) an abortion is simply that, birth control. I didn't want to have a baby, inconvenient time, too young, not enough money, whatever the reason..if it's not because of a traumatic event or medical reasons, an abortion is simply an afterthought to a condom. Period, no other way to put it. No 'my choice' about it, you are choosing to terminate a pregnancy after it happened instead of preventing one from happening.

Now for those who say a fetus has no rights except what the mother gives it, just plain hypcritical. By that logic, a woman who's two months pregnant and on crack has a perfect right to do so. In reality, this woman would be committing a crime. A person who kicks a pregnant woman in the stomach can be charged with not just assault, but attemtped murder. A person who kills a pregnant woman is talked of killing a pregnant woman and her baby. So which is it folks, a woman with some cells in her stomach or a woman carrying a child?

baddog

Well, as I recall the pregnant chick that got a ticket for driving in the carpool lane was found guilty, and you cannot write off a fetus as a tax deduction, so as usual, when it comes to the government it is a matter of convenience as to when the fetus is considered a child or a human being at all for that matter.

Amputate Your Head

It is birth control. So is murder. Kill a guy and he won't be havin' no sex, and thus, no babies. Birth control. So is castration, chastity belts, Afghani Taliban sewing rituals, imprisonment, vasectomies, drugs, etc, etc, etc....
Agreed.
How can you say "No my choice" and right after a comma say "You are choosing"...? Yes, you are CHOOSING to terminate a pregnancy. Choosing... as in *Choice*. Don't say there is no "my choice" about it when clearly there is.
I don't think it is. I'm not a woman, but I still feel I have the right to do with my body as I please. No one is going to legislate me out of my freedom to tattoo my skin, even if there are 10 million people who think I should be. No one should be dictated by other people as to what can & cannot be done with their own bodies. We don't really own anything in this world except our bodies. Everything else stays right here when we're dead & gone.
Not really. Crack is still an illegal drug. For everyone. Not just pregnant women.
Yes. She would be.
Because it makes the jury weepy and the tears well up and is much easier to get a conviction, would be my guess.
Cells.

RedShoe

I like it when Pro Lifers kill Abortion Doctors!! LOL

Pro lifers, killing people! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

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Amputate Your Head

Birth control for the Doctor.

theWatsonian

I personally do not condone abortion but I draw the line at the government legislating what women are allowed to do to their bodies.

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baddog

yes, right to life, so I can kill you, talk about hypocrisy in action.

erika

put me down for pro choice

quiet

exactly. unseenworld - I minored in Philosophy in university, and don't see why coming from a phil back ground makes you pro-life. what kind of philosophy are talking about? was Nietzche pro-life?

(spelling)

[This message has been edited by quiet (edited 01-10-2002).]

baddog

No, he was Prussian.
And your spelling was right on

quiet

edited to change unseenword to world. i studied Nietzche and others for 4 years - spelling it is easy ;)

sandman!

Pro Choice all the way the gov fuckes with enought stuff as it is.

Nedder

I just have to sit here and laugh at the fervor with which you, baddog and others, condemn pro-lifers for being so hardline and not willing to see any other point of view. Yet you condemn a dead man, his business, and his customers, because he had a certain religious belief.

You guys need to take a look in the mirror. I'm not pro choice or pro life, I personally don't give a flying fuck, but it's comical when I see things written that imply there is only ONE CHOICE with a Pro Lifer with no room for discussion when I see some of the bullshit ignorant posts on this thread.

Nothing is so cut and dry boys/girls. You are disgusted by the extreme right point of view, I'm sure some of the choicers would be sickened by the extreme left point of view on this subject as well, ie. late term abortion etc etc.

In closing, healer heal thyself.

May Dave R.I.P., I think i'm going to go on over and have a burger right now.

Nz

tekart

Shit! That's what I get for using the 'copy & paste' function and then not double-checking what the hell I'm trying to say! lol!

As for dazzling em' with BS...hey..what can I say..when you're good..you're good..or so the wife tells me! lol!

Amputate Your Head

But is that not true of the Pro-Lifers? Go ahead.... deny it.
I don't speak for everyone else, but I don't think I've expressed anything that would be considered "extreme" left... it really just comes down to something very simple and basic. And that is, the right to do with your own body as you damn well fucking please. Anything else added after that sentence right there is just self-serving bullshit. And the Lifers know it and it pisses them off more than anything.

baddog

Two questions: where did anyone condemn Dave, and where are you finding a Wendy's open at this hour?

Also, Pro-choice does offer more than one choice, while Right-to-Life does not. Your argument, while I am sure is valid in your own mind, makes little sense. Sorry.

Nedder

Baddog>>Could it be that adult webmasters are so politically unaware, that they are do not know when they are supporting someone whose political beliefs are so diametrically opposed to their own with their hard earned dollars? Or was Dave Thomas such a great spokesman that he could have any political belief, no matter how inane, that you would still support him financially?<<

Two condemnations here, one for Dave's INANE political albeit religious beliefs, and second, condemning all braindead GenX'ers who haven't grown their hippie activist hair long enough for your personal taste, albeit inane.

Another condemnation, "Your argument, while I am sure is valid in your own mind, makes little sense. Sorry."

Again the narrow mindedness you attribute to the Lifers creeps back into your own posts. Both you and Amputate miss my point entirely. I never said Pro-Life wasn't a one-trick pony, I simply stated that the "Pro-Choice End of Story" attitude on this thread is the same NO CHOICE argument you CONDEMN in the Lifers.

I'm pro choice personally, but I never say it, because I find Choicers to be extremely hypocrytical in their debates against Lifers. Lifer's are no bargain either, but there aren't enough on this thread to take up that argument.

My Wendy's is open 24 hours by the way (ok I'm lying)

Nz

spacedog

I don't stand firm in either direction..
I disagree with abortion, but at the same time I disagree with government intervention in choice..

I believe that women should have choice, but I also disagree with murdering babies..

Babies can be put up for adoption..however, should the child be unhealthy or there are forseen problems, then abortion is an alternative to bringing that child into a world where he/she would suffer..

It's very complex..

Not that any of this is going to matter soon anyway..I think this whole fucking planet is seriously fucked up & we're all doomed to armageddon..
SOON!!

Amputate Your Head

I don't agree... and you know why? Because it isn't a matter of a NO CHOICE attitude against the Lifers... there's no discussion at ALL with them. That is where that attitude comes from.

I think it is YOU who has missed the point. It isn't about defending MY position... the Lifers offer no alternative whatsoever. Their rule is carved in stone. Bottom line right there... so it's not like the Choicers aren't giving them an opportunity to express or something.... I never said it's my way or the highway... the problem is that there simply IS NO argument at all. They refuse to participate. Why is that? Because in their minds, there is no choice.

Now.. that may be confusing you... well, obviously it is... but it's pretty much the same as someone telling you that you must accept Jesus into your heart and believe and be saved or you're going straight to Hell for all eternity. You may disagree... you may feel that you are fully capable of choosing your belief system, and prefer to choose another. But in THEIR minds... there is NO choice whatsoever. Believe or burn. Again, it's carved in fucking stone and there is no room for debate. (this is a hypothetical example of certain zealots... not a blanket label on everyone of that faith)

So, I hardly think you can call me narrow-minded. I personally happen to think you are VERY confused about life, and perhaps should sit down, get good 'n drunk, and take a really long hard look at your philosophies and ideas. Because you are very misguided son. If that is your idea of narrow or closed minded, or one-sided attitude... you wouldn't last very long in the face of true non-thinking idiots.

Ya gotta be tough man... never let 'em get control of the mind, or it's all over.

Nedder

I'm sorry, the fact that I disagree with you obviously makes me ignorant, weak and in for a very tough life you know

-I never go around mirrors (Lefty Frizzell)

-I'm heading out to the highway (Judas Priest)

nZ

Amputate Your Head

That's what you derived from my post huh?

Okay... see ya later.

baddog

Nedder,

I do not look upon ones stance of Pro-Choice or Right-to-Life as a religious issue, and nowhere have I ever designated it as such. In the USA we have what they call the separation of Church and State. The abortion issue, is a political one, and if you fail to see that, then you are either from another country, or not paying very close attention.

Granted, there are people that may oppose abortion because of their religious beliefs, there are political races won and lost because of the candidates position on the issue, and there are laws governing the issue. I will never condemn anyone for their religious beliefs. I might condemn certain religions, like Scientology, Christian Scientist, Methodist, Mormons, Church of England and Judaism, but I would never condemn the members of these congregations for their beliefs.

Also, I think the fact that I find a particular political platform to be inane falls short of a condemnation. Inane only means ludicrous, asinine, idiotic, senseless, moronic, stupid, etc. It is not a condemnation.

I am sorry you fail to see that Right to Life offers only one choice, while the Pro-Choice offers many. Right to Lifers do offer only one possibility, if you get knocked up, no matter what the circumstances, you carry the baby to term.

Pro-Choice, by definition, allows for any one of a number of alternatives, including, but not limited to carrying the baby to term. Pro-Choice is not pro-abortion, it only offers it as an alternative. The mother makes the decision based on her own personal, religious, moral or political belief.

Shianna

hahaha nevermind. I was replying to the stats part of it cause it looked right to me but I see the typo now.

Damn 6 billion in the US alone would be pretty scary shit!

[This message has been edited by Shianna (edited 01-11-2002).]

Amputate Your Head

It's not?


all this time.... I've been avoiding the edges...

baddog

Shianna,

I suggest you go back and read his post. I only cut and paste what he said. Even he admitted he screwed it up.

Now, perhaps you will go back, read his post, then admit that you too screwed up.

Shianna

You beat me to it :-) I was editing my post when you replied LMAO I saw the typo.

baddog

It has occurred to me, and I am sure Amp can answer this question, but is this the longest thread in the history of GFY in which Boneprone has not participated? I was thinking for a while that it was the only one he had not participated in, but I noticed a couple he missed.

[This message has been edited by baddog (edited 01-11-2002).]

baddog

Well, to be honest, the first time I read his post I was thinking, "okay, NYC can not have more than 1 billion, where are the other 5 billion coming from?"

Ludedude

Pro-choice...

Now hand me my fucking fries with that Big Classic combo...and make it a Biggie

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AaronM

oops, wrong thread.

[This message has been edited by AaronM (edited 01-12-2002).]

baddog

Well, as this thread seems to be dying, I will use this opportunity to make some closing thoughts (I made an 800 mile road trip yesterday, so had plenty of time to think).

I know that there are significantly more males than females that participate on this board, however, I find it interesting how few actually chose to participate in this discussion. Most of the commentary was made by males, which could be equated to the males here doing the voting on the subject of what women should or should not be allowed to do with their bodies.

This is the problem, I think, with what is going on in the real world. Lack of participation by the involved parties (in this case, women), so the people making the decisions of what women are allowed to do with their bodies are men. And why? Because women are not speaking up and making their voices heard.

Maybe I am giving this board to much credit, but I think it is its own little world, and scary as it might be, this world and the outside world are pretty much the same, just on a smaller scale.

So, any of you chicks that are tired of men making the laws that are governing what you can do with your own bodies, you might think about speaking up for yourselves, because while Pro-choice came out on top on this poll, the voice was made primarily by men. In the outside world the voice will also be made primarily by men, but the Right-to-Lifers could have the final say.

Something to think about.

fantasyc

I have really conflicting views on this subject. I want to say pro-life with all my heart but I think that by choosing pro-life we are actually hurting the very children we are trying to save. I believe that in most cases the baby is better off being aborted than raised by a mother who doesn't want it.

I am against abortion though. As women we are responsible for our own bodies. Nature gives us the ability to bare children long before we do. We are reminded each month that we are able to have a child. There is absolutely no such thing as an unplanned pregnancy.

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unavoidable

right to life, not going to risk going to hell for killing a little baby

you guys must be crazy