Fabien

Close ?
NOT

xenigo

I guess it's time for you to close up shop then, Roger. You built your businesses on content. Now according to you, you should stop producing content.

Good luck with that.

It's sort of like telling NBC that since a ton of people have DVR's and fast forward through commercial, they should stop producing their programming.

You're not sounding like much of an authority in a businesses that you were supposedly successful in.

notoldschool

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BlackCrayon

How much more money does the tube site cost to run in comparison to the tgp?

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WarChild

I didn't say I ran tubes. I said I convert tube traffic.

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tony286

Really talk to amazon, 1800meds,buy,newegg, etc etc about that. Business principles dont change. The adult industry gives shit away because most of the money was made inspite of themselves online.

cognitos

People used to go door-to-door selling things, like the Encyclopedia Britannica. All those people who used to sell these books were fired and lost their jobs as the market changed.

Fast forward to the internet age...

Wikipedia received roughly 450 times more traffic than the online version of the Britannica in the first three months of 2007. Almost certainly, much of the information contained with Wikipedia has been taken from Britannica.com.

Things change.

One thing is for certain, it is much easier and cheaper to find information by going to the Google, than it is buying volumes of encyclopedias. Not good if you make encyclopedias, but really excellent if you want to know something.

The difference between encyclopedias and porn though -- is that when you are watching porn, at some point, you are going to see something that will make you reach for your wallet before you reach for your cock. It is 100% guaranteed on a long enough timeline. That is the reason that so much money is spent on advertising on Tubes, because the surfer will spend money eventually. The volume of traffic a tube get makes that a certain. If a site is getting 6 million unique visitors a day, they are not all career freeloaders. Some will spend money, some will not.

Tubes have not killed the industry, they have changed it. In the same way Napster changed the music industry, P2P changed it, and then iTunes changed it again. iTunes has sold 5 billion songs as of June 2008. How many independent music shops have gone out of business because of the digital music revolution?

text links > tgps > mgps > tubes > ??? > ??? > ???

As Margaret Thatcher famously said, "You can't buck the market" -- the market will do what the market wants.

ADL Colin

Of course there are thousands of sites selling stuff. Who said otherwise? What I did say is that "this is the internet. The evolution is toward FREE". No, it's not an ultimate goal. No, It's not all-encompassing. What it is, and what I mean is that it is a business model that is increasing in prevalence across a wide spectrum of businesses.

I gave the example of encyclopedias but there are thousands more.

Consider "Moody's Manual of Investments". This was a book sold every year for a hefty price tag. It included analysis and financials for thousands of public companies. There were separate manuals for banks, industrials and in their day railroads. This was a great product and it was worth paying for. Now that same information is given away on the Moody's website with a free registration.

The New York Times is free. Also just a free registration.

Or consider 411. You can use 411 to look up a phone number and it costs $1.49. Or instead you can google sms and it is free.

The grocery store Publix gives away free antibiotics. Two words. Loss leader.

You said "The Internet should never be about FREE". Well, what do you mean by that? Internet businesses are subject to the same competitive forces that non internet businesses are subject to. Free is a completely viable business model. it is for newspapers, white pages, yellow pages, investment information, encyclopedias, classifieds and hundreds more.

You said Paul that "Tubes don't meet the real needs of real porn consumers". Maybe you could clarify. What are all those visitors at RedTube doing on that site?

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ADL Colin

Tony, maybe I'm missing your point.

How does the fact that some businesses make money by selling things counter the point that some businesses make money by giving things away for free? Or is that not your point? What is you point?

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ADL Colin

VERY well said.

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mynameisjim

The TV analogy doesn't work at all here. The television networks and production companies control where their content is shown. They don't give anything away for free. They very tightly control the times and circumstances at which their product can be shown.

Tube sites just steal content and make money from advertising. If NBC stole all of CBS's programming, then you're analogy would work. And lets be real, the vast majority of tube sites making real money are the ones packed with stolen content.

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tony286

well said

tony286

you said the net is going to free. Im saying that's not true IMO. Commerce grows on the net every year. Giving shit away isnt a business model for 98 percent of businesses. If most of the big illegal tubes had to pay for their content, youtube included. They would all be out of business, so a model based on theft of others goods to make money is not a business model.

Paul Markham

It's not what I said. But I do agree with you about the numbers. What I said was they meet the customers needs BETTER than we do as an industry. Surf Tube sites and you see how frustrating they are. The content is usually a rag tag of scenes you may or may not like, the speed is awful, the quality worse. And some after you've sampled a few scenes you do not like lock you out. That's not meeting the real needs of porn consumers. It might be meeting them better than we do though.

The people surfing Tube sites are people who want to get off to anything barely watchable for 20 minutes then leave. They might do it every night but their tastes and values of porn are very low. If they are the people we are trying to sell a months membership to and hoping they will rebill we are the ones who have it wrong.

Let's go back to the question of why the Internet should never be free. And porn will never be free.

If all paid porn disappeared there would be no people to advertise or convert on the free porn sites. It's that simple, the free porn sites need the paid porn sites to pay for them. The Tubes need to make money,

So let's assume War Child meant just paysites and dating and cam sites remain. Still not enough money coming in to pay the Tubes sites bills. Plus the millions of surfers hitting Tube sites because there are no paysites will sink them. People who don't want a date, cam site or betting, they just want to jerk off and watch porn. They will not upsell so they are just a drain on the site.

Paysites must remain to keep free sites viable. The ones that do are the ones who think ahead. The only problem would be if the main stream started to advertise on porn sites. Do you see Coca Cola spending money on a porn sites advert?

It's easy to make empty statements without thinking and without putting anything to back it.

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Dave_Lethal

Tube sites are annoying, but some are willing to cooperate as far as taking down your content goes, I emailed one of them so much that I have a producer account that I can use to remove our stuff

Paul Markham

Anything new would very likely not sell. Porn has been around for millenniums and as we know it a major product for decades. Bang Bros were hailed as doing something new by picking up a girl is a vehicle. It was old hat, they did it differently and that was part of the key to their success.

The problem is only a minority put any thought into the content they produce or buy in. Most of the time it's the same as on 1000s of other sites. Why buy a membership to a porn site that has 50 scenes that are exactly the same as as a site that has 500 or even 5000 scenes? Both sites are the same price, because the affiliates demand it, and over all the quality is the same.

The problem is that when it comes to the content budget most sponsors buy on price. So if a shooter has a twist in the set up to make it different that will cost money he loses out to someone who shoots on the minimum budget. I recently discussed shooting "Old on Young" content with a sponsor. I had an idea to make the scenes different and give the site a unique theme. The idea will cost about $200 a scene. He went with the guy shooting the cheap stuff. A guy who uses foreign speaking males so no chat is on the site. Also the budget would not allow for the best new models, so it's girls who can't get work shagging guys who can't talk on camera as it's then obviously Eastern European. But it was cheap.

Who would keep buying from an industry that delivered a product like that? It's just one example of the content we all produce as an industry. There are many many more. Pointing out one site who does it right does not alter the fact that 50 others do it wrong.

The problem is this is the standard we as an industry have set ourselves. We then blame Tubes for letting our customers have an alternative.

War Child can side track this as much as he likes with lies. But the truth is I have never gone back on an agreement, prove it and I will agree to it. www.5dollarsporn.com had CCBILL billing perfectly and yes I was wrong in only Eva having control of the finances. Something I got through, paid my bills and carried on trading.

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Paul Markham

Agreed 100%

The sites that survive will be the ones that meet the surfers needs. They will produce what he needs and not what the industry needs.

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ADL Colin

Agreed. And given the alexa ratings the porn surfer wants tube sites.

What the industry needs depends on who you mean by "the industry". But it is the same thing for every industry. We all want our best competitors to go away.

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ADL Colin

If I didn't state it clearly the first time I hope I clarified in my last few posts. My point was CERTAINLY not that EVERYTHING will be free.

However by far the most common business model on the net is to give something away for free and sell advertising. What % of porn sites would YOU estimate are free vs paid?

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CarlosTheGaucho

Well,

I would say that the only thing that actually enabled all this, in many times very mediocre and same looking porn with artificial moans / shaved asses and douche male talent to be ever shot was the limited accesibility / the feel of something that's taboo and rare for you.

That's how you were able to charge 100 USD for one tape in the 70's and that's how you were able to market the same crappy stuff over and over to its customers on DVD's / magazines etc. (of course even this was getting tougher and tougher once the market gor really oversaturated and profit margins went on decline).

More offer also makes the customer more demanding.

But still, no matter what you were selling, at least you had a chance that someone actually buys your stuff cause it's not just one stop away for free, whether you manage to sell a crappy product and make ten times more money than someone who sells a really cool product, that's just your business.

The whole magic and potential of selling video is to get it in front of the eyeballs of someone who's in the right mood and making him pay before he gets off, it's not a rocket science to figure out what is enough to satisfy the majority of your audience, and it more or less worked for a very long time.

In other words till there's a limited access to it, it will still work.

Say the younger geeky guys will be always able to find their stuff for free (why to pay for porn? I don't know anyone younger than say in their late twenties that would ever pay for porn), but what happens is that now every sheep capable of a left mouse button click can get into the free porn heaven.

The whole "business" model of giving away something, that will still be demanded by almost every single male with mediocre taste, capable of a boner and therefore with a potential to be discretely exploted for years is retarded.

Anyway, It's out already and the damage can not be taken back, unless there will be serious legal regulations in place or this biz turns into a gentlemen's club of highly organized / moral / united and elite businessmen.

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ADL Colin

Hmmm. Didn't you give red tube FREE content for sending traffic to you?

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ADL Colin

haha ;-) ;-)

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the Shemp

do you guys remember when a decent size TGP was shut down for illegal content. ?
http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showthread.php?t=42386

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Paul Markham

I gave them free samplers.

Agreed Carlos. A lot of people in this business could only make money if the customer were forced to buy. Now the customer has an option they will go down. Everyone will suffer because the guy who wants 20 minutes of anything will not not buy. He's better catered for by the free stuff.

So the industry has to look to satisfying a niche audience. That can be a main niche like teens, but presented in a way that makes it personal to the viewer.

Solo girl sites with the girls online everyday to greet members. Yes live webcam on your paysite.
Hardcore sites shot with real sex and not the fake stuff.
Set ups to a scene, otherwise the scene is just about sex.
Sites that offer the surfer what he needs at a price he's willing to pay.
Getting away from the idea the key to success is to put up another site that's no different from the thousand other sites going up this month and marketing the hell out of it.

Throwing mud at a wall in the hope it sticks does not work anymore.

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d-null

thanks for that link Shemp, very interesting

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Paul Markham

They shot the guy who was looking out for pirates and thieves. How many of his critics are now complaining Tubes and Pirates are shutting them down?

This industry has done little to stop content theft. Ironic now it faces a threat from illegal content.

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gideongallery

right on paul i remember way back when tv first came into existance we had 36 hours of content a day on hundreds of channels, it shrunk down to only 24 hour of content on 5 major channels.

pretty soon it will be done to two hour a day on only one channel.

oh wait i got that backwards it went from one channel broadcasting 2 hours a day of content to 5 channels broadcasting 24 hours of content a day all for free.

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CrkMStanz

got nothing against you, and not trying to be insulting - but your analogies suck

unless you steal your TV signal
or use rabbit ears
or you are stuck in the '60s

TV may be cheap - but its not free - try another analogy

or maybe i'm missing your witty sarcasm - in which case I apologize - its early

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Kudles

No I don't think so

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gideongallery

basic cable is fixed fee charge, sort of like the high speed dsl service
the parallel is very relevant because without the high speed dsl service they would have no access to tube sites either.

the solutions from tv would work in porn,
product placement (knight rider, alias, lost etc)
moving reality based content (american gladiator)
live interaction (dancing with the stars, american idol)

would also work, you have to stop thinking about exclusive and rarity as a marketing value and look towards brandability, and the eyeballs that are generated.

long term survival goes to those who realize the shift and move ahead of the curve.

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gideongallery

oh and by the way
tubes are to the porn industry what the vcr was to the television industry in the 60s so your "stuck in the 60s" comment is equally flawed.

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tony286

pay per view and for adult those things dont work.

tony286

this whole theory people are looking for free and looking for cheap as possible. If that was the case clips4sale wouldnt be as big as they are especially when you consider. On avg people are charging a $1 a minute for clips.
The problem is adult is the industry of people making money inspite of themselves for the most part and now things are slowing down people are panicking and grasping at straws.

DVTimes

tubesites have killed porn (pay) sites.

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Michaelious

Business models constantly change, so it's really a case of finding a way to change and compete against the tube sites.

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SpicyM

compete? you mean to offer 2 hour movies?

gideongallery

well right now one of those is already proven to work
live interaction it what is paying for the tube sites
aff, cam sites those are all examples of live interaction

the others have not been established yet

before reese pieces let their product be featured in ET and agreed to subsidize the advertising budget by running some ET/reese pieces ads companies expected to be paid to have their product featured.

M&M wanted to be paid a million dollars for their candy to be featured.


it just a matter of turning something that is a cost into a product placement to start that marketplace in the adult video market.

reality type sites are also the same way.

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kahell

put those big watermark on your content so that surfers knows where to go to if they want more of your original content

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mynameisjim

Tony404 has said it several times in this thread and it should be repeated. Up until now, many people in this business made their money in spite of themselves. In the early days, most of the big guys made their money with shady dialers or pushing piss-poor websites. Very few adult businesses have ever put the customer first.

Now, this past year or so has seen a decline in sales and what's the biggest solution the industry has come up with? Hiding cross sales and stealing content.

We are selling a product that is borderline addictive and humans are compelled to watch it. How stupid do you have to be to fuck it up? It's like a heroin dealer with no repeat customers.

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Paul Markham

Yes let's compare TV stations with porn. TV stations can get anyone to advertise, they can be watched for hours on end by all the family, they are in everyone's home and no one thinks twice. Just exactly like porn.

You might as well compare a cow to an chicken. They both have legs and live on a farm.

This shows how flawed your argument is. Flawed or what?

So should I ask AFF if they would like to fund movies where I get the stars to meet via an advert on their site or maybe just have the girl wearing a AFF T shirt?

Been approached and they are not interested. Asked a lot of companies about this and got nothing. I resorted to asking lube and sex toys companies to give me free samples to place in our films. The answer was no, even when I offered to shoot them a scene.

Maybe Redtube would fund me to shoot movies where the guy is jerking off to free porn and a girl appears to join him. That was a sarcastic joke.

Like I said you can't compare what work for a cow and apply it to chickens.

So what product placement do you propose?

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Zester

3. never trade traffic with a tubesite (if you own a tgp or toplist or linklist or whatever)

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Sausage

Well I actually upload to my own tube site, and get killer conversions on good content (try 1:200-1:300!). Its the content that sells and really good content does sell, even on tube sites. Of course most videos are 2-4 mins in length, and we don't have the hugest player and also don't allow long clips or clips that appear stolen.

Get easily 100 video uploads a day, and we only take 20, but I know from using my own traffic you do make sales if the content is good enough! Unfortunately 90% of tubes that take uploads either don't allow watermarks, and don't give space for a clickable url which makes them utterly useless from a webmasters point of view.

You wanna do a tube site right, limit the length and quality, allow reasonable watermarks, allow a clickable url, so that you aren't relying on stolen content uploads ... because what webmaster is going to submit if they can't get traffic back? Tgp worked that out a long time ago, why are most tube site owners so damn greedy they can't see past their own short term traffic hoarding goals?

Tubes can make good money, and really work with the general wm/sponsor community much like tgps still do, though its the greedy fucks and people with no regard for other's content rights who are screwing this for everyone.

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Paul Markham

Clips 4 Sale make us some very nice money and it works. One look at the site and you can see why it works and why so many paysites don't or struggle.

C4S caters to people looking for specific niches, even teen niches. They want porn in the theme or niche or style that arouses THEM. The sites that work today are also the same type of sites or mega sites or sites with a fantastic traffic machine behind them. Or very good sites.

Sadly this industry in the main has gone the other way. It has put up 1,000s of sites full of bland porn that has no real merit, theme or niche. Some of the niche sites are run by people who are clueless about the niche, it works because the people driving the traffic are clueless about it as well. Scenes with plastic models going through the motions shot by people who still think a person only needs a camera and a model to be a pornographer.

In my 30 years of shooting porn I have never encountered so many bad models as today. They have never been taught how to do their job because in general the people shooting don't know either. This industry largely comprises of computer operators, traffic guys, programmers and designers. I forgot the "get rich quick" guys. ;)

So after ten years we have a situation where most surfers don't want to pay for the product we produce. Clips 4 Sale proves that many surfers will pay, over and over again, for the porn they want to pay for.

Until this industry produces porn that's worth signing up for, stops ripping off surfers and stops thinking the solution is to send more traffic, Tube sites will be a problem for many.

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Paul Markham

Best post so far.

Sadly the only solution most think of are close down Tube sites, dreamers, don't trade traffic with them and stop sending traffic to the sponsors who support Tubes. Small wonder the business is in trouble. They still think the customer has to be forced rather than won back.

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Paul Markham

The flaw in your argument is most people in the business would not know good content from bad. They base the quality of porn on the clarity/size of the image. Or on the price.

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Zester

you can fucking say that again !
in all my years promoting foot fetish sites, from day 1 I always had the ability to spot if the content was made by a foot fetishist in less than 10 seconds looking at the tours and preview clips.

some will say that you don't need to know the niche in order to produce and promote it, well I say that whatever you are making now from a fetish niche is NOTHING compared to what you can do if the male models have the fetish, and the web designer has it.

that ONE reason why C4S is working so well, the CONTENT PRODUCER HAS THE FETISH IT IS SELLING AND THERFORE KNOWS JUST WHAT THE CUSTOMER WANTS !

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Paul Markham

Some will say what ever comes into their heads or what ever they do is the way to do it. But think of real life. How many butchers are vegetarians or anorexics make chefs? Not a lot and no good ones.

I'm always being asked to shoot a niche I simply do not understand by a sponsor program who don't understand it either. Do they understand the niches or employ people who do or get shooters and models who understand it. Or are they just throwing up another site and throwing traffic at it? The aim of many is to get up a site or group of sites, tempt 1,000 affiliates to send traffic and then move onto the next niche site.

And we blame the Tube sites for taking our traffic.

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gideongallery

so no one advertises or buys traffic in adult Bullshit
so what if coke or pepsi don't want their product featured there is always someone who will. The key is that you have to prove your the value of the product placement there are tons of potential oppertunities anyone who wants traffic could benefit from such a placement.



what was the q-ratio of that product placement. and how much money did you ask for.

if you did establish the value of the placement by a proven metric and ask for lless money then what it would cost to get the same level of brand awareness you are going to succeed.

again what was the q-ratio, what was the value of the products you asked for
what were the restrictions you placed on the use of that scene.

i would think it had more to do with the lack of the offer then the fundamental inability to product placement

i am pretty sure if you gave someone an exclusive 30 minute scene in exchange for a $30 dildo that lots of people would be jumping at such an offer. Obviously you couldn't make money at that price point, but i think you see my point, without knowing the conditions of the offer there is no way for anyone to tell if it because you failed to understand the fundamentals of product placement and made an insanely stupid proposal or if product placement does not work.

i have already mentioned that white labeling a store and promoting that would be the first step. Instead of trying to get someone to sponsor your video based on an unfounded theory intergrate the product placement for your own sex toy store, cam portal, or dating site.

intergrate the story in effectively and produce a good porn story around the products

generate a video with a good q-ratio and then track the results.

once you can prove that product placement generated $x in revenue you can sell that placement for $x * profit margin %. if you sell it for less many people will clamoring to buy your product placement.

Look going back to the ET example when speilberg was making the deal he believed that he was never going to get the advertising subsidy for his movie, it was only going to kick in if sales increased 25% but he didn't care because he saved a million dollars in fees. Reeses did it because it was a screw you effect to one of their biggest competitors who was dominating the marketplace, and they only would have seen cost if they broke the 25% increase. They honestly thought they were going to get a small bump in sales at the movie theaters only (10-15%) as people bought the candy while watching the movie. They saw it as an oppertunity to get penetration in that locked out marketplace. They did not expect to see people buy their candy outside the theaters.

the first couple of deals are going to be really good for the people placing the products if you expect mainstream product placement money out of the gate you will get nothing.

If you don't understand the metrics you will get nothing

if you ask for to much you will get nothing.

and if you can't prove the value of the product placement you will get nothing.

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GonZo

This thread is uninformed on so many levels.

Jens Van Assterdam

AlienQ invented tubes!

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