d-null

as far as the entire issue as a whole goes, I believe the bottom line is that sometimes death is necessary in this world, even for humans, but added cruelty and torture should never be condoned

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baddog

Oh, I don't know. Maybe the guy that is putting out the money to run the operation. You're a pretty funny guy, but I was going to call it a night.

KillerK

I'm all for cheaper chicken and meat. Although the guys who pushed that cow in that was sick should get introuble. not for harming the animal but for selling meat that could be bad.

They are ANIMALS, they have no rights, they don't need rights...

moeloubani

children maybe, but not babies

and dogs do know what pain is but they dont self reflect on it like we do, like its pain at the instinct level not at the emotional level

and about the purpose thing: when you are bred and brought onto earth for consumption, that is your purpose...pretty simple...and if you want to argue if we have the right to breed animals strictly for the purpose of eating them then make the argument with nature and the food chain, because thats just how things are.

stop fucking around people you cant seriously believe that animals have feelings, you give humans no fucking credit. we are vastly superior to animals. sure some animals can do some things better than us, but no other animal can feel and self reflect, plan things out and communicate like us.

if you show a hyena its picture in a mirror its not going to see itself, its going to see another hyena, and it will react accordingly and thats the same with every animal even humans at a very early age

to say that a chicken clucking about like a little chicken is pissed that it is in a small cage assumes that the chicken knows that its a chicken and knows that somewhere else there is something better and knows that things would be better if it got out, and i assure you it has no fucking clue about any of those things. after all, its just a chicken.

same with dogs, cats, donkeys, horses, chimps, pigs, ants, rats and mice, all of them

they just live to reproduce, at a very basic level of existence, but nowhere near to what humans have

d-null

some animals may even have some stronger emotions than humans, but I would agree wth you that humans do have the strongest intellect.... still no reasons to condone unnecessary suffering in all but humans, that is arrogance

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pocketkangaroo

In that case, do you condone the chopping of of the noses of those with severe mental deficiencies?. How about locking severely autistic children in cages so they can't move for months at a time? These individuals can't look at themselves and reflect upon their day. So by your standards, there is really no need to show them any semblance of decency.

An animal cries for the same evolutionary reason we cry. It played some role in their ability to survive. Crying in both species is just a set of hormones releasing and brain receptors triggering. It's completely biological in both of us. The fact we can sit and write poems about our sadness doesn't make our emotion more "real".

And the statement that we are the only creature on the Earth with feelings is a complete lack of understanding of biology. The limbic system which handles emotions in our brains has been found in species all the way back to tetrapods.

The booby is a bird that only has one partner it's entire life. Hens have hierarchy in their roosts. Lions battle each other for power. Fish have been shown to have their own personalities. These emotions from trust, to love, to respect are all in animals. We all have fight or flight receptors that determine our level of fear.

And you can try and dumb it down by saying it's only their instinct, but the same can be said for us. Feelings and emotions are all just biological aspects of our bodies that were put in place for some evolutionary benefit. We are all living off instinct. We all share many of the same neurotransmitters. So while our understanding of our emotions is much more profound than other animals, it doesn't mean they don't share many of the same ones we do.

But none of this is really relevant to the conversation. This isn't about giving voting rights to Chickens. It's showing common decency toward another animal. It's about not torturing an animal by subjecting it to unnecessary pain. Pain is an emotion all animals feel and try to avoid. If a chicken was just some mindless zombie, they wouldn't run away and screech when you pluck out one of their feathers.

All people are saying is show some level of compassion toward another species. We have evolved to a level where we don't need to resort to this kind of stuff to survive.

Dvae

papill0n

I could have never worded it that well. Kudos to you man.

Fuck anyone who is ok with cruelty to animals.

StuartD

By that reasoning, no white people in the US would be allowed to vote and the entire US would be a very different place.

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cherrylula

You can't tell something like that from a picture.

Have you ever had a farm animal as a pet?

When I was a kid, we had goats. I swear, the baby goats are just like puppies. In fact I thought it was cooler because we got to bottle feed them.

I know we are at the top of the food chain, I appreciate that. But really, these animals do have feelings and are very intelligent.

Then one day the goat ate my dad's pot plant behind the garage, and ended up getting sent off to a farm sanctuary. We found her passed out by the garage all stoned. Dad was ready to butcher her up for dinner, mom said no way.

and yes, this was in So Cal too.

ContentSHOOTER

Hell yes, everyone on this board is entirely clueless except for you

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sltr

i wonder how baddog's vegan daughter feels about the issue.

Based on data from moving companies, California had the second-highest domestic population out-flow of any state. more people have been moving out of the state than moving in for years and years now. it's THE biggest reason the state has a budget deficit of what, $14b and has had budget deficits every year for years.

and if you think 5 generations makes you native californian, then your knowledge of the history of california needs updating

5 gens puts that 1st baddog in california ~150ish years ago, that makes the baddogs arriving in cali in the 1850s.

that was during the time of THE biggest influx of non-californians to california (the gold rush) in the history of the state and the main event for wiping out the #s of true native californians



also, anyone who has spent time around a rescued abused animal has witnessed the lingering effects that animal has from the abusive environment.

+ no need to mention that i just moved here, i was born in long beach and educated in nocal and have spent more than 1/2 my life in california

AaliyahLove

BadDog!! You don't love your dog?! Ok, I'm gna have to bow out of this convo, firstly because it is lowering my intelligence level, but its also making me very very sad, I truely hope you don't really believe the stuff you are saying and just trying to stir up some drama.. I'm gna go cook myself a vege burger and take my dog for a nice long walk.. because it makes him HAPPY XOXO

baddog

It is scary because I figured you were one of the smart guys here, but the fact that you think instinct and emotion are the same thing amazes me.

Do you think the booby has one partner for life because they are "in love" with each other? Do you think salmon swim upstream because they are homesick? Lions battle for power because it is survival of the fittest and the ability to fuck any lioness in the pride. It isn't an emotional thing, it is instinct and survival.

The maternal instinct is just that, an instinct.

baddog

Really? Someone can't be the native of a state unless they are an Indian?

hmmm, when did she become a vegan? She failed to mention that to me.

Kudles

Sorry I disagree

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JaneB

Animals do have feelings. It is crazy for you to claim that they do not. Animals do more then just reproduce. I am shocked at the amount of studity in this thread. Now I know why people join PETA.

psili

Aside from the whole animal rights issue, doesn't the farm-raised, happy chicken taste better than its counterpart occupying position x:323,y:56 of some warehouse?

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CDSmith

Everyone sounds more up in arms about the chickens than the gays.

Now that's funny.

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psili

How much for your baby child?
Was it breast fed?
Did the mother eat well while pregnant?
It hasn't reached the "children" state, has it? I've got a Hungarian chef who makes a mean veal and figured she could do something special with "baby".

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CDSmith

I'm sure chickens can be processed cost-effectively without the use of unnecessary cruelty. Whether they "feel things" the same way we do or not is immaterial, it's really about common decency and compassion. I'll eat the damn thing, but I'm not down with some of the methods I've heard some companies use to handle their stock.

I'm sure somewhere in the world there's a well-run chicken operation that doesn't employ what most would describe as torturous methods and still turn a profit. Has to be, and if so surely the rest can likewise get their shit together.

That said, I am strangely craving a large feed of KFC right now.

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sltr

i thought i recalled a time when you said she ate mostly natural foods, you asked me what natural foods restaurant it was where i had gone in rb since she had been to most.

no biggie, i was just loaded up on coffee this morning and fucking back with you.

now if you will excuse me, i am off to have 4 fried chickens and a coke.

MovieMaster

Oh well just kiss them farms good bye will probbly just pack up and do business in another state.

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insane_diver

I actually grew up on a poultry ranch in Northern CA, so I actualy know a thing or three about chickens.

Prop 2 is mainly centered around egg producing birds, not meat producers.
Beaks are trimmed due to the fact that chickens are canabalistic, they will peck to death and eat other chickens given the chance

The space requirements from prop 2 will reduce the amount of egg laying hens that a rancher can keep in a certain amount of space. This will result in the price of eggs raising.

The best cure for vegetarian hippies is to bbq them for 25 min per side, serve with a red wine.

Cory W

Several years ago, crate training became the popularized method of training dogs to use the bathroom outside. Being someone that subscribed to the method, I can tell you it works. Typically, I would put the puppy in the crate at an early age, then take it out for the bathroom. I did this with both dogs for roughly one week. This isn't to say I didn't take them out, run them around, etc (although they were very young and incapable of running). I let them on my lap while I watched TV, etc. It was tough for me to do, but I was happy with the results. Both dogs learned to go outside for the bathroom quickly.

Now-a-days, it's almost terrible to watch what "crate training" has turned into. Now you have people with the earnest belief that animals belong in cages and don't need to run around. Lots of people just get up and go to work for 9 hours and leave their dog in a small crate. My favorite are the people that tell you dogs have no sense of space. It's unreal. Your post is absolutely dead on, well-stated, and is, seemingly, obvious.

My thoughts.

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baddog

I guess the only way to know is to have a bake off and find out, although I suspect it is the same as adding coke to a premium bourbon. One you throw the mixer in there isn't much difference.

Tell me about it.

I have to ask, is it torture to clip the tail on a doberman? What about the ears? Same thing. To call it torture to cut a chickens beak or to not force him to scratch the dirt for his food is laughable.


Vegetarian does not equal vegan. Vegans are a little over the top . . . as long as it suits them.

They won't have much choice.

Commercial egg farms in CA will be a thing of the past.

Peaches

Prop 2 had absolutely nothing to do with free range or cage free. It makes the cages bigger. Period. Nothing will happen to help the animals - the egg/chicken/veal/pig farmers will just leave CA for a state where they don't have to spend $$$ to add a few inches to a cage.

cyberpod

When I was a kid and chicken still came in a bucket my dad had us believing the little pieces of crust or whatever in the bottom were chicken beaks. Now your telling me they don't have beaks? I need therapy!! Besides, free range chickens have more muscle from moving around so they are not as tender. Thank god there's still veal.

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baddog

Veal is included in Prop 2 as well.

Peaches

You'd think if people were worried about the chicken's feelings they wouldn't feel good about stealing their future babies out from under the hens and eating them ;)

In my grocery store the "cage free" happy chicken eggs are $5 for a dozen and the regular unhappy chicken eggs are $2.50. For shits and grins I went crazy and spent the extra on the happy eggs a few weeks ago. They tasted exactly the same as the unhappy eggs.

I like organic chicken, but I'm pretty sure they're raised in cages too.

Having a grandfather with a cattle ranch I'm pretty much of the "they are raised for food" mind. Gordon Ramsay had some good shows on his F-Word series where he raised turkeys and pigs in his back yard for food to show his kids that the meat on their table didn't magically come from the grocery store.

baddog

I was at dinner with some people in Phoenix (or Vegas). The waiter was all about giving his speech about all the specials and how the individual ingredients had been grown, gathered and brought in bu the locals via mule or yak. Included in the specials was organic chicken, raised by a local woman, that had been bottle fed milk.

After Shock Media

Biggest difference between the farmed locally eggs and the commercial ones are this.
1. Color - Not only do you get shell variation (whooptie) you also get more yellow yolks.
2. Freshness - the farm eggs are much fresher. You can see this more when and if you separate the yolk from the white. You can actually toss the yolk from hand to hand without it breaking. This also leads to eggs that do not run as much, have a higher yolk when done sunny side up etc.

That is about it. Unless you add in the possibility of hormones, antibiotics, etc. that could be carried in the egg. I personally do go with the farmed locally ones, primary cause I get them down the street and they are 4 for a dollar, 5 if I bring my own container.

Yes animals raised for food are food. Still do not buy the argument about raising them in fucked up ways. This just works for all sorts of products we consume even beyond feed animals. Example's are that commercial turkeys have more breast meat but now taste like nothing and can not even breed themselves anymore. Some caged animals are also more prone to sickness that requires treatment using antibiotics and shit that can end up making certain viruses even stronger and more resistant, not to mention when assorted flu's have jumped from avian to human.

There are also plenty of commercial farms that have always done stuff the proper way, while keeping production up, sickness down without wide use of antibiotics, and not having to stuff as many animals into a space as possible. Meanwhile they also are price competitive.

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davidd

... and this thread shows just how hosed California is.

BadDog - I hear you on the influx to California and I feel for you. This mentality flocks to where it is allowed to fester and then it envelopes everything around it... and pushes the sane people out and the remaining natives to laughter/insanity.

JaneB

Good luck to them. Several states have passed the same type of prop.

After Shock Media

They will not move. Just like about everyone who says they will move if so and so is elected or whatever.

You move and then your transport costs go up. Therefor you end up in no better of a situation than you left. Assuming as people state that it is price/consumer driven. Transport, packaging, and feed are the big costs.

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pocketkangaroo

Instinct is your body's way of reacting to an emotional stimulant. They react in unison. When someone comes at you with a knife, your emotion is fear and your instinct is to run. This is no different than the fear a bird has when you get too close to it.

Lets take training an animal for example. When you teach your dog to go to the bathroom outside, that is his emotions at work. Whether it's a fear of being punished or the joy of receiving a reward, his emotional receptors dictate how he reacts. There is no instinct to only poop on a leash when being walked. If an animal such as that only worked off their biological instinct, they would shit wherever they wanted to.

Of course the booby doesn't have one partner for life because they are "in love". Just as we aren't monotonous because of "love". There is no such thing as love. It's just chemicals and neurotransmitters reacting in your body to certain situations. When we buy chocolates or write a poem to a loved one, it's no different from a bird spreading his feathers or bowing his beak in courtship. We are both doing it to satisfy an emotion that was necessary for our survival.

You mention mourning, but that is more of a cultural phenomenon. It's impossible to judge the emotions of other animals in these situations. For instance, early homo sapiens didn't mourn the death of fellow members of their tribe. When we did start having rituals, they evolved culturally over time. This didn't mean that our early ancestors didn't feel sadness, they just didn't express it the way we do. But there are examples of animals mourning their dead. Elephants touch the skulls and tusks of their dead with their trunks and feet.

You are trying to differentiate us because we are self-aware of our emotions. But it doesn't deny the fact that animals have them. They have fear, hunger, trust, respect, joy, and others just like us. We share many of the same chemical makeup and neurotransmitters.

But emotions are beside the point that some of us were making. This is also about pain. These animals are tortured and put in positions where they suffer through constant pain. I guarantee that if your dog came to you whimpering with a broken leg, you wouldn't laugh it off and call it his "instincts". You would take him to a vet and do what you could so that he doesn't have to feel that pain. Heck, you probably would get him some treats too. So why not show the same common decency to another animal?

PurrrsianPussyKat

LOL Obviously the irony in my post was lost on you totally.
Isn't it ironic to you that people are worried about how an animal is treated, before it's head is chopped off and we eat it?

I only buy free range eggs and I pay more for them, and I'm fine with that. Hopefully the egg layer still had it's beak!

I think every animal should be treated in a humane manner. Doesn't being at the top of the food chain make it our duty as responsible humans to treat all other animals humanely? Imagine if babies were tasty and we kept women in rooms big enough for a bed. Baby pops out and they inseminate her again. Is that really any different?
Oh, but she's a person, right? She has feelings. Unlike a "dumb animal". How presumptuous of us to think we even begin to know anything about animals and how they think.

Guess I shouldn't be surprised since there's millions of planets in our universe and we think we are the only intelligent life in it... and I say intelligent loosely as I've been reading gfy for years and brains is something I find in short supply around here.

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CDSmith

I realise you're prepared to argue this to the death, but I'll have one more go anyway. It's my understanding that most responsible pet owners take their dogs to a vet who ensures that proper anaesthesia be administered before clipping tails or bobbing ears. My own dog had a few minor surgical procedures done in his lifetime and I can assure you he was well looked-after and prepped to my satisfaction before anything was done to him.

If the beak-snipping and extreme confinement isn't necessary (and I'm quite sure it isn't) then why condone it? Nothing is laughable about abuse.

The last word is of course yours. Enjoy. :D

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Peaches

Human baby boys get their weenies operated on w/o anesthesia. But in 7 years, the hen laying chickens in CA will legally be required to have a few extra inches in their cages ;)

Again, Proposition 2 does nothing to provide cage free, free range or even stop the removal of beaks. It was a fluff proposition if you're truly concerned about the well being of the animals.

d-null

one baby step at a time and perhaps awareness will improve as well

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PurrrsianPussyKat

Go google pics of little boys faces when that's being done.
My son has everything he was born with.
If it wasn't meant to be there, it wouldn't be.

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baddog

You don't believe in evolution I guess.

What are tonsils there for?

PurrrsianPussyKat

LOL Chopping off half of your son's cock is evolution now?

The tonsils are areas of lymphoid tissue on either side of the throat.
Like other organs of the lymphatic system, the tonsils act as part of the immune system to help protect against infection. In particular, they are believed to be involved in helping fight off pharyngeal and upper respiratory tract infections.

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CDSmith

You're probably right, and I'm probably inclined to agree with you, but aside from all that my point really is that if something they're doing to the animals is unduly cruel and basically unnessesary then they should stop doing it, that's all. I'm completely in agreement with After Shock Media on this.

I don't see where what I said is something to argue about. Lloyd, you listening?


That's not really what you think cirumcision is, is it?

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PurrrsianPussyKat

Well what do you call removing the skin that goes around the outside?
Fashionable mutilation?

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CDSmith

I call it removing the skin, not "chopping half his cock off". If that were the case then my dick would have been 16" had it not been done to me.


Btw, yes I'm cut, no regrets at all here.

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CDSmith

All these side arguments are useless. I thought this discussion was about the treatment of food animals, which I think should be treated as humanely as possible while they're alive and then killed quickly with as little suffering as possible.

I don't see that being too much to ask.

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baddog

Way to miss the point . . . and I was not talking about to circumsize or not to circumsize.

My point is that humans have not always looked like we do now (a lot less hair for example). Do you know why we used to have more hair than we do now? Evolution. The point being that just because we have it today doesn't mean we will have it tomorrow.

PurrrsianPussyKat

Soooo.. your point was that 500 yrs from now, dicks won't have the skin on the outside because we keep chopping it off? *scratches head*

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baddog

Tonsils . . .